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Are character creation rules fair for Jedi characters?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:42 pm    Post subject: Are character creation rules fair for Jedi characters? Reply with quote

I have given this some thought and I have found that by using the rules for character creation a "jedi" will always be at a serious disadvantage.

to me the force skills shouls be counted against the +/D skill dice and not the 18D Attributes and i think below is the best way to show it with the same character made in two ways.

the first is made by raw the second is made with using the 7D for force skills.

Name:
Template: Disgraced Dark Apprentice
Species:
Gender:
Background: You were discovered by one of Lord Vader's Inquisitors a few years ago
and through their harsh training and your desire to amass more power your eyes were
opened to the ways of the Dark Side of the Force.
But you were deemed a waste, not worthy the Empire or your master's time.
You barely escaped your former master's attempt to end your life and spent time on the run,
just like a pathetic Jedi.
But you'll show Lord Vader and his cronies.
You have the will and the untapped power to become a Dark Lord of the Sith,
and you'll show the Emperor himself the true strength of your power.
For now you're working with the Rebel Alliance, for the enemy of your enemy is your ally – for now.
Personality: You're bitter and angry at your rejection.
Frustration that you cannot use your powers as freely as you once did plagues you.
Patience does not come easily to you.
You watch the petty Rebels around you – their dedication and compassion.
Outwardly, you express disgust at your reluctant allies.
Yet when you are alone, you remember the almost forgotten days when peace was your friend.
A Quote: “Galactic Civil War or not, I shall have my revenge.”
Connection With Other Characters:
You may have worked with a Retired Imperial Captain or hired a Bounty Hunter
during your time in the Empire. You may have once hunted a Minor Jedi.

DEX: 3D+2
Blaster:
Brawling Parry:
Dodge:
Grenade:
Melee Combat:
Melee Parry:
Missile Weapons:
Lightsaber: 4D+2
Pick Pockets:

KNO: 2D
Alien Races:
Bureaucracy:
Cultures:
Intimidation:
Languages:
Planetary Systems:
Streewise:
Survival:
Willpower:

MEC: 2D
Astrogation:
Beast Riding:
Repulsolift Operation:
Space Transports:
Starship Gunnery:
Starship Piloting:

PER: 2D+2
Bargain:
Command:
Con:
Gambling:
Hide:
Search:
Sneak:

STR: 2D+2
Brawling:
Climbing/Jumping:
Lifting:
Stamina:
Swimming:

TEC: 2D
Computer Programming/Repair
Demolition:
First Aid:
Repulsorlift Repair:
Sensors:
Security:
Space Transport Repair:
Starship Weapons Repair:

ALT: 3D
CON: 3D
SEN: 3D

+6D force, +1D lightsaber

Alter: Injure/Kill
Control:
Sense:
Alter+Control:
Alter+Sense:
Control+Sense: Lightsaber Combat
Alter+Control+Sense:

Move:

FP:
CP:
DSP: 2

Equipment: Lightsaber (5D), Clothes or Dark Robes, 1000 Credits.


DEX: 3D+2
Blaster:
Brawling Parry:
Dodge:
Grenade:
Melee Combat:
Melee Parry:
Missile Weapons:
Lightsaber: 4D+2
Pick Pockets:

KNO: 3D
Alien Races:
Bureaucracy:
Cultures:
Intimidation:
Languages:
Planetary Systems:
Streewise:
Survival:
Willpower:

MEC: 2D+2
Astrogation:
Beast Riding:
Repulsolift Operation:
Space Transports:
Starship Gunnery:
Starship Piloting:

PER: 3D
Bargain:
Command:
Con:
Gambling:
Hide:
Search:
Sneak:

STR: 3D
Brawling:
Climbing/Jumping:
Lifting:
Stamina:
Swimming:

TEC: 2D+2
Computer Programming/Repair
Demolition:
First Aid:
Repulsorlift Repair:
Sensors:
Security:
Space Transport Repair:
Starship Weapons Repair:

ALT: 2D
CON: 2D
SEN: 2D

+3D used for 1D to alt, con and sen, +3D used to raise these
+1D lightsaber

Alter: Injure/Kill
Control:
Sense:
Alter+Control:
Alter+Sense:
Control+Sense: Lightsaber Combat
Alter+Control+Sense:

Move:

FP:
CP:
DSP: 2

Equipment: Lightsaber (5D), Clothes or Dark Robes, 1000 Credits.


I did not add force powers on any of these, as they would too be indentical.

