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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | There was earlier talk about earth technology not fitting into the SWU die to name suck as the Howitzer and FLAK because they are named after people or another language. What if FLAK meant "Fragment Launching Aircraft Killer" instead of Flugabwehrkanone? Actually it should not matter if it is based on another language - it's Star Wars after all... there are millions of languages. |
I addressed this earlier; in my SWU headcanon, FLAK is an acronym for Fractional Lag Accretion Kinetics. When a turbolaser is in FLAK mode, a gravitic choke on the barrel imparts a tiny delay in the leading portion of the turbolaser bolt, which in turn causes the following portion of the bolt to ride up on the leading portion, distorting and degrading its integrity over the flight time of the bolt. This degradation increases to the point where the bolt will eventually explosively disrupt, spreading its energy in all directions, much as if it had struck the ground or other solid object. The point at which the bolt detonates varies in direct proportion to how much of the leading portion of the beam was lagged; higher percentage lagged = detonates sooner.
In game terms, a capital ship using Sensor Focus to Lock-On to a target may treat the shot as though it is a Blast Radius effect weapon, which represents the beam not directly hitting the target, but explosively rupturing close enough to still inflict damage.
I'm assuming Inquisitor is talking about Starfighter-Scale Arc Blasters being used as point defense weapons, since my concept limits FLAK mode to turbolasers.
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Inquisitor1138
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Joined: 28 Nov 2021
Posts: 601
Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | There was earlier talk about earth technology not fitting into the SWU die to name suck as the Howitzer and FLAK because they are named after people or another language. What if FLAK meant "Fragment Launching Aircraft Killer" instead of Flugabwehrkanone? Actually it should not matter if it is based on another language - it's Star Wars after all... there are millions of languages. |
I addressed this earlier; in my SWU headcanon, FLAK is an acronym for Fractional Lag Accretion Kinetics. When a turbolaser is in FLAK mode, a gravitic choke on the barrel imparts a tiny delay in the leading portion of the turbolaser bolt, which in turn causes the following portion of the bolt to ride up on the leading portion, distorting and degrading its integrity over the flight time of the bolt. This degradation increases to the point where the bolt will eventually explosively disrupt, spreading its energy in all directions, much as if it had struck the ground or other solid object. The point at which the bolt detonates varies in direct proportion to how much of the leading portion of the beam was lagged; higher percentage lagged = detonates sooner.
In game terms, a capital ship using Sensor Focus to Lock-On to a target may treat the shot as though it is a Blast Radius effect weapon, which represents the beam not directly hitting the target, but explosively rupturing close enough to still inflict damage.
I'm assuming Inquisitor is talking about Starfighter-Scale Arc Blasters being used as point defense weapons, since my concept limits FLAK mode to turbolasers. |
No, actually.
| Quote: | flak
/flak/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1. strong criticism.
"you must be strong enough to take the flak if things go wrong"
Similar: criticism, censure, disapproval, disapprobation, hostility, complaints, castigation, condemnation, denunciation, opprobrium, obloquy, calumny, calumniation, execration, excoriation, vilification, abuse, revilement, lambasting, brickbats, knocking, panning, slamming, tongue-lashing, a bad press, stick, verbal, slagging off, slagging
2. antiaircraft fire. |
Basically Stargate-style railguns for range & penetrating power. So metal projectiles in space, which is a thing in the Expanse. I should include that in my ships' descriptions.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | No, actually. |
I'm fully aware of what the real world definition of flak is. The point being made was that the term itself has no clear path of being replicated in the SWU, especially w/r/t making a flak energy weapon.
In a universe where blasters store ammunition more efficiently, inflict more damage and have superior range and penetration against armor and shielding, solid shot weapons are only useful in certain situations. Point defense is not one of them. At the SWU's tech level, rail guns are only useful on capital ships if you literally have nothing better, certainly not in front line Imperial or Republic warships.
If you're really looking for a short-range point defense weapon that isn't a blaster, use disruptors.
