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Military Training for PCs
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:25 am    Post subject: Military Training for PCs Reply with quote

How to do this?

I have tried to emulate this through the use of the "adventurer's guide #3" from the toold download section. In this suppliment there is a chapter on Planetary Defense Forces, a basic training package and military speciality packages like infantry and transort.

DEXTERITY: 4D
KNOWLEDGE: 2D
PERCEPTION: 3D+2
MECHANICAL: 2D+2
STRENGTH: 2D+2
TECHNICAL: 2D

ALTER: 1D
CONTROL:
SENSE:

Here is a basic character stat write up and below is after adding the basic training and transportation spcialization.

DEXTERITY: 4D
Blaster 5D
Dodge 4D+1
Running 4D+2
KNOWLEDGE: 2D
Survival 2D+1
Tactics 2D+1

PERCEPTION: 3D+2
Search 4D
MECHANICAL: 3D
Repulsorlift Operation 4D
STRENGTH: 3D
Brawling 3D+1
Climbing/Jumping 3D+1
Lifting 3D+1
TECHNICAL: 2D+1
First Aid 2D+2
Repulsorlift Repair 3D

What was added was the following

-Basic Training
+1 STR

+2 Blaster
+2 Running
+1 Brawling
+1 Climbing/Jumping
+1 Dodge
+1 First Aid
+1 Search

-Specialization Transportation-

+1 TEC
+1 MEC
+1D Repulsorlift Operation

+1 Blaster
+1 Survival
+1 Tactics
+1 Lifting
+2 Repulsorlift Repair


I do see this come in addition to the character's 7D at creation to be used for more experienced characters, veterans and the like.
Any thoughts?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can use the chart in the rulebook which describes the relative skill levels and how many "D" thsy would have (3D is "trained," 4D is "professional," etc.).

A possible variation could be that 1D above the attribute is "trained" and 2D above is "professional."

Then, I would look at all skills that should be covered in basic training, and raise them by 1D or up to 3D (depending on what seems more appropriate to you). Next, I would look at the specialty, and increase those skills by a further D (a transportation specialist would get this second bonus to all relevant vehicle operation skills as well as whatever skill might cover logistical problem solving, such as a scholar speciaization, perhaps). An infantryman would get that second bonus to his ranged combat skills, to include blaster, missile weapons and grenade (an argument could easily be made for vehicle blasters as well, depending on which military we are talking about: imperial, rebels, republic, etc).
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
You can use the chart in the rulebook which describes the relative skill levels and how many "D" thsy would have (3D is "trained," 4D is "professional," etc.).

A possible variation could be that 1D above the attribute is "trained" and 2D above is "professional."

Then, I would look at all skills that should be covered in basic training, and raise them by 1D or up to 3D (depending on what seems more appropriate to you). Next, I would look at the specialty, and increase those skills by a further D (a transportation specialist would get this second bonus to all relevant vehicle operation skills as well as whatever skill might cover logistical problem solving, such as a scholar speciaization, perhaps). An infantryman would get that second bonus to his ranged combat skills, to include blaster, missile weapons and grenade (an argument could easily be made for vehicle blasters as well, depending on which military we are talking about: imperial, rebels, republic, etc).



yes and no.

While those are great at determining an overall level of skill or power, they do not go into the differences in individuals in the same way.

if I have 2D in dex, I take military training and I recive +1 Dex and +1D blaster I now have 2D+1 Dex and 3D+1 blaster.
I have the exact same training and was in the same class even as the other player.
He has 4D dex and recive a +1 Dex and +1D to his blaster skill

he now has 4D+1 ot dex and 5D+1 to blaster, however they did go through the exact same traning.

Now in the latter case dex is raised above the max 4D, but this I do not in any way see as a problem as this would be something that can be seen as some candidates are more suited for some things,.

in theis casse the last of the characters would most likely see a future career in the guard corps, the first one maybe not any front line position but rather some depending on other attributes, or maybe just as a cannon fodder grunt.

this is whitin the line of how to justify royal guard's with 5D dex, and why most stat blocks of military npcs do have at least 1 attribute at 3D or even 4D , the basic stormtrooper with a flat 2D, compared with the scout trooper with a flat 2D BUT with a 3D mechanical.

