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Mamatried
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 Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:52 pm Post subject: GAR vs Galactic Empire, Who would win? |
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Who would win?
The grand Army of the Republic at the height of the clone wars, vs battle of Yavin galactic Empire, who would win?
No jedi, not force users, just military vs military.
I have a feeling that the victory will go to GAR |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:29 am Post subject: |
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Where as i feel the victory would go to the empire..
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RyanDarkstar
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:26 am Post subject: |
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I'd go with the Empire as the victors. All Imperial tech came out of the Clone Wars, so their capital ships would decimate the GAR. On the ground, the AT-ATs and other assault vehicles would, likewise, crush the GAR.
Both sides seem to have the same mentality: throw everything at the enemy in a frontal assault. The Empire just has the better/more powerful toys.
Now if you're talking clonetrooper vs. stormtrooper, that would be up for debate. In Rebels, Rex claims the clone armor and weapons were superior to the stormtrooper armor and E-11 blaster, calling the latter "junk." This could be bias, as he was breed an ARC trooper and continued to use the armor and blasters he was trained to use.
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:42 am Post subject: |
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To me, that is similar to asking:
If the US military from the Viet nam war fought the US military from the war in Afghanistan. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:23 am Post subject: |
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The most obvious answer is Palpatine...
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| Dredwulf60 wrote: | To me, that is similar to asking:
If the US military from the Viet nam war fought the US military from the war in Afghanistan. |
Much of the equipment is actually vietnam era, or withing 1-3 years after.
1975 was the end of the vietnam war, look to fighter planes, rifles, weapon systems, a large numner were in use in 1975 and before, though they are more modenaized and improved.
however I do not think that in 20 years the tech neither on earth or in star wars moves that fast into the extremes.
TIE fighters was used extensively during the cone wars, the death star was more than just a concept, the fist ISDs was produced and even saw service during the conflict.
so it would be Desert Storm US vs Afganistan US to compare, aka 95% same equipmnet |
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| GCW era. Cause they have a fully operational death star. The clones seem to have plot armor, which I assume is off the table for purposes of this discussion. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Dredwulf60 wrote: | To me, that is similar to asking:
If the US military from the Viet nam war fought the US military from the war in Afghanistan. |
Well, in nam, we didn't have body armor. BUT in Afgan we did.
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | GCW era. Cause they have a fully operational death star. The clones seem to have plot armor, which I assume is off the table for purposes of this discussion. |
No plot armor.
I base my take that GAR would win due to tactical doctrine, and that if we look to the stats alone, and even fluff and what is said and stated through books and out of movies material, then the cone trooper armor should give better mobility at the same if not better protection, though at a higher cost.
The empire's army and Stormtrooper corps is nothing new and inovative, it is a somple copy and continuation of the GAR though without troops especially bred for combat.
If we look to the peroid upto and including battle of yavin, GAR ships were used in large numbers, though in differnt tactical roles due to doctrine,
as to being matched, I would say they are withing 10-20 years of eachother with very little new innovations on a grand army scale. |
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Dredwulf60 wrote: | To me, that is similar to asking:
If the US military from the Viet nam war fought the US military from the war in Afghanistan. |
Well, in nam, we didn't have body armor. BUT in Afgan we did. |
Well, you had body armour in Nam, it just wasn't widely used.
Fun fact...when I joined the CAF in 1992, we were using pretty much the same uniform pattern/ colour webbing, helmets, radio, flak jackets, weapons and kit that you guys had been using in 'Nam !
Canadian soldier on the left 1990 (not me btw...)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Oka_stare_down.jpg
Last edited by Dredwulf60 on Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Dredwulf60 wrote: | To me, that is similar to asking:
If the US military from the Viet nam war fought the US military from the war in Afghanistan. |
Well, in nam, we didn't have body armor. BUT in Afgan we did. |
Yeah, there was body armor in Vietnam. Flak vests go back to WWII in the US military but took awhile to become ubiquitous. I think there's even body armor on the Three Soldiers war memorial statues. Or some of them, anyway. |
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | The most obvious answer is Palpatine... |
Yeah, didn't we have a Rebels episode that asked something very similar?