Also...
| Quote: | | i like the 'K.I.S.S.' method, so no in don't try to reinvent everything. |
This is vague to the point of uselessness. What are you trying to say?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Inquisitor1138
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Joined: 28 Nov 2021
Posts: 601
Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | No, actually. |
I'm fully aware of what the real world definition of flak is. The point being made was that the term itself has no clear path of being replicated in the SWU, especially w/r/t making a flak energy weapon.
In a universe where blasters store ammunition more efficiently, inflict more damage and have superior range and penetration against armor and shielding, solid shot weapons are only useful in certain situations. Point defense is not one of them. At the SWU's tech level, rail guns are only useful on capital ships if you literally have nothing better, certainly not in front line Imperial or Republic warships.
If you're really looking for a short-range point defense weapon that isn't a blaster, use disruptors. |
If i start using disruptors, i might get too tempted to use more Trek tech.
Andor has a scene that shreds the notion that projectiles are useless against capital ships. I do agree somewhat on the limited application, hence why i am only using them in anti-starfighter capacity.
As long as you got me thinking about it, i do need to figure out an Ammo stat for my Flak Cannons. Thanks for raising valid points.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | Also...
| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | i like the 'K.I.S.S.' method, so no in don't try to reinvent everything. |
This is vague to the point of uselessness. What are you trying to say? |
I said what i meant, and meant what i said.
As much as i like to fine-tune, kitbash and tinker, i try to keep things simple & uncomplicated. If something takes more than 5 minutes to explain most players lose interest.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | If i start using disruptors, i might get too tempted to use more Trek tech. |
Disruptors are already a thing in the SWU, and have been since practically the beginning (see Han Solo at Star's End). They're powerful and short-ranged, but also heavily frowned upon for use in personal weapons. I'm considering them for dedicated point defense weapons or as the main armament on assault cruisers and similar craft.
| Quote: | | Andor has a scene that shreds the notion that projectiles are useless against capital ships. |
That scene shouldn't have worked because ships that size are suppose to have particle shielding that should be more than enough to stand up to a kinetic bombard at such close range. The only way it works is if you can headcanon something about the Cantwell dropping its shields to capture his ship.
| Quote: | | I do agree somewhat on the limited application, hence why i am only using them in anti-starfighter capacity. |
That's even worse. At least if they were dedicated anti-missile weapons, you could just say that missiles don't have particle shielding, and would thus be one of the few things in the setting that are vulnerable to KEWs. Starfighters, on the other hand, all come with particle shields, even the TIEs that don't have deflectors. Laser cannon and blasters will be superior in every respect to rail guns in the anti-starfighter role.
Projectile weapons are only superior to blasters under a handful of circumstances:1) Warhead Variability (as in, a single cannon may have a variety of effects simply by dint of loading it with different shells).
2) Mid-Course and Terminal Guidance (in the case of missiles and torpedoes, they may be guided onto a target after it fires)
3) Bombardment (either firing over intervening terrain on a planet, or stand-off firing against planetary targets or space stations that can't dodge).
| Quote: | I said what i meant, and meant what i said.
As much as i like to fine-tune, kitbash and tinker, i try to keep things simple & uncomplicated. If something takes more than 5 minutes to explain most players lose interest. |
Still meaningless. To what, exactly, are you referring to?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | There was earlier talk about earth technology not fitting into the SWU die to name suck as the Howitzer and FLAK because they are named after people or another language. What if FLAK meant "Fragment Launching Aircraft Killer" instead of Flugabwehrkanone? Actually it should not matter if it is based on another language - it's Star Wars after all... there are millions of languages. |
I addressed this earlier; in my SWU headcanon, FLAK is an acronym for Fractional Lag Accretion Kinetics. When a turbolaser is in FLAK mode, a gravitic choke on the barrel imparts a tiny delay in the leading portion of the turbolaser bolt, which in turn causes the following portion of the bolt to ride up on the leading portion, distorting and degrading its integrity over the flight time of the bolt. This degradation increases to the point where the bolt will eventually explosively disrupt, spreading its energy in all directions, much as if it had struck the ground or other solid object. The point at which the bolt detonates varies in direct proportion to how much of the leading portion of the beam was lagged; higher percentage lagged = detonates sooner.