Storm commandos with a flat 3D, 3D+1 str and 2D mechanical is another such example. All this I think can be done by expanding on the PDF training packages presented, with things as pilot and commando and officer training being additional specializations.

even if this means you do on a TIE fighter Pilot template ending up with a 4D+1 base Mechanical Attribute, the TIE fighters are by fluff said to be the best trained pilots, and most of the rebel aces are former tie pilots.

if a young rookie rebel pilot not really trained in air tactics, in all the comabt stuff, but is a very good bush piilot, is then a gained +1 to the attribute a very big deal, I say not. I think it describes that little level above that a TIE pilot would be.

Simply adding dice would not cut it IMO, as a pip based increase more accruately follows the natural progression and when given on top a well rounded way to indicate the little training.

now should it be free, idk, but I do know that if I at 18 joins the army i have not by joining and training gained any significan level of experience, I would even argue that the 18yr wo did not enter the army, and spent this year doing whatever could actually gain more experience than the one joining the military, but
the military one would most likely be a little more physically trained, be a little if not much better in shooting and comabt/military related issues, but he will not be very much less in other fields than the civilian, at least not up to the point of the time of training.

meaning that it is very reasnable to go above 18D for anyone with training.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. I suppose it depends on how you interpret the significance of an attribute increase, and what exactly about a character an attribute represents.

As to the difference in benefits from the same training (you referenced 3D+1 vs 5D+1 in baster), one thing to remember is that military training is performed to a specific standard.

That standard, in RPG terms would be met by a character having enough skill to reliably achieve a task with a predetermined level of difficulty.

So, if both characters get the same bonus, but have different levels of skill, and one of those characters cannot achieve the standard on a consistent enough basis, then he is not fully trained. This is why a minimum dice threshold should still be taken into consideration when using game rules to express something like military (or any other) kind of training.

In order to graduate, the individual must perform to standard or he will wash out.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Yeah. I suppose it depends on how you interpret the significance of an attribute increase, and what exactly about a character an attribute represents.

As to the difference in benefits from the same training (you referenced 3D+1 vs 5D+1 in baster), one thing to remember is that military training is performed to a specific standard.

That standard, in RPG terms would be met by a character having enough skill to reliably achieve a task with a predetermined level of difficulty.

So, if both characters get the same bonus, but have different levels of skill, and one of those characters cannot achieve the standard on a consistent enough basis, then he is not fully trained. This is why a minimum dice threshold should still be taken into consideration when using game rules to express something like military (or any other) kind of training.

In order to graduate, the individual must perform to standard or he will wash out.



I didn't really think of this, but you are right.

there could be given a standard like 4D blaster, skill or attribute gives qualifying in shooting, 4D to qualify as a pilot/driver
3D to repair skills and the like
3d to fitst aid etc.

the issue perhaps is that the system in the suppliments are meant for npcs with a flat 2D in both skill and or attribute.

if this is the case then you are qualified at 3D/3D+1
and 2D/2D+1/2D+2

as this is what tis total in attribute/skill increases.

If we look to standard NPCs not counting armor, we see skill in blaster/relevant skill range within 2D+1 to 4D, stormtroopers being a prime example.

With the armor penalty this puts them at 3D in blaster skill and they are not only qualified, they are and should be elite, despite the movies.

the question is then what is or should be considered a qualifying level.
I can see quite a difference in a +1D in blaster or dodge, than in command and tactics, all depending on the field trained.

my intent with the skill gain from same bonues on different attributes.

2D+1
Blaster 3D+1

4D+1
Blaster 5D+1

Here I see two people going through the same basic training, one qulaifies for commando traning the other one goes into an adminitative field, though he is still qualified in blaster.
he is not "specialized" in blaster like a front line soldier.