I would argue that the below character is significantly "better" than the above one, and that the 3D in attributes and thus skill default can not be overcome in any worth while way.

now if I now add a non force user with the same attributes as the 18D here we see hw they outperform any force character for a long long time.

We also have to take into account tranier vs no trainer and the rules for this, with less cost of powers with a teacher and less time taken to learn.

so a non force user DEX: 3D+2
Blaster: 5D+2
Brawling Parry:
Dodge: 4D+2
Grenade:
Melee Combat:
Melee Parry:
Missile Weapons:
Lightsaber:
Pick Pockets:

KNO: 3D
Alien Races:
Bureaucracy:
Cultures:
Intimidation:
Languages:
Planetary Systems:
Streewise:
Survival:
Willpower:

MEC: 2D+2
Astrogation:
Beast Riding:
Repulsolift Operation:
Space Transports: 3D+2
Starship Gunnery:
Starship Piloting:

PER: 3D
Bargain:
Command:
Con:
Gambling:
Hide:
Search:
Sneak:

STR: 3D
Brawling: 4D
Climbing/Jumping:
Lifting:
Stamina: 5D
Swimming:

TEC: 2D+2
Computer Programming/Repair
Demolition:
First Aid:
Repulsorlift Repair:
Sensors:
Security:
Space Transport Repair:
Starship Weapons Repair:

now if this character is force sensitive a choice that is actually free at creation he has 2 force points, the same as a jedi, he does not have the force skills trained yet, but he outskills the jedi even after he simply focus his character progression to only further his force skills.

So to me it makes much more sense to let the force skills be allocated from the +7D skill dice than from the Attributes.

we done't see any indication that just becuse obi wan is force senitive is is more frail or slower or even "dumber" than a non force sensitive.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
I have given this some thought and I have found that by using the rules for character creation a "jedi" will always be at a serious disadvantage.
If by "a serious disadvantage" you mean that, according to RAW, it will take the first character a lot more game time and cost more CPs to increase his attributes to match those of the third character than it would cost the third character to acquire the Force powers possessed by character #1 at the start of play, then yes, you are correct.

Of course this all assumes that the third character quickly finds himself a master, proves himself worthy, and has the CPs and time to learn the Force powers so as to increase them during play.

Those increases aren’t free.

    Acquiring Control, Sense, and Alter at 1D costs 10 CPs each (30 CPs total), requires a master with at least 3D in each ability, and takes 1 week of game time each (15 days* total).
    Raising Control, Sense, and Alter to 3D costs 9 CPs each (27 CPs total) if the student has a teacher and takes 27 days of game time. Without a teacher, the cost doubles (54 CPs total) and the time quadruples (108 days of game time).
    So we see that for character #3 to get the same Force skills he needs to spend between 57 and 84 CPs while spending 123 game days out of action.**


It is possible for character #1 to increase his attributes.
    To increase a single attribute from 2D to 3D costs a minimum of 10 CPs per pip*** (30CPs total) and takes 1 week/CP (30 weeks or 150 days of game time).
    So to increase three attributes from 2D to 3D so as to have the 18D in attributes that character #3 has will take a minimum of 90 CPs and 450 days of game time.


I noticed the same thing you noticed. I went a different direction and increased the cost for learning Force Powers after the start of play. I don’t recall the exact numbers, but I think it was something like.
    20 CPs to learn the third power.
    40 CPs to learn the second power.
    60 CPs to learn the third power.



* According to the RAW, a standard game week is 5 standard days (SWRPG 2RE page 199).
** Time can be decreased to a minimum of 1 day per improvement by spending more CPs at the rate of +1CP per days duration decrease.
*** Attribute increases are not automatic and therefore the actual CP and time cost can vary greatly, see SWRPG page 35.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
I have given this some thought and I have found that by using the rules for character creation a "jedi" will always be at a serious disadvantage.
If by "a serious disadvantage" you mean that, according to RAW, it will take the first character a lot more game time and cost more CPs to increase his attributes to match those of the third character than it would cost the third character to acquire the Force powers possessed by character #1 at the start of play, then yes, you are correct.

Of course this all assumes that the third character quickly finds himself a master, proves himself worthy, and has the CPs and time to learn the Force powers so as to increase them during play.

Those increases aren’t free.

