| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 9:34 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Not that anyone cares what Uncle George says, but it seems relevant.
| George Lucas wrote: | | Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful," he says. "But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You'll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no. |
Based on Lucas' math, Anakin lost 60% of his Force power when he became a cyborg. Just thought I'd mention it. Carry on.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So, my numbers in the Force Attribute article aren't quite on Lucas' math, but are relatively close. Perhaps Palpatine should've been a Force 5D instead of 4D...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pel
Line Captain
Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 983
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Whill wrote: |
Based on Lucas' math, Anakin lost 60% of his Force power when he became a cyborg. Just thought I'd mention it. Carry on. |
Kind of makes you wonder why Palpatine never cloned Anakin... Or maybe he did, and that's the basis for the next film!
_________________
Aha! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191
|
| Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | Enhancement can only go so far. How powerful a cybernetic limb can be is going to be largely dependent upon how much strength/stress the host joint can support.
At some point, those cybernetics interact with flesh and bone, and if they are taking on a larger load than the body parts they connect to can support, then you end up with injuries. |
True, but if we're talking about enhancing the Strength attribute, there is an implant available in Cracken's (the NeuroSaav Cardio-Muscular Package) that enhances the strength of natural muscles. IMO, skeletal and integumentary enhancements would also be needed to get a full-spectrum enhancement of Strength, but if anyone would have access to the technology, it would be the Emperor. So even if the goal was just to enhance Vader's Strength and leave all the other attributes alone, the technology does exist.
And turning him into an armored juggernaut that can shrug off hits and keep on coming would be very much in line with Anakin's character in the prequels... |
I see what you're getting at there.
Since we're assuming that actual enhancement is possible, then I would guess that since cybernetics have a negative impact on force use, the emperor would want to keep cybernetic additions as minimal as possible, perhaps making some measured sacrifices with certain extra components.
Since it's Vader we're talking about, I would speculate that his set up is designed to be as minimally intrusive as practical for his role in the emperor's plan (as little impact on his force ability as possible).
So, I'd assume that any enhancements would only be as good as they could be without causing undue reduction of his force ability. So, minimal enhancement.
Just guessing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 3:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
IMO, that depends greatly on whether or not enhancements cut further into a character's Force sensitivity than simple replacements, and on what House Rule you use to replicate that effect. If a character like Vader was already going to take a hit to their ability to use the Force, and the severity of that hit wasn't going to change regardless of whether the parts were replacements or enhancements (and Sith wouldn't really care about the extra DSPs), then Palpatine might easily consider enhancing Vader's physical strength to be some degree of compensation for what he lost. Not much compensation, but at least his blunt instrument is somewhat more capable for it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 9:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Pel wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Based on Lucas' math, Anakin lost 60% of his Force power when he became a cyborg. |
Kind of makes you wonder why Palpatine never cloned Anakin... |
The simplest answer is because Force-sensitive people can't be cloned, or at least not very easily. If they could, it would be too easy to grow an army of custom Force-users, or at least make some kick-@$$ designer Force-baddies.
Maybe the m-words can't be cloned, so cloning a Force-Sensitive person only results in a muggle clone. Or maybe the m-words sabotage the cloning process. Anakin is supposed to be special, unique really. The Chosen One. He's not so special if he can be copied.
| Pel wrote: | | Kind of makes you wonder why Palpatine never cloned Anakin... Or maybe he did, and that's the basis for the next film! |
Maybe, but I think Anakin being present in a more spiritual way is more likely than a physical clone of him.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio
|
| Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Didn't old canon have Palpatine cloning himself? Like, a lot?
