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Advanced Specialization
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another wrinkle for me is how this affects my Lightsaber Combat system. As is, all the various Forms are full-fledged Advanced Skills, but I had to work in special rules in order to keep them competitive with just improving the basic Lightsaber skill.

Of course, if I make them all Advanced Specializations instead, that throws off the math...

Much to grok.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Another wrinkle for me is how this affects my Lightsaber Combat system. As is, all the various Forms are full-fledged Advanced Skills, but I had to work in special rules in order to keep them competitive with just improving the basic Lightsaber skill.

Of course, if I make them all Advanced Specializations instead, that throws off the math...

Much to grok.


I'm not seeing a problem, here. The Lightsabe skill doesn't have any specializations available to it. Why would the Advanced skills?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL! With everything I've changed, do you think I'll balk for even a second at throwing out Lightsaber, too?

I've never thought Lightsaber was sufficiently different from Melee Combat to necessitate being a completely separate skill; there are other, more exotic melee weapons far more difficult to wield than what is essentially a sword. Making Lightsaber an Advanced Skill with Melee Combat as a prerequisite is a possibility, but I see some complications there, as well.

As I said, much to grok...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Another wrinkle for me is how this affects my Lightsaber Combat system. As is, all the various Forms are full-fledged Advanced Skills, but I had to work in special rules in order to keep them competitive with just improving the basic Lightsaber skill.

Of course, if I make them all Advanced Specializations instead, that throws off the math...

Much to grok.


I'm not seeing a problem, here. The Lightsabe skill doesn't have any specializations available to it. Why would the Advanced skills?


Actually lightsaber does.

look to the shadow guard, they have specialization Lightsaber-Pike
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
LOL! With everything I've changed, do you think I'll balk for even a second at throwing out Lightsaber, too?

I've never thought Lightsaber was sufficiently different from Melee Combat to necessitate being a completely separate skill; there are other, more exotic melee weapons far more difficult to wield than what is essentially a sword. Making Lightsaber an Advanced Skill with Melee Combat as a prerequisite is a possibility, but I see some complications there, as well.

As I said, much to grok...


I suppose that depends on what you consider the lightsaber skill to "allow." Under the Melee Combat skill, I'd allow basic melee combat or using the weapon as a tool (like Han cutting open the tauntaun).

I would require the lightsaber skill if the intent is to "fight like a Jedi" (which, in game terms means adding control dice to damage, deflecting and redirecting blaster bolts, etc.). Other weapons (even energy weapons) do not have these properties, and to allow them to would fundamentally unravel one of the most iconic notions in the SW Universe. (By implying that the lightsaber is a "mere" melee weapon, you open the door to using electrostaves or lightfoils and other energy-based weapons doing lightsaber-specific things.)
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if said weapons are capable of deflecting blaster bolts, then why wouldn't they be able to be used as such? One of the many problems I have with how WEG structured lightsaber combat is how much emphasis it placed on the lightsaber, and not on the Jedi holding it. The Force flows through the Jedi; a lightsaber is ultimately just a tool said Jedi uses. A finely crafted tool with special properties, certainly, but the Jedi's ability to sense and use the Force is not enhanced just because he happens to be holding a lightsaber.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Well, if said weapons are capable of deflecting blaster bolts, then why wouldn't they be able to be used as such? One of the many problems I have with how WEG structured lightsaber combat is how much emphasis it placed on the lightsaber, and not on the Jedi holding it. The Force flows through the Jedi; a lightsaber is ultimately just a tool said Jedi uses. A finely crafted tool with special properties, certainly, but the Jedi's ability to sense and use the Force is not enhanced just because he happens to be holding a lightsaber.


To me a lightsaber is a melee weapon like any other, just an enegy type.
anyone with the skill would be abl to use this, look at how sabine uses the black saber, she blocks and parries.

now to the extent of deflectin blaster bolts back at the shooter, jedi style as well as other ways of making the weaoin into something more, i would say would need some level of the force, but as to use this as a melee weapon and even to black and maybe the occational blaster bolt I would say would be covered by melee lightsaber
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Well, if said weapons are capable of deflecting blaster bolts, then why wouldn't they be able to be used as such? One of the many problems I have with how WEG structured lightsaber combat is how much emphasis it placed on the lightsaber, and not on the Jedi holding it. The Force flows through the Jedi; a lightsaber is ultimately just a tool said Jedi uses. A finely crafted tool with special properties, certainly, but the Jedi's ability to sense and use the Force is not enhanced just because he happens to be holding a lightsaber.


Yes it is. The act of making the lightsaber is 90% force and 10% tech. There is a reason why the crafting of a lightsaber represents "completion" of Jedi training.

A Jedi's understanding of the force is expressed by his use of the lightsaber. To put it another way, the Jedi's ability to wield a lightsaber is directly connected to his understanding of the force.

The use of the force is fundamental to the proficient use of the lightsaber as evidenced by dialogue and other aspects of the films and shows.

Luke's first lessons with the force are with the lightsaber. His training is declared complete by Vader when he examines Luke's lightsaber.

Luminara and Bariss:
The crystal is the heart of the blade. The blade is the heart of the Jedi; the Jedi is the crystal of the force; the force is the blade of the Jedi (or something like that).

We can cite Disney all we want (Finn with a lightasaber) but based on pretty much everything Disney, do we really expect them to have a clue what a lightsaber is or what it represents?

Anyway, I've pretty much settled on the notion that lightsabers are special and unique. To treat them like a regular melee weapon ruins their esoteric nature.

Having said all that, I'll do my best to give input that is helpful to what you want to achieve, if I come up with anything (even though it may go against my grain Razz )
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you’re reading too much mystic significance into those quotes. Yes, a Jedi uses the Force to construct a lightsaber, and as a result, it is far more reliable and capable than would a similar weapon built without the assistance of the Force (see Lightfoils). And yes, a Jedi’s intimate familiarity with his lightsaber (enhanced by extensive practice with it) will create a connection that would not be present in a mundane device. Vader could just as easily have been commenting on the precision and craftsmanship evidenced by the saber’s assembly as evidence of Luke’s connection to the Force, and the other quote sounds more like ritualistic dogma than literal fact.

A lightsaber is not a Kaiburr Crystal with a handle. The Jedi is capable of amazing feats with the saber because of his connection to the Force, and the months, years, or even decades he has put into mastering both it and himself. His connection to the Force does not increase or decrease just because he has a lightsaber in his hand.

The WEG focus on lightsabers as an essential component to a Jedi’s formidable combat prowess ignores how Jedi can be equally adept flying a starfighter, if needs be. And if they can use the Force to enhance their flying skills, they should certainly be able to enhance the use of non-lightsaber weapons, too. Heck, Joruus C’baoth blocked a blaster bolt with telekinesis and a rock.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. And I think you're over simplifying it. No biggie.
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