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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16173 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:15 am Post subject: |
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The point I was going for was that the Alliance was not a conventional nation state, with the resources and territory that entails, but was instead an insurgent group, and that that would have a huge effect on their personnel and equipment pipeline. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot to choose from for well-known modern rebellions that haven't gotten their hands dirty (often by deliberate policy choice), and Naaman took exception to the differences. So I offered up a more "honorable" example, only to be told "well, they probably committed atrocities, too," at which point the obvious response was "there are atrocities and then there are atrocities ."
And I can't believe I'm still having to explain the difference. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:23 am Post subject: |
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I've added a "generic" repulsor truck to the Wilderness Fighters entry. This serves as an approximation for what I'd like to see as the "HMMWV" of the Rebel Alliance.
I would also like to include an option for some trucks to be equipped with a sensor/communications jammer (at the expense of cargo capacity).
I'm also thinking of adding a magna hitch that will allow one truck to tow another one in the event that it gets damaged from combat or a crash or the crew injured/slain or whatever.
The weapons I've added as options have a few trade-offs:
The medium repeater can be carried on foot, so it would allow a soldier to bring it with him if he needed to abandon the vehicle for whatever reason (conversely, if he had it and then needed to crew an unarmed vehicle, he could add a weapon to that vehicle).
The EWHB and other weapons are not man-portable, but they offer significantly more firepower.
In particular, if anyone sees issues with how the weapons work in actual play, let me know (I'm trying to use rules that fit into RAW and do not require the establishment of new mechanics).
Sensors: what kinds of ranges and capabilities seem appropriate for "speeder scale" sensors?
Also, is there a formula for converting a vehicle's max km/h speed into a "move" rating?
I didn't feel like writing a capsule for now... I'll get around to it later.
Thanks to CRMcNeill for the templates. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16173 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | I've added a "generic" repulsor truck to the Wilderness Fighters entry. This serves as an approximation for what I'd like to see as the "HMMWV" of the Rebel Alliance. |
Got an image?
Quote: | I would also like to include an option for some trucks to be equipped with a sensor/communications jammer (at the expense of cargo capacity). |
This being the SWU, I'd think a truck-mounted unit is a bit too real-world-ish. My first thought would be some mobile droid units that providing remote jamming capability without the complication of home-on-jam systems finding their way back to the truck. A set of 3-4 droids could also provide overlapping coverage, along with regularly relocating to frustrate enemy attempts to localize them.
Quote: | I'm also thinking of adding a magna hitch that will allow one truck to tow another one in the event that it gets damaged from combat or a crash or the crew injured/slain or whatever. |
You'd likely also need a power connection in order to run the repulsorlifts on the damaged vehicle. That or some add-on repulsor units that can be attached to the damaged one to provide lift.
As a truck driver, I have occasionally wondered about a similar system, of having a cab unit with power to spare that could link up with a trailer unit that has its own onboard repulsors, but not the power supply to run them.
Quote: | In particular, if anyone sees issues with how the weapons work in actual play, let me know (I'm trying to use rules that fit into RAW and do not require the establishment of new mechanics). |
My thoughts on rules for heavier blaster weapons have been discussed in detail in my Blaster Weapons topic, and the Difficulty of carting around a disassembled E-Web is part of my impetus for the Encumbrance topic.
For a vehicle mounted version of the stats from that topic, I'd say that the Move & Fire Penalty on the Medium and Rotary would be ignored so long as the weapon was mounted. My stats for the Heavies (under the Blaster Artillery section at the bottom of the post) already includes rules for Vehicular Mounting.
EDIT: I did stats for my own version of the Auto-Launcher as part of the weapons load-out for the SpecForces Combat Skiff, but I neglected to include a rule to factor in the ballistic arc aspect. I'd probably just say that it negates up to 2D of protective cover, so long as it can fire over said cover.
Quote: | Sensors: what kinds of ranges and capabilities seem appropriate for "speeder scale" sensors? |
Depends what you're going for. When I did my stat re-writes, I generally gave most civilian vehicles a basic Passive Sensor, then military vehicles had a standard sensor suite (with Passive, Scan, Search and Focus modes) out to 4 kilometers, while other craft listed as scouts or noted for having better than normal sensors had ranges out to 6-8 kilometers or so.