_________________
"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've mentioned this before, but one theory I heard as part of a Splinter of the Mind's Eye ret-con was that the Emperor did clone Vader, but that Vader found out and killed or destroyed all the clones in a rage. Except for one, who had already been sent on a mission to Mimban...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 1:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MrNexx wrote: | | Didn't old canon have Palpatine cloning himself? Like, a lot? |
Yes, Dark Empire (1992) used cloning as the mechanism for bringing Palpatine back to life in the flesh - His soul possessed clone bodies after his original body's death. The EU was officially formed with the shotgun wedding of the Dark Empire to The Thrawn Trilogy.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I've mentioned this before, but one theory I heard as part of a Splinter of the Mind's Eye ret-con was that the Emperor did clone Vader, but that Vader found out and killed or destroyed all the clones in a rage. Except for one, who had already been sent on a mission to Mimban... |
That theory helps SotME (1978) with respect to some continuity with TESB, but it doesn't help the sexual tension Luke has for Leia, or the fact that Leia can't swim but Luke, from a desert planet, can. I think it is most telling that when the Star Wars Sourcebook was being written, Lucasfilm advised WEG to incorporate the Han and Lando novels, but to ignore SotME and the Marvel Comics series. WEG became the basis of the EU - SotME was initially left out and only later canonized after the novel was republished in the 90s with an introduction from Lucas describing it as the Star wars sequel that never was.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 11:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
But ESB itself plays with the weird sexual tension, too. Not much, but that kiss in the med-bay on Hoth looks a lot more awkward once we know that Leia is his sister as of RotJ.
My personal philosophy is to include as much of the EU as possible, and if there is an irresolvable conflict, just ignore that specific part while keeping the rest. If that means the whole scene of Luke being able to swim while Leia can't, or treating a story as more of a summary of events than as completely true, then that's what has to happen.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 5:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | But ESB itself plays with the weird sexual tension, too. Not much, but that kiss in the med-bay on Hoth looks a lot more awkward once we know that Leia is his sister as of RotJ. |
The kiss in TESB doesn't compare to Luke getting a bonwar while camping with Leia. At least in TESB we know Leia was always interested in Han and just trying to make him mad.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 6:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
But that doesn't explain Luke's reaction to her kissing him. Either scenario is awkward based on what we know from RotJ, but it's hard to make that judgment without all the facts. The only hint ever dropped about Leia in ESB was Yoda's vague "there is another" line, and there was no suggestion there of a family connection between Luke and Leia.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 11:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It's no secret that they weren't siblings until RotJ's retcon and the "other" was originally in reference to Luke's original non-Leia sister.
Luke's reaction to her kissing him is explained with RotJ. He didn't know she was his sister. The same could be said about SotME if trying to fit it into the same continuity. The difference between the two is, one is a cocky, 'yeah the girl kissed me and not you' reaction for the sake of Han, and the other is this when Han is not around:
| Quote: | | Luke felt the warmth of the body next to him, lowered his gaze. Framed in the faint light from above, the Princess looked more radiant, more beautiful than ever. "Leia," he began, "I …" |
| Quote: | | The Princess grew aware of how tightly she was clinging to him. Their proximity engendered a wash of confused emotion. It would be proper to disengage, to move away a little. Proper, but not nearly so satisfying. |
I can't believe you are are suggesting the ickiness of these two SW sequels are equal in light of the sibling retcon, and I can't even fathom a possible motivation you might have in doing so. But ultimately the Luke and Leia's budding romance of the novel is one of the more minor issues with the book.
TESB is clearly meant to be the first time Luke confronts Vader in person. Yes, Vader being a clone in SotME would mean that TESB would be the first time Luke confronted the real Vader, but that's still a cheat to the film drama. TESB is the most meaningful if it is the first time Luke has confronted any version of Vader, except the dark cave vision on Dagobah. Even the drama of the Force vision of Vader is cheated if Luke already confronted a clone of Vader before that point.
SotME is also meant to be the first time Luke ever confronts Vader in person. Luke is a much better sword-fighter in SotME than TESB. It doesn't make any sense why Obi-Wan's spirit could give him a boost in one Vader fight but pointedly not help him with the other. The kaibur crystal might amplify the Force but it shouldn't amplify melee skills. This novel and the film sequels represent two separate futures of the first film. Divergent timelines. Shoehorning the novel into the same continuity as the film sequels is Reason #853 why the EUs are dumb overall.
Overall I enjoyed SotME as a story taking place alternate reality of the film sequels. If Luke and Leia aren't siblings, Leia not knowing how to swim and Luke saving her with his 'Dune Sea' swimming experience is a stupid point, but the rest of the novel is alright, for an alternate universe story. Equating the sexuality between Luke and Leia in SotME to Luke's "That's right" moment in TESB is baffling and unnecessary.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
EDIT:  So apparently I posted without reading all of the thread and some of my comments were scooped. On the plus side, I provide an alternate mechanic to CRMcNeil's for how cybernetic replacements or enhancements effect Force Users and Force Powers.
| garhkal wrote: | | Never really liked the "if you have cybernetics, get 1 dsp per cyber-point you have" that was iirc introduced in Crackens.. I would much prefer a penalty to activating force powers for having cybernetics myself.. |
Yeah, the cyber point rules didn’t seem quite right.
