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"Capital Ship Scale" and larger space transports
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Star Warriors was based on WEG Star Wars 1e space combat.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Or we want something simple, not something more granular and more complex.

I would suggest that selectively restricting the scales of certain ships in order to make them more vulnerable to strafing runs from starfighters is also granular and more complex, just in a different way.

Quote:
WEG Star Wars isn't designed for fighting fleet battles. The intent of the designers is that fleet battles (and large ground and sea battles) are the background around which an adventure plays out, not the main focus of the adventure and the existing scale rules work well for that purpose.

I've made some steps in this area, but it seems that the best approach is a system that treats individual capital ships and/or fighter squadrons under the direct command of a single player character.

Quote:
And while the 2R&E scale rules that add dice is easier to understand, I'm unconvinced that bonus dice or a bigger bucket of dice yields a better result in play. Rather it puts greater focus on the inconsistencies in the hodgepodge of weapon, hull, and shield dice that capital ships have in the rules. The die codes for capital ships are all over the map. Just look at the weapon damage ratings for Star Destroyers. It's as if at the Battle of Jutland, one class of British battleship was armed with multiple 12"guns while another class was armed entirely with 5" guns. And yet the description for both vessels sound like they are intended to be similar ships of the line. It's like the designers didn't care or maybe they weren't thinking about ever rolling out dice for one fleet of capital ships against another fleet of capital ships.

I agree, which is why I undertook my massive stat rewrite project, in order to standardize weapon systems and give ships at least a semblance of parity.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew this had come up somewhere else...
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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Bren wrote:
Or we want something simple, not something more granular and more complex.

I would suggest that selectively restricting the scales of certain ships in order to make them more vulnerable to strafing runs from starfighters is also granular and more complex, just in a different way.
Only if you are trying to stat all ships rather than statting the 1 transport ship that is of interest in some specific adventure. And it's not any different than what was already done with the Skipray Blast Boat.

But if greater simplicity is desired, treat all space transports (i.e. ships flown with the space transports skill) that way. If the ship was all that robust then they should be using capital ship skills to operate it instead of space transports.

Quote:
I agree, which is why I undertook my massive stat rewrite project, in order to standardize weapon systems and give ships at least a semblance of parity.
It has been a long time since I looked at your ship stats. My recollection is that your stats are dependent on your revised scaling.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Only if you are trying to stat all ships rather than statting the 1 transport ship that is of interest in some specific adventure.

And as I said, there are better ways to achieve that result than shoe-horning a one-off exception into the Scale system, as the law of unintended consequences is bound to rear its head at some point.

Quote:
And it's not any different than what was already done with the Skipray Blast Boat.

It is, actually. Despite the disparity in size, the Skipray was placed clearly in one Scale category, and received both the advantages and disadvantages of said Scale, not the worst of both.

The closest exception is the Sun Crusher, which (IIRC) was Starfighter-scale, but with a 30D Hull (effectively 6D Death Star-Scale).

EDIT: My bad: 50D, which is actually 20D Death Star Scale.

Quote:
But if greater simplicity is desired, treat all space transports (i.e. ships flown with the space transports skill) that way. If the ship was all that robust then they should be using capital ship skills to operate it instead of space transports.

Except that the description of Space Transports specifically states it can be used for both Starfighter and Capital Scale Transports. I think you're right, that the Capital-Scale Transports should be under Capital Ship Piloting (or Capital Ship Operation, preferably), but the official sources say the opposite.

Quote:
It has been a long time since I looked at your ship stats. My recollection is that your stats are dependent on your revised scaling.

They are. I had originally planned to do two sets of parallel stats, one for the RAW and one for my revised system, but the more I got into it, the more irretrievably broken I found the RAW scale system to be. The fact that you're advocating deliberately breaking it in order to put a civilian freighter into the threat range for starfighters is just one more piece of evidence in the stack.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Quote:
And it's not any different than what was already done with the Skipray Blast Boat.

It is, actually.
Literally, yes. Analogically no. My recollection is that the Skipray actually gets some of the advantages of both scales.

Quote:
The closest exception is the Sun Crusher, which (IIRC) was Starfighter-scale, but with a 30D Hull (effectively 6D Death Star-Scale).