When I was in the army we had people with different physical attributes, some qualified for spec ops, others became administrative and personnel
I was generally average enough toqualify as infantly, however everyone qualified a minimum.

and just becuse I shot better than others did not in any way mean I didn't do the training, and didn't imporove my skill, and my in some cases much better skill than others.

some did wash out, yes, but even the cook and the supply clerk were minimum qulaified, they were in now way qualified in the extent an infantryman man was etc.

so just becuse the clerk increased his shooting, qualified anywhere above 2D he did recive benefit of his training and his shooting became 3D

I had 2D+2 and my shooting became 3D+2
even if the mere qulaification was 3D

I was then above 3D and then selected for infantry

both recivening the benfit of +1D to shooting.

I was a better shot than any of the supply clerks, they got better, I got better too.
it is not so that aif a soldier qualifies he stops traning, he trains and gets a higher score.

this is why some were slected as strontroopers, officers and the like, often when reading the fluff and the bios they graduated in the top tier and thus go this training, the others got training too. regular army, clerks etc.

so if qualifying is 50, stormies are selected at 85+ then the span in between is huge, and some can be at 60 when they enter training, they will however still benefir and have a chance to reach 85

so a 3D in blaster is 50, this is basic qualifying, then if you enter traning with that level you will now autmatically score higher and will be selected for the bucket corps or some other special ability.

3D to piloting allows you the basic operation of a craft, enough to do the job, but not enough to give you the manuver and tactics traning needed for combat, here the qualifiy is 4D.

howeverif entering school you have 4D in piloting you do still gain the benefits of the training raining your piloting above 4D and thus being seen as a top cadet and selected accordingly.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that's your goal, I would have the training provide character points to be put towards the specific skills, rather than providing Dice and pip bonuses directly.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
If that's your goal, I would have the training provide character points to be put towards the specific skills, rather than providing Dice and pip bonuses directly.


I considered this as well, however to me infantry do have a very standarized training, and to me being given X cp and raaising my busness skill makes little sense, raising my blaster makes more sense.

I like your idea though and maybe it could be given cps to be spent on a certain list of skills, I doubt even in star wars that a line infantry is thought much if anything of non combat skills.

Looking at the stats and skills of the stomtroopers, common troopers, i rarely see the anything screaming diplomat or politican, I see combatant.

However a list of skills, blaster, command, repulsorlit operation, first aid etc, could be something to allocate the training cp to.


15 cp allocated to the list max 1D in nay one skill or something, this way perhaps training is more up to the individual while be still being at least within the realm of standardized.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that's what I meant.

Have a list of skills in the training and you have X points.

Because otherwise someone who already has two dice in blasters takes the training and ends up with a plus one die for the final total of three dice.

But as you said earlier someone who already has three dice who takes the training we'll get a little bit better and should get some sort of bonus.

But if someone already had six dice in blaster, would it really be fair to give him another whole die?

The difference in character points is huge.

When I designed my Homebrew military RPG, I worked at something similar to that, where each training course gave a number of skills with a number of points similar to character points.

All of the skill ratings were cumulative.

After all the character creation and course selection was done, the points beside each skill would be converted to the final score

For example basic training might give you 6 points in firearms

If you also took infantry training you might get another 12 points in firearms

If you also took a course in reconnaissance Patrol, most of the points would be assigned to stealth skills and other related skills, but you also might get three more points add to firearms

So at the end of the character creation process you see how many points you've accumulated in firearms and then you would convert that to die code as if you had spent all those points as character points raising firearms

I hope that explanation makes sense
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Yes, that's what I meant.

Have a list of skills in the training and you have X points.

Because otherwise someone who already has two dice in blasters takes the training and ends up with a plus one die for the final total of three dice.

But as you said earlier someone who already has three dice who takes the training we'll get a little bit better and should get some sort of bonus.

But if someone already had six dice in blaster, would it really be fair to give him another whole die?

The difference in character points is huge.

When I designed my Homebrew military RPG, I worked at something similar to that, where each training course gave a number of skills with a number of points similar to character points.

All of the skill ratings were cumulative.

