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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:05 am Post subject: |
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If I were creating a table that I would in my games, I'd use increments smaller than 1D and top out at a lower level. (Or roll more than 2D so that the highest levels are even more rare.) That's intended as a comment, not a criticism.
I do wonder if you might get greater utility for other folks if you had an easy way of scaling the table or else a series of tables. As a very simple idea one could scale the same table you have by using multiples of 1 pip instead of multiples of 1D. So you could scale down by using +1 or +2 pips for each +1D (+3 pips) in your table. You could scale up by using +4, +5, or +6 pips (i.e. +2D). A party full of PCs with the skills of Luke, Ben, Han, and Leia might need the challenge of the upscaling.
For Example
1 Pip Scaling
2D Result (Odds) = Crew Rating (Modifier)
2-4 = Green (+0)
5-7 = Average (+1)
8-9 = Seasoned (+2)
10-11 = Veteran (+1D)
12 = Elite (+1D+1)
+2 Pip Scaling
2D Result (Odds) = Crew Rating (Modifier)
2-4 = Green (+0)
5-7 = Average (+2)
8-9 = Seasoned (+1D+1)
10-11 = Veteran (+2D)
12 = Elite (+2D+2) |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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I based the spread on the Ship's Crew rule on pg. 34 of the Star Wars Rules Companion, where the spread on Crew skill level had a split of 5D or 6D (depending on whether the ship was Imperial or Alliance). YMMV, but I just don't think varying it by pip will really have a noticeable effect on combat...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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Varying by 1 pip won't. (But that isn't the highest outcome that occurs.) Neither will varying by +0D which is a result on your table. On the other hand, varying by 3D or 4D as your table includes, will have an enormous (possibly PC killing) effect, which is one among several outcomes I'm trying to avoid.
As I said, I am intentionally trying for a lesser effect.
I think the smaller modifiers result in the sort of variances one might expect between ships in a fleet. The larger variances are, in my opinion, too large for my gaming suspension of disbelief. But as always, use what works for you. Don't use what doesn't work. While I can believe in select individuals having far higher skills than is the average among the population or even the average among minimally skilled professionals. Having entire ship's crews of hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of beings who are far more skilled than their professional peers and comrades doesn't seem plausible to me. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Varying by 1 pip won't. (But that isn't the highest outcome that occurs.) Neither will varying by +0D which is a result on your table. On the other hand, varying by 3D or 4D as your table includes, will have an enormous (possibly PC killing) effect, which is one among several outcomes I'm trying to avoid. |
0D is only supposed to represent a ship whose crew skills are unmodified from the baseline, and the +3D and +4D variables are statistically rare (1-in-36 for Elite/+4D and 5-in-36 for Veteran/+3D), and it's specifically stated that GMs may adjust the results at their discretion if they think the bonus is too high for their campaign. For example, an Elite crew on an IPV 1 in some backwater sector somewhere is highly unlikely, so the GM might possibly adjust the modifier down by 1D or 2D.
Basically, I'm looking for a decent spread on the possible results to suit the broadest possible range of campaign experience levels.
I suppose if I wanted to take your route for added granularity, I'd just throw in an additional chart that is rolled once the initial modifier is established:1-2 = +0
3-4 = +1
5-6 = +2 which is then applied to the dice value rolled on the Crew Quality table, but I really don't see that level of detail being necessary for NPC crews in random encounters.
| Quote: | As I said, I am intentionally trying for a lesser effect.