EDIT: My bad: 50D, which is actually 20D Death Star Scale.
Anything with the Suncrusher in it should be ignored. Laughing

Quote:
Quote:
But if greater simplicity is desired, treat all space transports (i.e. ships flown with the space transports skill) that way. If the ship was all that robust then they should be using capital ship skills to operate it instead of space transports.

Except that the description of Space Transports specifically states it can be used for both Starfighter and Capital Scale Transports. I think you're right, that the Capital-Scale Transports should be under Capital Ship Piloting (or Capital Ship Operation, preferably), but the official sources say the opposite.
I know. This would be house ruling otherwise.

Quote:
Quote:
It has been a long time since I looked at your ship stats. My recollection is that your stats are dependent on your revised scaling.

They are.
Which decreases the value of new stats for anyone who doesn't want to adopt your scaling.

Quote:
I had originally planned to do two sets of parallel stats, one for the RAW and one for my revised system, but the more I got into it, the more irretrievably broken I found the RAW scale system to be. The fact that you're advocating deliberately breaking it in order to put a civilian freighter into the threat range for starfighters is just one more piece of evidence in the stack.
That's not a problem with the scale rules per se. It's a problem of categorization (wrong scale) and inconsistent and sometimes not well thought out ship stats (bad stats).

I'm just laying out my perspective. I know you aren't going to agree. You already have far too much time, effort, and emotional energy invested in your new stats and new scaling.
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Telsij
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, CRMcNeill, Bren, Raven Redstar, Whill, and MamaTried for the great feedback and discussion here.

Enjoyed hearing the different approaches, criteria, arguments/counterarguments.

(And haha, I'd forgotten how insane the Suncrusher stats were, now I'll have to take another look.)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
My recollection is that the Skipray actually gets some of the advantages of both scales.

I recollect differently. As far as I remember, the Skipray was always treated as fully Capital-Scale, with only a couple of the weapon systems being Starfighter-Scale (I generally went with the laser cannon and the Proton Torpedoes, while the Concussion Missiles and Ion Cannon were Capital-Scale).

Quote:
Anything with the Suncrusher in it should be ignored. Laughing

Agreed.

Quote:
Which decreases the value of new stats for anyone who doesn't want to adopt your scaling.
Quote:
That's not a problem with the scale rules per se. It's a problem of categorization (wrong scale) and inconsistent and sometimes not well thought out ship stats (bad stats).

But there are serious problems with the Scale System, particularly the huge 6D gap between Starfighter and Capital Ship, as well as cramming everything from 90-meter-long GR75 Transports to the 17,500 meter Eclipse SSD into the same Scale category. As Raven pointed out, it makes it very difficult for starfighters to attack and damage even the weakest of Capital-Scale ships without inserting a special rule specifically to make said ships more vulnerable. It gets even sillier when one bears in mind the multiple WEG references to the threat that starfighters pose to capital ships, while at the same time providing little or no framework within which that threat can be realized at the gaming table. And thus, a new scale system was needed. WEG even took a similar approach in their post-SW D6 Space System (although they used flat modifiers instead of dice).

It's not just that I've invested a lot of time and energy into my own system, it's that the flaws - flaws which you've pointed out yourself - make it clear that the RAW is broken, both in terms of stats and of combat rules.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Bren wrote:
My recollection is that the Skipray actually gets some of the advantages of both scales.

I recollect differently. As far as I remember, the Skipray was always treated as fully Capital-Scale, with only a couple of the weapon systems being Starfighter-Scale (I generally went with the laser cannon and the Proton Torpedoes, while the Concussion Missiles and Ion Cannon were Capital-Scale).
According to the Imperial Source Book, the Ion cannon is the only capital scale weapon. All other weapons are starfighter scale. The mix of scale for weapons makes it a better anti-starfighter vessel than it would otherwise be, while the capital scale ion cannon means it can effectively attack the smaller capital scale ships. That weapon versatility is part of what I meant by the best of the two scales.

I had thought there was more alternation between scales. You are correct that only the weapons are statted as starfighter scale, though the fluff text talks how maneuverable the ship is in atmosphere - which is contradicted unless you allow starfighter scale maneuvering in atmosphere. I never liked the Skipray much and I'm pretty sure I altered the stats. That probably added to my mistake in thinking there was more best of both worlds than exists by the RAW stats.