After all the character creation and course selection was done, the points beside each skill would be converted to the final score

For example basic training might give you 6 points in firearms

If you also took infantry training you might get another 12 points in firearms

If you also took a course in reconnaissance Patrol, most of the points would be assigned to stealth skills and other related skills, but you also might get three more points add to firearms

So at the end of the character creation process you see how many points you've accumulated in firearms and then you would convert that to die code as if you had spent all those points as character points raising firearms

I hope that explanation makes sense



This sounds great.

I just have to get my list going hehe
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Have a list of skills in the training and you have X points.
When we've had Rebels go through some type of basic training we just eyeballed what increase the characters received. Usually improvements were focused on improving deficiencies or picking up a specialization - sort of an MOS.

Quote:
But if someone already had six dice in blaster, would it really be fair to give him another whole die?

The difference in character points is huge.
Which is why we mostly mitigated deficiencies. Though I will note that this difference already occurs during character creation. The brash pilot and the bounty hunter may each add 1D to their piloting. But the pilot ends up at 5D while the hunter ends up at 3D+2. If they improve blaster or dodge this switches.

The more PCs that go through training and the more varied the characters skills are at the start, the more basing it on a CP award for specific skills makes sense. You seem like you are off to a good start.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
You seem like you are off to a good start.


My homebrew system wasn't built around D6 but the concept should work similarly.

When characters picked their training 'courses' they would often get side-skills that might have been extraneous to what they intended, but would have been picked up as part of the training. Because you HAD to acquire all of the skills in that package.

Because a lot of the training overlapped and the skills stacked, it was possible for characters to develop some obscure skills to reasonable competency...which was always really handy when some strange circumstance might call for the use of that skill.

"Does anyone here know how to milk a cow??"

The home brew game had a LOT more crunch in the skills whereas Star Wars is pretty loose with the skills....which works for Star Wars. But my game needed that nitpicky detail since the focus of the game was pretty much based on highly skilled operators and their personal gear on a mission rather than the wide-open galaxy of adventure.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What skills would reasobaly a star wars soldier be trained in.

lets us not in any way shape or form think of someone like luke who was an excellent bush pilot, but lets think the average joe joining the military.

We can compare this to joining the military as a conscript or after high school.

So lets look at a list of basic skills for all soldiers, before they recieven any occupational specialty.

Blaster
Blaster Artillery
Dodge
Grenade
Missile Weapons
Run
Vehicle Blasters
Survival
Tactics
Command
Search
Brawling
Lifting
Blaster Repair
Demolitions
Computer Programming/Repair
First Aid

These are the skills I can up with that seems most reasonable to include in basic training, with some of them being further spcialized in the various MOS
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This would depend on what YOU mean by "basic" training.

In the US army, "basic" training includes HMMWV training (and all equipment, including vehicles, includes user-level maintenance training).

So, I could see adding repulsorlift operation and repulsorlift repair to the list.

Radio communication is also "basic." So, let's add communications.

Most people ("average Joes") would also gain a significant amount of stamina and willpower by completing basic training (especially in D6, the way that willpower and stamina interact is particularly interesting).

An argument could easily be made that it is impossible to complete basic training without a certain amount of willpower to overcome the limits of both physical and emotional fatigue.

In fact, the most desirable quality in a soldier is steadfastness. You could say that willpower is the most basic of all soldier skills (I know this flies in the face of typical "gaming" archetypes, but, it's true).
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said.

I agree that the list could include much more skills.

The willpower thing to me is basically the "trained dicipline" aspect, a trained soldier will imo react with less fear to a combat situation that a civilian.

Now since most in star wars at least know and have experienced some form of violence and combat and learned to live in a society not 100% safe, we could assum that the 2D Knowledge average will allow on a good roll any difficulty of 5-10 and this since we do see the buckets have a flat 2D, but skill points to willpower, I think a flat 2D with the possible of success on a difficulty 10 should be enough, mostly becuse it would in most cases be rolls related to the training, rolls for situations you would generally not encounter as a civilian.
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