I think the smaller modifiers result in the sort of variances one might expect between ships in a fleet. The larger variances are, in my opinion, too large for my gaming suspension of disbelief. But as always, use what works for you. Don't use what doesn't work. While I can believe in select individuals having far higher skills than is the average among the population or even the average among minimally skilled professionals. Having entire ship's crews of hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of beings who are far more skilled than their professional peers and comrades doesn't seem plausible to me. |
That's not the intent of the Crew Skill, though. It's supposed to represent an aggregate result, of the collective net effectiveness of a ship's crew as a whole, not as individuals. Some may be more skilled than that baseline, while many of the others may be less skilled, but what matters for the purposes of combat is how well that disparate group of individuals can coordinate their actions in combat. Ships are essentially treated as individuals, with their crew functioning as organic components of said ship, and this is especially true for NPC ships in combat.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Basically, I'm looking for a decent spread on the possible results to suit the broadest possible range of campaign experience levels. |
You and I disagree on what a reasonable spread ought to be. Ship crew skills currently range from around 3D to 5D or a bit higher, your system adds a modifier to that of between 0D and 4D for a net crew skill of about 3D on the lower end and about 9D on the upper end. I want a narrower spread.
For comparison I note that a skill of 3D is the average level of training for a human. That's why we see some ships with crew skills of 3D or so. A skill level of 9D, on the other hand (or paw or fin), is something only 1 in a billion people will achieve. Large ships having crew abilities in that range seems unreasonable to me.
| Quote: | | I suppose if I wanted to take your route for added granularity, I'd just throw in an additional chart that is rolled once the initial modifier is established |
Added granularity is not my goal. I want lower aggregate skills levels for large groups of people than what we see for highly trained, elite individuals.
| Quote: | | ...but I really don't see that level of detail being necessary for NPC crews in random encounters. |
We are in agreement on this point.
My sense is we are not going to agree on what a reasonable upper limit is for the NPC crew skills for vessels, particularly for capital ships with large crews. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Check out the Star Wars Rules Companion (pg. 34, IIRC). The spread on relative crew skill level is in the 5D-6D range, with the Empire having a narrower spread than the Alliance.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. That appears to be a 1E sourcebook. I don't use very much from first edition. Does first edition (like the 2nd edition and the 2ERE) include a table that rates the various abilities by rarity? The table I refer to is on page 207 of the 2ERE. I see that as more definitive and hence despositive.
That said (and switching to nitpicking mode  ), I wouldn't say the Rebels have a larger spread. The listed spread for Imperials is 3D to 8D. That's a 5D difference. The spread for Rebels is from (2D to 3D+1) to 7D+1. For most of those starting values the spread is less than or equal to that of the Imperials. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Interesting. That appears to be a 1E sourcebook. I don't use very much from first edition. Does first edition (like the 2nd edition and the 2ERE) include a table that rates the various abilities by rarity? The table I refer to is on page 207 of the 2ERE. I see that as more definitive and hence despositive. |
For individuals, certainly. I see the aggregate skill rating of an entire ship's crew measured differently. And if we're looking at that chart, an Elite-level ship would be in the range of "one of the best on a planet" to "one of the best in a sector". I don't find that skill level particularly unreasonable, especially when the odds give that level of skill a 1-in-36 chance of actually showing up on a dice result, even before one calculates in the option of GMs to shift the results to reflect the needs of their campaign. Even if a ship gets an Elite result, a GM could easily decide that the backwater Outer Rim sector where the encounter is occuring wouldn't have an Elite-grade crew on a garrison patrol in an IPV1.
| Quote: | | That said (and switching to nitpicking mode ), I wouldn't say the Rebels have a larger spread. The listed spread for Imperials is 3D to 8D. That's a 5D difference. The spread for Rebels is from (2D to 3D+1) to 7D+1. For most of those starting values the spread is less than or equal to that of the Imperials. |
I was looking at the "or PCs" addendum for Rebel Hand-Picked Elites. By that scale, the crew skill level for Rebel ships is essentially open-ended, limited only by whatever level of skill the PCs can achieve.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:47 am Post subject: |
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Giving this a bump because I updated the original concept for inclusion in the Starfighter Squadrons as Single Units house rule. I decided to leave out the Command Roll Modifiers as it's really too much granularity for a system designed to generate enemy NPC fighter units. However, it remains available, and I may include it in the future as part of my nascent Capital Ship Combat ruleset. In the meantime, here is the updated version in full:Fighter squadrons are rarely able to deploy their full strength all at once. Generally, fighters will be on a standing rotation, with part of the squadron on patrol, while others are on ready standby or undergoing pre-flight maintenance. The end result for player characters is that, unless they're very unlucky, they won't have to face an enemy vessel's full fighter strength all at once. Generally, a squadron will present itself in three waves:CAP (Combat Air Patrol) - Already in flight.