Here’s what it says on page 5 of Cracken's Rebel Field Guide.
| Cracken's Rebel Field Guide 'Temptation of Evil' wrote: | Each prosthetic has a set number of cyber points.
When a character calls on the Force, he must roll a die. If the number is higher than the character’s total cyber points , the Force may be used as described in the game. If the roll is equal to or lower than the point total, the character cannot use the Force.
Characters with any cyber points receive double the normal amount of Dark Side points.
|
1. Luke, with a single hand replacement has a 1 in 6 chance of not being able to use the Force. Did we see that happen in Return of the Jedi? If it did, I don’t remember seeing it.
2. Darth Vader has no chance of using the Force. Due to his injuries, he has replaced his hands, arms, and legs (1 Cyber Point each), plus some organs like heart and lungs (1 Cyber Point each) for a total of 8 Cyber Points. He is horribly burned so he may have had replacements for eyes or ears (1 Cyber Point each). If so that would take him up to 10 or 12 Cyber Points. Regardless of whether it is 8 or 10 or 12 points, he’s rarely going to roll over 8, much less 10 or 12, on just one die.
3. The doubling of DSPs received doesn’t make much sense to me. Also wouldn’t a Dark Sider like Vader actually benefit from the doubling award for DSPs? I’m not sure that would balance out his inability to use the Force normally though.
This rule doesn’t match what we see in the films (or anywhere else).
I can see an argument that someone who chose to have functioning limbs or organs removed and replaced with “improved” cyberparts might, in some sense, be acting against life and that might warrant some sort of penalty like a Dark Side Point. Using the Dark Side Pip House Rule, I could live with a penalty like 1 DSPip per Cyber Point for removal and replacement of healthy limbs or organs.
garhkal’s idea that Cyber Points should or could make it more difficult to use the Force makes sense and it does seem to match somethings we hear about Vader losing some ability or connection to the Force after getting barbecued on Mustafar. It makes sense if you have midichlorians* throughout your body and you lose parts of your body your midichlorian count could decrease. We can probably get some use out of the Cracken Cyber Point mechanic for making the Force more difficult to access or use. One simple method would be to add the Cyber Point total to the difficulty of the power.
So Luke would add +1 to the difficulty of every task, which would be an extremely minor effect. Vader might add +10 to the difficulty. Not enough to stop someone with his number of dice in Control, Sense, and Alter, but for some powers like projective and receptive telepathy it will sometimes matter.
And if the GM wants a bigger effect just include a multiplier for the Cyber Point total. With a x2 or a x3 multiplier Vader will start to feel the effects for some powers (+20 or +30 to the difficulty). Luke mostly still won’t (+2 or +3 to the difficulty) which does seem to fit what we see in Return of the Jedi.
*Yeah, yeah, I hate them too, but the darn things are canon. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14031
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 1:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: |
garhkal’s idea that Cyber Points should or could make it more difficult to use the Force makes sense and it does seem to match somethings we hear about Vader losing some ability or connection to the Force after getting barbecued on Mustafar. It makes sense if you have midichlorians* throughout your body and you lose parts of your body your midichlorian count could decrease. We can probably get some use out of the Cracken Cyber Point mechanic for making the Force more difficult to access or use. One simple method would be to add the Cyber Point total to the difficulty of the power.
So Luke would add +1 to the difficulty of every task, which would be an extremely minor effect. Vader might add +10 to the difficulty. Not enough to stop someone with his number of dice in Control, Sense, and Alter, but for some powers like projective and receptive telepathy it will sometimes matter.
And if the GM wants a bigger effect just include a multiplier for the Cyber Point total. With a x2 or a x3 multiplier Vader will start to feel the effects for some powers (+20 or +30 to the difficulty). Luke mostly still won’t (+2 or +3 to the difficulty) which does seem to fit what we see in Return of the Jedi.
*Yeah, yeah, I hate them too, but the darn things are canon. |
I lean more to the x2, or x3 area.. so someone with just say 2.5 worth, would only have a +5 or +8 diff, but someone at say 5 cyber would be +10/+15..
Alternately you could make it, x1 for sense powers, x2 for control, x4 for alter??
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