    Acquiring Control, Sense, and Alter at 1D costs 10 CPs each (30 CPs total), requires a master with at least 3D in each ability, and takes 1 week of game time each (15 days* total).
    Raising Control, Sense, and Alter to 3D costs 9 CPs each (27 CPs total) if the student has a teacher and takes 27 days of game time. Without a teacher, the cost doubles (54 CPs total) and the time quadruples (108 days of game time).
    So we see that for character #3 to get the same Force skills he needs to spend between 57 and 84 CPs while spending 123 game days out of action.**


It is possible for character #1 to increase his attributes.
    To increase a single attribute from 2D to 3D costs a minimum of 10 CPs per pip*** (30CPs total) and takes 1 week/CP (30 weeks or 150 days of game time).
    So to increase three attributes from 2D to 3D so as to have the 18D in attributes that character #3 has will take a minimum of 90 CPs and 450 days of game time.


I noticed the same thing you noticed. I went a different direction and increased the cost for learning Force Powers after the start of play. I don’t recall the exact numbers, but I think it was something like.
    20 CPs to learn the third power.
    40 CPs to learn the second power.
    60 CPs to learn the third power.



* According to the RAW, a standard game week is 5 standard days (SWRPG 2RE page 199).
** Time can be decreased to a minimum of 1 day per improvement by spending more CPs at the rate of +1CP per days duration decrease.
*** Attribute increases are not automatic and therefore the actual CP and time cost can vary greatly, see SWRPG page 35.


Ok so I let my jedi increase one attribute from 2D to 3D and spend the time this takes. 60 cp + time ( 20 cp for 2D+1, 20 cp for 2D+2 , 20 cp for 3D)

these 60 CP has also been given to other characters, lets say a non trained but force sensitive character.

he uses 30 cp to get all three force skills to 1D + a total of 3 force powers.
he has spent about the same amount of time, he can now either have a ton of cp to use for diec boosts, or he can take more time "out of action" and train either his general skills or raise his force skills to 2D for 27 more points, he now has spent 57 points and with 3CP left for either a skill or to keep for in game rool boosts.

the jedi even with his raising of the attribute is still under and quite a bit so compared to the force sentive that spent the same amount of cp and time.

now it can be argued that the jedi is stronger and maybe significantly so in the force in comparison, but still at a 3D in force skills he needs very good rolls on wild dice to balance out what in the case of this character is a total of 3D in attributes, even with enchance attribute and other powers the jedi still has map, he needs to succeed a certain difficulty for the increase to be high enough etc etc.

However if all have 18D for attributes, then only the skills will sperate the characters, this more accurately refelct the focus on training, as there is no real indication that a "jedi" needs be frail or less intelligent or even clumsy just becuse they have the force, especially since you as a non Jedi can learn the force and generally outskill any jedi in anything.

Now the time the jedi uses to get to par with others in the "important" skills the others need not use, and can use to almost as quickly get to par with the jedi's force level.

is cheaper in CP to buy 1D in force skills and then raise these to 3D than it is to buy a total of 3D and the the added CP needed for the discrepency in skills.


1D
1D
1D is 30CP, 2D in each is 57, then 3D is 84 and time spent.

noe if I have the #2 or # 3 PC here I will be a 3D force skills "jedi" but with much more trained skills than the jedi who needed to spend the same 84 points to raise his attributes only.....

as a non jedi starter I still come out ahead
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
as a non jedi starter I still come out ahead
Correct.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO< yes they are fair. Cause once that Jedi gets UP In his D code, he can often dominate things..
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the RAW is not anywhere near "fair."

First, if we assume that the "rules" somehow "require" or "assume" that a the GM will deliberately delay the introduction of a master into the story so as to keep the Jedi player down (so-to-speak) until the player "earns" the right for his character to have a teacher, then starting them off weaker is actually quite lame.

You end up with a setting-appropriate (in fact, setting-specific) character concept that does not come to fruition because "the rules."

In fact, a great story hook might be that a powerful force sensitive detects the young PC headed down the wrong path and basically forces his way into the PC's life in order to guide him down the right path ("Either train under me, or I must remove the threat you present to the galaxy at large" or some such).

Second, it costs CPs to raise force skills just like it does to raise regular skills, therefore, a Jedi who is strong in the force will be weak in other things. It's just that simple. In many ways, the Jedi may have a force power (which costs character points to have enough skill to use effectively) that gives them an "ability" that another character can simulate just by having a piece of equipment that can be bought/replaced, etc, and which does not suffer MAPs. For example, a character can have an optical device (such as a microscope or binoculars) while the Jedi has magnify senses. But the Jedi actually had to invest CPs into the ability, while another character just gains the benefits of the device for free.