Ready Alert - Warmed up and ready to launch in 1D rounds.
Ready Reserve - Can be launched in 6D rounds. The strength of each wave varies based on the ready status of the squadron's carrier or base. Ready Status definitions may vary from setting to setting, but in general, they are classified as follows:Standard Patrol - This is the default status for a warship not currently engaged in battle. Its sensors are active and crew is watching for trouble, but there are no immediate threats.
Stand-By Alert - At this level, the ship's crew is on a heightened state of alert against a potential threat, even if the threat has not yet presented itself. An example from the films would be the Imperial Fleet at Endor; they knew the Alliance Fleet was coming, but they couldn't be sure exactly when.
Full Alert - At this level, combat is eminent, and all available craft are prepped for launch at a moment's notice. An example would be a capital ship in hyperspace en route to attack an enemy installation. The crew know exactly when the ship is supposed to drop out of hyperspace, and will be primed and ready to go as soon as they enter the target system.
Transit - Transit is essentially Standard Patrol while the ship is in hyperspace. Since the ship can only launch or recover fighters in realspace, the CAP fighters are incorporated into an expanded Ready Alert rotation. Once the carrier exits hyperspace, it will generally launch fighters within the first minute or so, at which point it is on Standard Patrol.
Stand-Down / Lax - This level is generally reserved for when the carrier or base is in a well-secured system, usually with other assets available to provide patrol and defense. Fighter Wing crews generally take advantage of Stand-Down time to perform more extensive maintenance on some of their craft, so the squadron's full strength may not be available. Unfortunately, due to overconfidence or incompetence, ship captains can allow their readiness standards to slip below acceptable levels, occasionally with disastrous results. Once you have established a ship or installation's Ready Status, use the following tables to determine the number of fighters available:Standard PatrolCAP - 1 fighter/squadron
Ready Alert - 2 fighters (1 element)/squadron
Ready Reserve - All Remaining Stand-By AlertCAP - 2 fighters (1 element)/squadron
Ready Alert - 4 fighters (1 flight)/squadron
Ready Reserve - All Remaining Full AlertReady Alert - Full Squadron TransitCAP - None
Ready Alert - 4 fighters (1 element)/squadron
Ready Reserve - All Remaining Lax / Stand-DownCAP - Roll 1D:1-4: None
5-6: 1 fighter/squadron. Ready Alert - Roll 1D:1-2: None
3-4: 1 fighter/squadron.
5-6: 2 fighters (1 element)/squadron. Ready Reserve. Roll 1D:1-2: 1 fighter/squadron.
3-4: 2 fighters (1 element)/squadron.
5-6: 3 fighters (1 section)/squadron. Note: Ships that carry multiple squadrons will generally alternate CAP duty, so that ships from the same squadron will be paired together for better combat effectiveness. For example, a Nebulon B with two squadrons of TIE Fighters would normally have 2 TIE fighters on CAP at any given time (1 fighter per squadron). However, rather than launching one fighter from each squadron, one squadron will deploy two fighters on CAP duty, which will be relieved hours later by two fighters from the second squadron, and so on and so forth. Deployed fighter unit sizes vary based on the number and types of craft available, mixing and matching to provide effective coverage. A Star Destroyer, for example, would have a standard CAP of 3 TIE/ln, 1 TIE/rc, 1 TIE Interceptor and 1 TIE Bomber, and the ships would mix and match as needed to fulfill mission objectives.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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