Quote:
But there are serious problems with the Scale System...
There and there aren't. It is mostly a problem for capital scale vs capital scale combat which is not what the game is designed to do because fighting capital scale vs capital scale ship battles isn't what we see the heroes doing in the original trilogy. One could argue that Akbar is an exception, but there really isn't anything much going on tactically on a ship vs ship level. It's all a space battle background to the actual story or adventure. In typical play the players aren't running fleets in space just like they aren't running regiments on the ground. The rules presume that large battles are a scenic back drop where the GM is running both sides. The rules say almost exactly that.

So the scale system is not more a problem than is the lack of a system for running large ground battles.

Quote:
As Raven pointed out, it makes it very difficult for starfighters to attack and damage even the weakest of Capital-Scale ships without inserting a special rule specifically to make said ships more vulnerable.
Damaging the weakest capital scale ships is one problem. But it's not the only problem and arguably not the most important problem from an actual play standpoint. Another problem that occurs in play is starfighters having some way to threaten large ships like a Star Destroyer. Your scale rule won't do anything to fix that.

But there is a simple solution that doesn't involve a new scale system. Allow the starfighter to target an individual systems on a capital ship e.g. a single turbolaser mount, a sensor antenna, or a shield array. We see this happen several times in the movies, most noticeably in the original Death Star trench run.

And I believe I read an optional rule in some WEG published supplement that allows attacks directly against an individual turbolaser mount by treating the turbolaser as starfigher scale for damage resistance and for targeting. So it is easier to damage but harder to hit than targeting the ship itself. Large ships without an adequate anti-starfighter defense now become vulnerable to repeated strikes that slowly erode the capability of the ship without destroying it.

If one doesn't like the treat transports as starfighter scale solution, then using the same targeting individual systems for smaller capital ships would work as well.

Quote:
It's not just that I've invested a lot of time and energy into my own system, it's that the flaws - flaws which you've pointed out yourself - make it clear that the RAW is broken, both in terms of stats and of combat rules.
First, as I've said, for actual game purposes I don't think the RAW is truly broken. And for the rare capital ship vs capital ship battles that are going to be played out at the table, just changing the scale doesn't fix the problem. You also have to change all the ship stats. And even once you've done that, I still think you won't have a viable way to fight large ship encounters or battles that leads to a consistent AND interesting combat. The weapon damage dice compared to the hull dice just don't make sense and allowing the combined fire rules to operate exacerbates the problem.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to the skipray I think there was a capsule somwhere that the ship only counted as captal due to the energy output of the ion cannon but was starfither scale in everthing else, including maneuver, shileds and the like.

Now we could ask, ia starfighter armed with a turbolaser, whic is not common but absolutely possible, and this canon is designed to deal damage to captal ships, with blaster cannons for smaller ship, is this craft then a captal ship? no it is a starfighter scale ship with a weapon system that is captal scale.
and if used on a startfhgiter scale ship ....overkill.

but the skipray is still a starfighter scale vessel in everthing but the damage scale of one weapon system.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Bren wrote:
My recollection is that the Skipray actually gets some of the advantages of both scales.

I recollect differently. As far as I remember, the Skipray was always treated as fully Capital-Scale, with only a couple of the weapon systems being Starfighter-Scale (I generally went with the laser cannon and the Proton Torpedoes, while the Concussion Missiles and Ion Cannon were Capital-Scale).


Just sharing here so we don't have to depend on our recollections... From the Starship Stats fan compilation...

Quote:
Skypray Blastboat
Craft: Sienar Fleet Systems GAT-12j Skypray
Affiliation: Empire / General
Era: Rise of the Empire
Source: Imperial Sourcebook (pages 50-51), Heir to the
Empire Sourcebook (pages 139-142), The Thrawn Trilogy
Sourcebook (pages 239-242), Pirates & Privateers (page 86),
Starships of the Galaxy (pages 84-85), The Essential Guide
to Vehicles and Vessels (pages 142-143)
Type: Defense and patrol blastboat
Scale: Capital (due to power output)
Length: 25 meters
Skill: Starfighter piloting: skypray blastboat
Crew: 2 (1 can coordinate), gunners: 2, skeleton:1/+5
Crew Skill: Astrogation 4D, capital ship gunnery 5D,
starfighter piloting 4D, starship gunnery 5D+1, starship
shields 4D+1
Cargo Capacity: 20 metric tons
Consumables: 1 month
Cost: 285,000 (new), 150,000 (used)
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x2
Nav Computer: Limited to 4 jumps
Maneuverability: 1D+2 (2D+2 in atmosphere)
Space: 8
Atmosphere: 415; 1,200 kmh
Hull: 2D+1
Shields: 2D
Sensors:
Passive: 35/1D
Scan: 60/1D+2
Search: 100/2D
Focus: 3/2D+2
Weapons:

3 Medium Ion Cannons (fire linked)
Fire Arc: Front
Crew: 1
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range: 100-300/1.2/2.5 km
Damage: 4D

Proton Torpedo Launcher
Fire Arc: Front
Crew: 1 (same gunner as ion cannon)
Scale: Starfighter
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 1/3/7
Atmosphere Range: 50-100/300/700
Damage: 9D

2 Laser Cannons (fire-linked)
Fire Arc: Turret
Crew: 1
Scale: Starfighter
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range: 100-300/1.2/2.5 km
Damage: 5D

Concussion Missile Launcher (GAT-12j model only) (24
missiles carried)
Fire Arc: Front
Crew: 1 (same gunner as ion cannon)
Scale: Starfighter
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 1D
Space range: 1/3/7
Atmosphere Range: 1-50/100/250
Damage: 6D

Tractor Beam Projector (GAT-12g model only)
Fire Arc: Front
Crew: 1 (same gunner as ion cannon)
Scale: Starfighter
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 4D
Space range: 1-3/8/12
Atmosphere Range: 100-300/800/1.2 km
Damage: 6D


The comment about its power output in the scale stat is just to explain why a ship this small is capital ship scale - That comment has no game mechanical effect. Weapons could always be of various scales, so according to RAW this is a capital ship scale ship and thus a 6D scale difference from starfighter scale. I'm pretty sure I have never used this ship unless it was part of a published adventure.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually got to chat with the original content contributor who designed the Skipray for the 1E Sourcebook (she was a member of the G+ community). She said she had intended it as a patrol/anti-ship bomber. It’s also important to note the timing of publication: the 1E Imperial Sourcebook was published nine months after the Rules Companion, so at that time, WEG had recognized the possibility of PC’s engaging in Capital Ship combat, and had provided at least basic rules for it. This includes the first use of the Die Cap scaling system, as well as rules for combined fire by multiple starfighters (essentially treating them as a flying gun battery), so combat between different scales of targets was possible at the time the Skipray was first created.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since we are talking about the Skipray here, I was wondering if not the B wing should have a capital scale weapon, as it seems this is the canon purpose of the ship, to target captial ships, while often escorted by A wings or other fighters.

now the B wing is fairly small, it is long and thin and if it can mount captal scale weapons, then what will do to this thread, as this is actually something that is cmming up more and more.

Now what I would think could be done was actually on some specialized ships of starfighter scale and maybe frighters to actually have mixed weapons.
much like larger ships.

lets stake a random freighter, add a capital scale light turbolaser on it, since these can be mounted in fairly small starfighters , this should no pose a problem.
Then keep a starfighter scale weapon system, maybe dual laser cannons.
Then when using the ship you simply apply the scale to the weapon, naturally the heavier weapons will need more power so when using this , reduce speed, maneuver, shileds etc to "mimic" the power transfer to the heavier systems.

if we look to corvette size ships we see this, often a fair mi of starfiter and capital scale weaponry, and when starfiters can fit light turbolasers and these are actually capital scale then why should the freighters and transports that fall in between starfiters and corvettes be able to?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because a Capital-Scale B-Wing is effectively invulnerable to other starfighters - especially light fighters like TIEs - due to the +6D modifier to Hull. Vulnerability to other fighters is the B’s main weakness per the RAW. A simpler solution would be to adjust the scales so that the smaller capital ships were more vulnerable to heavier SF-Scale weaponry. I seem to recall seeing that around here somewhere...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Rebel Sourcebook says the B-wing was designed to have a chance at damaging frigates and escort cruisers. Changing scales doesn't make the B-wing a better anti-capital ship assault starfigher than an X-wing or Y-wing.

The simplest solution that addresses the text is to leave the scale alone and give the B-wing a capital scale weapon. Changing the laser cannon to 4D capital scale would allow it to have a reasonable chance to damage frigate sized capital ships, especially if 2 or more B-wings combined their fire.

Note that Star Wars canon now conflicts with the WEG rationale and history for the B-wing design.
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