(Yes, I know, the Jedi can buy binoculars, too, but that just goes to show: a force power isn't necessarily "better" than a piece of equipment in terms of how it's effects are expressed in actual game play: that is, roll some [more] dice to determine an outcome).

Third:
Dark Side points. Jedi are heavily restricted on what they can do without risking the loss of their character. It costs a force point to atone for a dark side point, and as soon as you get your second dark side point, you are at risk of losing your character.

After decades of experience with this game/system, my opinion is that either of these rules changes would be appropriate:

1) force sensitive characters get all three force skills for free at character creation (in exchange for the dark side point rules mentioned above).

2) force sensitive characters choose one force skill and they get that for free, and, if they want a teacher right away in order to learn the others, their background must include the mentor (even if that means the mentor functions as somewhat of a restraining device, as suggested above).
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I think the RAW is not anywhere near "fair."
It's not supposed to be fair. It's supposed to be fun. Obviously whether any game is or is not fun is a subjective judgment, but since we are all on a forum dedicated to WEG's Star Wars D6 game it seems reasonable to assume that everybody posting thinks the game mostly is fun

Depending on the group and play style, any of the character templates may end up at some disadvantaged vis a vis some other template. I'm sure we can each think of multiple examples. I think Mamatried and Naaman raise fair points about the disadvantages for a Force user, especially a starting Force user.

Quote:
Dark Side points. Jedi are heavily restricted on what they can do without risking the loss of their character. It costs a force point to atone for a dark side point, and as soon as you get your second dark side point, you are at risk of losing your character.
That's true not just of Jedi, but of all Force sensitive characters. In compensation the Force sensitives do start with 1 extra FP and they are allowed to accumulate more than 5 FPs. Although depending on the group and how long they play the limit may rarely if ever be an issue. (It's also worth noting that even non-Force sensitives can be lost to the Dark Side, it's just that to get a DSP they have to spend a FP while doing something evil.)


Quote:
1) force sensitive characters get all three force skills for free at character creation (in exchange for the dark side point rules mentioned above).

2) force sensitive characters choose one force skill and they get that for free, and, if they want a teacher right away in order to learn the others, their background must include the mentor (even if that means the mentor functions as somewhat of a restraining device, as suggested above).
I think either of those rules could work for a Force user, but it seems to me that it now puts the Force sensitive, non-Force powered characters at a significant disadvantage. They still have the Dark Side Point limits on behavior, but they don't get any powers in compensation.

Returning to Mamatried's proposed House Rule, if I understand correctly, Mamatried proposed having Force users pay 1D from their 7D skills for each Force skill (Control, Sense, and Alter) that they start the game with instead of paying 1D in attributes from their 18D attributes. That sounds workable to me. It would certainly make the novice starting Jedi characters more well rounded (like Luke Skywalker) to have that 2D or 3D adding to their attributes instead of just adding to a couple of skills (that may already start 1D lower due to the attribute decrease).

I like Mamatried's suggestion of spending skill dice instead of attribute dice better. I'll have to think about
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I think the RAW is not anywhere near "fair."

First, if we assume that the "rules" somehow "require" or "assume" that a the GM will deliberately delay the introduction of a master into the story so as to keep the Jedi player down (so-to-speak) until the player "earns" the right for his character to have a teacher, then starting them off weaker is actually quite lame.


But where are you getting the idea, that a GM MUST place a "Master" in game for a jedi player? Especially if he's running it in the standard (RISE of the empire/post jedi purge) setting, those masters will be RARE and hard to find, otherwise they'd have gotten taken out BY vader.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
But where are you getting the idea, that a GM MUST place a "Master" in game for a jedi player?
Well...The Young Jedi template sort of implies the eventual existence of a master to finish the Young Jedi's training. I doubt many players will choose that template with the intent of never learning more about the Force. So a player might expect that if the GM allows them to choose the Young Jedi template part of the campaign is going to be about their character learning the ways of the Force and completing their training like we see Luke and Ezra Bridger do. So the GM allowing that template while never discussing that the campaign isn't ever going to include that sort of character arc is a jerk move. And if the player and GM agreed ahead of time to include that sort of a character arc, and then the GM never, ever provides (or indefinitely delays) any sort of teacher, that would definitely be a jerk move.