In game terms, a capital ship using Sensor Focus to Lock-On to a target may treat the shot as though it is a Blast Radius effect weapon, which represents the beam not directly hitting the target, but explosively rupturing close enough to still inflict damage.
I'm assuming Inquisitor is talking about Starfighter-Scale Arc Blasters being used as point defense weapons, since my concept limits FLAK mode to turbolasers. |
I had not stumbled upon this before, but it seems like a great idea.
Last edited by Dr. Bidlo on Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I had not stumbled upon this before, bit it seems like a great idea. |
There is also the Barrage Pattern rule, which I came up with before I stumbled across the headcanon for flak-mode turbolasers. I really need to update it, because it would be more effective with flak mode, but I don't want it to be more effective than the targeted flak mode described above. The simplest solution would be to add a modifier to the threshold required to generate the terrain difficulty modifier, but I would need to do some number crunching to see what fits.
Short version: a ship can fire a targeted flak turbolaser pattern at a specific target designated by the Sensor Lock-On, or can fire an untargeted flak pattern that increases the Terrain Difficulty for all Starfighter-Scale targets in that arc that are within range.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | If i start using disruptors, i might get too tempted to use more Trek tech. |
I don't think the weapons technologies called "disruptors" in the two "Star" franchises are in any way related. It is just two different franchises using the same goobledygook word to mean two different things. I am fairly well-steeped in Trek and my impression has been that "disruptors" were just what humans call the Klingon version of "phaser" technology. They have very similar effects to phasers.
According to Star Wars lore, disruptor weapons are a form of blaster tech that use more blaster gas so they are higher energy blasts. According to WEG's interpretation for the game, they are high damage and low range energy weapons. No need to invoke Star Trek here.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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I'm more partial to having disruptors use something other than blaster gas. My headcanon has them firing anti-proton blasts that explosively disintegrate their targets. I never liked the Jedi Knight game that made disruptors into sniper rifles; I prefer to picture those rifles as the needle-beamers mentioned in the Han Solo trilogy.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2022 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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And honestly, I don't mind using Trek nomenclature if there's a plausible explanation for why it exists in the SWU. I've strongly considering co-opting "phaser" for the composite-beam lasers featured on the LAAT/i and various other platforms. It is, after all, effectively a "phased laser", so a contraction to "phaser" makes perfect sense. Way less of a mouthful than "composite beam laser", too.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Inquisitor1138
Captain
Joined: 28 Nov 2021
Posts: 601
Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | No, actually. |
I'm fully aware of what the real world definition of flak is. The point being made was that the term itself has no clear path of being replicated in the SWU, especially w/r/t making a flak energy weapon.
In a universe where blasters store ammunition more efficiently, inflict more damage and have superior range and penetration against armor and shielding, solid shot weapons are only useful in certain situations. Point defense is not one of them. At the SWU's tech level, rail guns are only useful on capital ships if you literally have nothing better, certainly not in front line Imperial or Republic warships.
If you're really looking for a short-range point defense weapon that isn't a blaster, use disruptors. |
If i start using disruptors, i might get too tempted to use more Trek tech.
Andor has a scene that shreds the notion that projectiles are useless against capital ships. I do agree somewhat on the limited application, hence why i am only using them in anti-starfighter capacity.
As long as you got me thinking about it, i do need to figure out an Ammo stat for my Flak Cannons. Thanks for raising valid points. |
i hate this virus, it frequently makes me feel like my IQ is ≈ 1 or 0. i have no frakking clue what i was thinking making that statement about disruptors; there's a variety of them in the RAW & plenty have been added in games & books for decades. I gave D6 conversions to a bunch from KotOR I & II in my Blaster Catalogue.
