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Han's second shooter
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:58 pm    Post subject: Han's second shooter Reply with quote

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ix4etp3hI2s#

And they forgot the evidence that there is no blast mark, so was it even a blaster bolt?
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: Han's second shooter Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ix4etp3hI2s#

And they forgot the evidence that there is no blast mark, so was it even a blaster bolt?


I think the reason this was so controversial, wasn't because Greedo shooting made no sense, plenty of things make no sense in movies and no one minds. But because we learned so much, so quickly, about who Han Solo is when he shot Greedo under the table. Even if only subconsciously, people were aware that a serious apple cart had been upset. Hence we're still making T-Shirts, youtube videos, and a specific scene in Solo to refute this whole thing. And it can't only be about attacking it for being different: no one feels obliged tackle any of the other added scenes in this way, no matter how strange they were. This change in particular really grates on the culture for some reason.

When I repeat ad nauseam "Watch ANH to see how to develop characters through action", Han shooting Greedo is one of the key items I'm talking about.

Personally, I think the 2nd shooter was Chewbacca. However there are conflicting theories for Chewbacca's motivation. Chewie may have been trying to create a justification for Han acting in self defense as this video suggests. He may have been trying to kill Han with an opportunity for passing it off as an accident. This gets into the idea that the unpleasant truth of SW history has been swept under the rug: Chewbacca was actually Han's wookie slave. The entire movie Solo was filmed as a cover-up for Han's maltreatment of Chewbacca.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Han's second shooter Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
...no one feels obliged tackle any of the other added scenes in this way, no matter how strange they were...


Shistavanen Wolfman fans unite! Long live Lak Sivrak!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Han's second shooter Reply with quote

Pel wrote:
TauntaunScout wrote:
...no one feels obliged tackle any of the other added scenes in this way, no matter how strange they were...


Shistavanen Wolfman fans unite! Long live Lak Sivrak!


I feel obligated to convert an old WEG mini of him to hold a sniper rifle now!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:30 am    Post subject: Re: Han's second shooter Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
I think the reason this was so controversial, wasn't because Greedo shooting made no sense, plenty of things make no sense in movies and no one minds. But because we learned so much, so quickly, about who Han Solo is when he shot Greedo under the table. Even if only subconsciously, people were aware that a serious apple cart had been upset. Hence we're still making T-Shirts, youtube videos, and a specific scene in Solo to refute this whole thing. And it can't only be about attacking it for being different: no one feels obliged tackle any of the other added scenes in this way, no matter how strange they were. This change in particular really grates on the culture for some reason.

When I repeat ad nauseam "Watch ANH to see how to develop characters through action", Han shooting Greedo is one of the key items I'm talking about.

In the original scene, there are no blaster bolts shown at all. There is the sound of a single blast, a cloud of smoke, and Greedo falls over dead. I think the issue is quite simple.

Part of the drama of ANH is Han leaving the Rebels before the battle, and then swooping in and saving Luke at the last minute, allowing the Death Star to be destroyed. Han shooting Greedo first enhances the drama of the type of character Han is. So the first problem is, having Greedo shoot before Han weakens Han's character arc and the drama. Granted, it matters the most for first time viewers because after that we know Han comes back and saves Luke, which is why the first time my son watched ANH he did not see Greedo shoot first.

The second problem is Lucas' stated reason for changing it. He said it was confusing to younger children to see a good guy shoot first. That irked me because Lucas was in this instance trying to usurp my Parental Guidance. I don't need Lucas to show how Han is a good guy before he actually decides to be a good guy at the end of the film. After my son's first viewing of ANH, we talked about Greedo and Han shooting without being shot at first. He's a scoundrel at that point. PG. My son got it.

The other changes are mostly much needed enhancements like replacing the slow, slightly listing starfighter shots in the final battle, or fall into the "Whatever, George" category like changing Obi-Wan's dragon-cry to scare the Sand People or adding more rocks to Artoo's hiding place. Fans making a big deal about improvements or inconsequential changes are largely just upset because it it is changed from their childhood. Greedo's shot is a bigger deal, at least for first time viewers. But still, although I agree with the criticism of Greedo's shot, fans blow it out of proportion. It is literally sneeze and you'll miss it. After that initial viewing, we just watch Greedo's blast and not worry about. My son knows the original version, Lucas' reasoning for changing it, and my thoughts on it, so we just get on with the movie without any childhoods being raped.