To avoid misunderstanding, by providing a teacher, I don't mean the teacher shows up on the student's door, I mean an opportunity that actually occurs in play to encounter someone who could be a teacher. The student might have to follow clues, show dedication, pass a test, or prove themselves worthy, but if that sort of character growth arc is agreed to then not allowing a possibility for it to be realized is, in my opinion, a jerk move.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any NPC with 3D or aboove in a force skill can according to the rules teach, and a teacher that is not a master but do have 3-4-5D in the skills will be less rare than the jedi masters.

Secondly depending on timeline and if that is as the "default" in the rebellion era, then both vader and the old man actually eased down a lot on their jedi hunting, focusing on the rebels.

so to get some form of teacher is not all that much, even a starter character like a young jedi who have used his 7D to raise his force skills to 3D can teach, however he can not teach the skill Dice to higer than 2D for the student, and he may only teach any power he knows.

so no, getting a teacher is not all that, and not al all thart rare, most forceusers in most of the modules is at least at 3D in one or more if the force skills and can thus teach and be a teacher
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Naaman wrote:
I think the RAW is not anywhere near "fair."

First, if we assume that the "rules" somehow "require" or "assume" that a the GM will deliberately delay the introduction of a master into the story so as to keep the Jedi player down (so-to-speak) until the player "earns" the right for his character to have a teacher, then starting them off weaker is actually quite lame.


But where are you getting the idea, that a GM MUST place a "Master" in game for a jedi player? Especially if he's running it in the standard (RISE of the empire/post jedi purge) setting, those masters will be RARE and hard to find, otherwise they'd have gotten taken out BY vader.


I think Bren sums it up rather nicely.

Concerning using skill dice instead of attribute dice, that is something I have actually done before.

In the end, I land on the side of the fence that a character concept should be as complete as possible from the start. Generally, having 3D in a force skill makes that skill barely useable, while things start to even out around 4D in individual force skills.

This is why I would just give them for free: they don't become viable until after 9 or 10 adventures, and that assumes that you've dedicated 100% of your CPs to raising them exclusively. Getting all 3 skills above 3D would certainly take longer than 9 or 10 adventures, assuming 3-5 CP per adventure.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I think Bren sums it up rather nicely.
Thanks. Very Happy

Naaman wrote:
Concerning using skill dice instead of attribute dice, that is something I have actually done before.

In the end, I land on the side of the fence that a character concept should be as complete as possible from the start. Generally, having 3D in a force skill makes that skill barely useable, while things start to even out around 4D in individual force skills.
True. Below 4D or 5D many powers aren't usable without using a FP and sometimes not even then. And it seems like having powers at a low level is almost worse than not having any powers at all. Some powers seems like it opens up the wanna be Young Jedi to attracting the attention of the Empire or some rogue Dark Sider who will far outclass the novice Force abilities of the Young Jedi.

That said, giving out 3 extra skills at 3D for no cost doesn't sit well with me. I'd probably go the route of charging starting skill dice. Then, if I wanted to start the Jedi off with higher starting Force skills, I just start all the characters with 10D or 12D in skills. That would allow the non Force users to have a wider set of skills where they are better than the base. That way there should be things that they can do better than the Jedi while the Jedi still has some starting Force ability and some non Jedi skills above base.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't mean that EACH force skill should start at 3D. Only that I'm fine with the first 1D in each skill being free. They have to pay their way beyond 1D.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But why should the first d, for jedi characters be free? Essentially that's giving them 21d, compared to everyone else getting 18d.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I didn't mean that EACH force skill should start at 3D. Only that I'm fine with the first 1D in each skill being free. They have to pay their way beyond 1D.
That is more reasonable.

I'm still concerned with how the non-Force using Force Sensitive stacks up to the various Force users (Failed Jedi, Young Jedi, Quixotic Jedi, etc.) They each have the same restriction for actions based on turning to the Dark Side, so it seems they should have the same (or at least similar) compensatory advantages.

garhkal wrote:
But why should the first d, for jedi characters be free? Essentially that's giving them 21d, compared to everyone else getting 18d.
They aren't, exactly. The suggestion (or argument) is that starting dice in the Force skills should be coming from skill dice not attribute dice. If one accepts that, then the Jedi character isn't getting more attribute dice, just the same 18 dice in attributes that every other (human) character gets.

Naaman and I are disagreeing about whether the Jedi characters should get any 1D Force skills in addition to their 18D in attributes and 7D in skills. Naaman says yes, they get the first 1D for Force skills in addition to their 7D, whereas I favor subtracting all the starting Force skill dice from the 7D in skill dice that every new character gets.
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