My apologies to those whose brains may have hurt from my spouting stupid.
Regarding my Flak Cannons/Guns, they are a niche weapon on a niche line of ships. In my headcanon, they were super effective against unshielded starfighters, which made up most of the CIS inventory. Against shielded fighters they were less effective but not useless.
Ammo was smelted from scrapped battle droids/salvage, so most of the time they had far more than they'd ever use.
Regarding your ideas for arc blasters/blaster shotguns & flak mode for energy weapons is interesting & i think i'll make some use of them! Thanks for the ideas!
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Facing all that you fear will free you from yourself.
The Rancor Pit Library
Bounty Hunting is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Game Mastering is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Count Dooku: Your swords, please. We don't want to make a mess of things in front of the Chancellor. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | i hate this virus, it frequently makes me feel like my IQ is ≈ 1 or 0. |
I sympathize, and have been there. Some of my more flagrant incidents here coincided with having a fever.
| Quote: | Regarding my Flak Cannons/Guns, they are a niche weapon on a niche line of ships. In my headcanon, they were super effective against unshielded starfighters, which made up most of the CIS inventory. Against shielded fighters they were less effective but not useless.
Ammo was smelted from scrapped battle droids/salvage, so most of the time they had far more than they'd ever use. |
Having them as a niche weapon makes more sense. Still not ideal, but if it's what's available for the circumstances, then it is what it is.
Also, I recalled that I had used mass-driver cannon for one other niche application. I headcannoned that they had a much lower energy signature than blasters, which made them a good fit for use on a stealth starfighter. Short-ranged and underpowered relative to similarly sized laser cannon, but still useful for sneaking up on the tail of some unsuspecting patrol fighter and zapping it without breaking stealth.
| Quote: | | Regarding your ideas for arc blasters/blaster shotguns & flak mode for energy weapons is interesting & i think i'll make some use of them! Thanks for the ideas! |
Any time. One concept I was pondering for a point defense blaster was a rotary arc blaster, basically a gatling energy shotgun. Tough to imagine it being useful for much else unless I could justify a man-portable version for use against Jedi...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Inquisitor1138
Captain
Joined: 28 Nov 2021
Posts: 601
Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:07 pm Post subject: ADC & FLAK |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | So, seeing as how "flak" derives from the German word for "aircraft defense cannon", it's hard to see how the term would transfer over. An acronym perhaps? "Fractional Lag Accretion Kinesis"? |
I think i, in my SWU, will have ADC & FLAK as interchangeable terms for the same thing..
Anywho, i'm making my own 'Cliff Notes' from this thread, as i plan to use them in a gunrunning plot, as well as a few ships with starfighter- & capital-scale versions...
I am still waking up so my brain isn't processing the weapons'' ranges yet, but that's what i am mainly concerned with.
I was was also thinking, for flak lasers, it would have a plasma 'bolt' that degrades then splatters, the rate of degradation can be calibrated to set the range.
p.s.... "ADC & FLAK" would be a very metal band name...
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Facing all that you fear will free you from yourself.
The Rancor Pit Library
Bounty Hunting is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Game Mastering is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Count Dooku: Your swords, please. We don't want to make a mess of things in front of the Chancellor. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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The problem with ADC is, the "A" stands for "Air", and the vast majority of anti-starfighter or anti-ordnance defensive fire is going to be occurring in space. So, you'd need to come up with an appropriate acronym that properly encompasses exactly what the cannon does.
W/r/t a separate plasma weapon that only fires flak bursts, that will require you to strip out a turbolaser to make room, which weakens your ship's total throw weight. Having a FLAK mode on a turbolaser allows you to treat a turbolaser as a dual-purpose weapon, ala the 5"/38 mounted on US Navy warships in WW2. Always preferable to have one cannon that can do multiple things than two separate cannon.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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