Quote:
Personally, I think the 2nd shooter was Chewbacca. However there are conflicting theories for Chewbacca's motivation. Chewie may have been trying to create a justification for Han acting in self defense as this video suggests. He may have been trying to kill Han with an opportunity for passing it off as an accident. This gets into the idea that the unpleasant truth of SW history has been swept under the rug: Chewbacca was actually Han's wookie slave. The entire movie Solo was filmed as a cover-up for Han's maltreatment of Chewbacca

LOL.

Pel wrote:
TauntaunScout wrote:
...no one feels obliged tackle any of the other added scenes in this way, no matter how strange they were...

Shistavanen Wolfman fans unite! Long live Lak Sivrak!

Right on. In my SWU, Lak Sivrak is still there, sitting right behind the CG alien that replaced him. Shistavanens are a playable PC species in my game, but I think I've only had one Shistavanen PC IIRC.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Han's second shooter Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
or fall into the "Whatever, George" category


This is getting to the old line about "Why artists sell their paintings". Because if they don't get rid of them, they can't stop themselves from constantly going back and changing things on them.

I had no idea shistavanens were no longer canon. Wtf. Now I HAVE to do it. Good thing I have a few unpainted ones laying around somewhere.

I like the special editions overall. But I do feel it's super weird how they tried to erase the original ones from history and George didn't want the old ones released on new media anymore. If we hadn't all loved them just the way they were, he never would have had the chance to go back and make special editions, prequels, etc. and I feel like there's no respect for that basic truth. But he'd always hated the finished cantina scene, and it was always hugely popular, so he's kinda been out of touch with his audience since the early days.

I have a problem with adding Hayden Christiansen (and parties across the galaxy) to ROTJ but no one ever makes T-Shirts about that. All the ESB added scenes were fine IMO. I actually really liked adding Biggs back to the rebel hangar. I don't think the ANH Jabba scene works when I re-watch it a lot, but in 1997 I loved it. I'd been super curious about that scene from watching From Star Wars to Jedi when I was a little kid. It was really confusing at the age of 5ish, so it was good to get that box checked off in my mind.

I actually wonder if, with ever better and newer CGI, if the Jabba ANH scene couldn't be reworked yet again and be awesome.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Han's second shooter Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
Whill wrote:
or fall into the "Whatever, George" category

This is getting to the old line about "Why artists sell their paintings". Because if they don't get rid of them, they can't stop themselves from constantly going back and changing things on them.

I don't disagree with the general sentiment and it does seem to explain the Whatever George category of alternations, but I'm the anti-purist. There are three main altered versions of the CT films: the 1997 "special editions", the 2004 DVD versions, and the 2011 blu-ray versions. In each one he introduced many needed changes, but Whatever George changes crept in with them like the aforementioned Obi-Wan's dragon call that scared the Sand People and adding more rocks to Artoo's hiding place. However I have a long list of changes he still didn't make but should have. Some shots of lightsabers were color corrected, while others were inexplicably left incorrect. The X-wing space shots of Artoo's head that had the blue parts rendered black due to blue-screen - Some shots were corrected to blue while others were inexplicable left black. Lucas himself said that films are never finished only abandoned, and while that might just sound like justification for all the changes, it certainly is true that he left some things uncorrected. Call me crazy, but I like lightsaber blades to always have the same color (unless the color change is part of the story). I like Artoo's blue parts of his head to always be blue. I had hoped we would get one more final version of the films from Lucas that completely fixed everything, and back in 2011 I predicted that would happen in 2017 or 2018. But of course at the time I didn't know that the Disney sale would leave the CT abandoned by Lucas as of his 2011 version. Lucas sold his artwork so it is no longer his to change.

TauntaunScout wrote:
I had no idea shistavanens were no longer canon. Wtf. Now I HAVE to do it. Good thing I have a few unpainted ones laying around somewhere.

I like the special editions overall.

Good news. Shistavanens and Lak Sivrak are still canon, but of course not all of the EU lore about them still is. It's just that the Special Editions replaced the main shot of the wolfman with a new puppet alien back in 1997 (at least is wasn't CG). Lucas stated that the wolfman is not his company's creation and it was just a mask that the studio had available. It was only used in the first place because they ran out of time to finish all the aliens for the cantina screen, so I can understand the change even though I like the wolfman better than the alien that replaced him in that shot.

But yes, please do paint your mini and share the result! I for one would love to see it.

TauntaunScout wrote:
I don't think the ANH Jabba scene works when I re-watch it a lot, but in 1997 I loved it. I'd been super curious about that scene from watching From Star Wars to Jedi when I was a little kid. It was really confusing at the age of 5ish, so it was good to get that box checked off in my mind.

I actually wonder if, with ever better and newer CGI, if the Jabba ANH scene couldn't be reworked yet again and be awesome.