If we go by sheer power and size alone, the Empire has far more men, materiel and logistical power than the GAR ever did. The Empire conscripted or recruited more men than the GAR ever had, built bigger and more starships than the GAR had, and had 20 years to establish more bases/garrisons, shipyards, munitions factories, and supply lines as well as a wartime economy that was started (at least) as soon as Palpatine hammily shouted "THE FIRST GALACTIC EMPIRE!" and may very well have been started as soon Yoda sadly declared, "begun the Clone War has" if we include the Republic's Clone War materiel as part of the Empire's buildup. Which effectively means that the GAR had a wartime economy lasting 3 years, while the Empire had a wartime economy that lasted 20-23 years (if we set the effective economic end date for the Empire at 0 BBY). It's easy to do the math.
And that's to say nothing of how Palpatine managed to subvert galactic culture over 20 years with COMPNOR, the ISB, and the Moffs and Grand Moffs who controlled the entire galactic bureaucracy and answered only to him. Wars are political exercises just as much as they are military exercises. Just one example: without political backing from France back during the Revolutionary War, America would never have won the war and gotten independence. Also, remember this quote from Sun Tzu, one of history's greatest generals: "Wars are moral contests and they're won in the temples before they're ever fought." This basically means that getting political support and legitimacy is at least as important as the military tactics to win a war. Remember how nearly the entire galaxy was so traumatized by the Clone War that they openly applauded a fascist dictator when he took over the government? That's the sort of political power I'm talking about. And that was just the start of Palpatine's regime as the Emperor (he was already Chancellor for 13 years by that time). After 20 more years (33 years total if we include his time as Chancellor), his political power just continued to grow, though to be fair, so did secret (and not so secret) opposition to his rule. But there's no denying that Palpatine, politically speaking, was dug in like a tick at 0 BBY. (The guy was a master manipulator, after all, and knew just how important political support was.)
With all those advantages, I don't think there's any question that in a straight up fight, the GAR wouldn't be able to stand against the Empire. The Rebels managed to do more with less, of course, but that's specifically because they knew from the outset that they couldn't win a straight-up fight and adjusted their tactics and strategy accordingly.
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Potroclo
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:09 am Post subject: |
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Well if the Alliance defeated the Empire with only one jedi, who was only a fighter pilot, and the GAR had thousands of jedi, many of them generals...
Oh yes, Order 66. Nevermind, Empire wins. Any day.  |
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Beyond political support from France, they sent the Americans an army and a fleet, and prior to that provided arms, etc. The political side of it is more that Spain and Holland also sided with America. They didn't do much compared to France so it's forgotten now, but it meant that they weren't helping Britain either. So aside from the ancestral connection of the British royal family with Germany, they were kinda stuck going it alone.
Despite the romance of hiding behind trees and Rogers Rangers and all that, the decisive battles in both the French & Indian War, and the American Revolution, were fought in traditional European linear fashion. Because once you get more than a couple hundred people in one place, there isn't much else you can effectively do with them until the invention of portable radios. Side rant, over.
I do think the empire would win, for the economic reasons as well as the fact that removing Jedi would leave the GAR without a lot of its command structure. Not sure how you'd remove Jedi and still have it be a fair contest. |
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Beyond political support from France, they sent the Americans an army and a fleet, and prior to that provided arms, etc. The political side of it is more that Spain and Holland also sided with America. They didn't do much compared to France so it's forgotten now, but it meant that they weren't helping Britain either. So aside from the ancestral connection of the British royal family with Germany, they were kinda stuck going it alone. |
Exactly as you say, TS. That perfectly illustrates how political support can help win a war even if it doesn't win you as many men and weapons as you'd prefer. As long as you can sideline any possible allies from going over to your enemy's camp, that's still a net win for you since it keeps your enemy from getting stronger.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | I do think the empire would win, for the economic reasons as well as the fact that removing Jedi would leave the GAR without a lot of its command structure. Not sure how you'd remove Jedi and still have it be a fair contest. |
To be fair to Mamatried, I think his question presupposes that whatever loss the GAR would suffer in its chain of command by not having Jedi would be counter-balanced by the regular/clone officers still remaining in the GAR after you remove the Jedi. Without that counter-balance, the GAR would be effectively decapitated by losing so much of its officer corps and the advantage the Empire would have as a result (even disregarding the wartime economy and size and everything else we previously mentioned) would still be overwhelming. Like how an army without an intelligence service has no nervous system or how an army without a logistics/transport corps has no muscles, an army without an officer corps has no brain. As we all know, that's a bad way to fight a war.
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