I had FSWtJ on VHS too. Jabba in the '97 Special Edition was rendered in the equivalent of Nintendo 64 graphics. Pretty crappy looking. I appreciated the intention of putting Jabba into ANH and the effort, but didn't care much for the end result.

A new CG render was done for the 2004 DVD version, and that one looks a lot better and matches the CG Jabba in TPM. And the part where Han steps on Jabba's tail is more realistic because Jabba visibly gets pissed and clenches his fist like he is about to fight Han, only to be smoothed over by Han talking about how Jabba is going to profit from his proposal. I liked it a lot more. (The blu-ray used the same Jabba but of course it was rendered in HD.) It probably could be improved more, but I don't think Disney wants to enrage the fandom any more that Lucas already did with all the alterations and Disney already has with TLJ. And Jabba in TPM and ANH already looks way better than the original muppet in RotJ (like the CG Yoda looks way better than the original muppet) so improving the graphics further would probably just make RotJ look worse by comparison. I have never advocated replacing the muppet Jabba and Yoda in the CT (only the horrible Yoda muppet in TPM which they finally did replace in the 2011 blu-ray). So I find that as of the blu-rays I am pretty much satisfied with Jabba and Yoda as they appear in all six films.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the Special Edition released in '97 I was excited about the new footage, but that quickly turned to outrage in the cantina. However, at the time I was willing to forgive Han's transformation until the Falcon's escape and subsequent TIE battle. Lucas spent untold hours working in a weird head bob for Han but couldn't be bothered to fix the green boxes around the TIEs. Holy misplaced priorities, Batman!
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pel wrote:
When the Special Edition released in '97 I was excited about the new footage, but that quickly turned to outrage in the cantina. However, at the time I was willing to forgive Han's transformation until the Falcon's escape and subsequent TIE battle. Lucas spent untold hours working in a weird head bob for Han but couldn't be bothered to fix the green boxes around the TIEs. Holy misplaced priorities, Batman!


I didn't notice or care about any of this before this thread. Green boxes, head bobs, R2-D2 being the wrong color... all news to me. Then again I never notice mistakes like the stormtrooper hitting his head on the door unless someone else shows them to me.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pel wrote:
When the Special Edition released in '97 I was excited about the new footage, but that quickly turned to outrage in the cantina. However, at the time I was willing to forgive Han's transformation until the Falcon's escape and subsequent TIE battle. Lucas spent untold hours working in a weird head bob for Han but couldn't be bothered to fix the green boxes around the TIEs. Holy misplaced priorities, Batman!

When I was a teenager, I always figured the green boxes were the visual signature of navigation/particle shields. It wasn't until I was a grown-up that I began to understand the limitations of FX technology...
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I want is a cleaned-up, HD version of the original OT without Lucas' later alterations. Sadly, I question whether that will ever come from any official source.

I'd be fine with them continuing to offer the SEs, but the additions are detrimental to the films.

Moreover, the 2004 DVDs were HORRIBLY handled. Swapped rear audio channels, lousy color-correction, a screwed up color palette that looks like your TV is in "torch mode," etc. And then LFL refused to admit that it was even a mistake. It was seriously amateurish. And the thing is, the company that handled the transfer -- Lowry Digital, which is now Reliance Media -- does AMAZING work. I have their Blu-Rays of the Bond series and North by Northwest, and they look absolutely gorgeous. So it was clearly LFL's handling of the post-scanning effects.

I gather the blu-rays from 2012 only fixed some of that.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still have the first two widescreen VHS box sets and laserdiscs, so I'm good until the players give out.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the VHS versions, too. The problem is I don't have a 4:3 display anymore, and definitely not a low-def one. All I have is my 1080p plasma now, and they do not display properly on modern equipment. Nor does the 2006 reissue of what are essentially the laserdisc rips. They're "widescreen" formatted for 4:3 displays, which looks like garbage on a modern display any way you slice it.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solo4114 wrote:
I have the VHS versions, too. The problem is I don't have a 4:3 display anymore, and definitely not a low-def one. All I have is my 1080p plasma now, and they do not display properly on modern equipment. Nor does the 2006 reissue of what are essentially the laserdisc rips. They're "widescreen" formatted for 4:3 displays, which looks like garbage on a modern display any way you slice it.


Being as that Star Wars home video re-releases are pretty much a license to print money, I'm sure Disney will get around to this eventually.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just imagine the good will Darth Maus could recoup with the estranged fandom if they cleaned up the Special Editions. There were plenty of things worth keeping - the open views of the clouds of Bespin from Cloud City were a welcome addition, for example - but reverting to the classic "Han shot first" scene would remove a huge bone of contention.
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