Quote: | Also, is there a formula for converting a vehicle's max km/h speed into a "move" rating? |
The basic Move rating is in Meters/Round. Multiply that by 4 to get the All-Out Speed/Round, then multiply by 720 (12 5-second rounds in a minute x 60 minutes in an hour = 720 rounds in an hour) to get meters per hour, then divide by 1,000 to get kilometers per hour.
In reverse, multiply the vehicle's Max km/h speed by 1,000 to convert to meters, then divide by 2,880 to get the Base Move.
EDIT: Or, even simpler, just divide the Max km/h by 2.88...
So, for example, if a vehicle has a top speed of 300 km/h, that equals 300,000 meters per hour. 300,000 / 2,880 (or 300 / 2.88) = ~104.167.
Or there is a WEG conversion chart on pg. 165 of the 2E Rulebook. The numbers listed there are approximate, but they are close enough for government work.
Quote: | I didn't feel like writing a capsule for now... I'll get around to it later. |
Capsules are sometimes the hardest part of a stat...
Quote: | Thanks to CRMcNeill for the templates. |
Glad to be of service. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16173 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Also, with regard to your (A) Marksmanship skill in this post, I have a question.
In our past discussions on the (A) Skills, you've taken the position that an (A) Skill should have something special that requires rolling the actual skill. In this case, however, the maximum range is based just on the character's skill level, rather than an actual rolling of the skill dice (which is the route I went with my version of the (A) Marksmanship skill).
Was there a particular reason you went with a no-roll version of the (A) Skill? _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Mamatried Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 1829 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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COMBAT SEARCH & RESCUE
(Based on Air Force Pararescue)
DEXTERITY: 3D
Blaster:
Brawling Parry:
Dodge:
Grenades:
Melee Combat:
Melee Parry:
Run:
Thrown Weapons:
KNOWLEDGE: 3D+1
Alien Species:
Bureaucracy:
Cultures:
Intimidation:
Languages:
Planetary Systems:
Scholar-Xenobiology/Anathomy:
Streetwise:
Survival:
Tactics:
Value:
(s)Mecical Supplies:
Willpower:
MECHANICAL: 2D
Communications:
Repulsorlift Operation:
(s)Glider:
Sensors:
PERCEPTION: 3D
Bargain:
Command:
Hide:
Persuasion:
Search:
Sneak:
STRENGTH: 3D
Brawling:
Climbing/Jumping:
Lifting:
Stamina:
Swimming:
TECHNICAL: 3D+2
Computer Programming/Repair:
Demolitions:
Droid Programming:
Droid Repair:
First Aid:
(A)Combat Medicine:
Repulsorlift Repair:
Security:
Move:
Force Sensitive?:
Character Points:
Darkside Points:
Force Points:
Equipment:
(Chose to give the combat medicine advanced skill "only" first aid 4D as a requirement, this due to combat medicine in general is "cruder" than institution medicine) |
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Dredwulf60 Line Captain
Joined: 07 Jan 2016 Posts: 910
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Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | A sniper shoots far while generally aiming at the center of his target. A (combative) sharpshooter concerns himself with targeting specific, often small, features of the target's anatomy.
A sharpshooter is concerned with rapid (preferably instant) incapacitation, while a sniper is concered with shooting effectively from a place of concealment without specific regard for how long the target can still fight back (or escape). A sniper uses bigger ammo to make up for "less" precision, while a sharpshooter uses precise shot placement to take advantage of anatomical vulnerabilities that a sniper is not specifically concerned with. A sniper may attempt a "head shot," for example, while a sharpshooter will go for the brainstem (the area between the eyes and mouth, and preferably below the nose through the mouth which is mostly empty space and therefore does not interfere with the bullet's trajectory, etc. Snipers don't generally care about such nuance).
Snipers care about how FAR they can shoot. Sharpshooters care about how precisely they can shoot without regard to being able to "hit a man sized target" 800m or a mile and a half away or whatever. |
Comments about your views on Sharpshooter vs Sniper.
Caveat: I personally was never a sniper. I was a qualified marksman (Achieves 85% or more on a level 3 rifle shoot).
I did assist on the administration of a snipers course.
In my view Sniper and Sharpshooter are often used as synonyms by the general public and often in military circles. (definitely in the policing/ SWAT world)
But if there were to be a distinction, I believe that a sniper has all of the qualities of what you described as a sharpshooter and then with advanced fieldcraft, distance shooting and recce training added on.
Snipers are not concerned with merely long distance shots. Much of the stalking and shooting training/ assessments that I witnessed/ participated in had snipers moving to within 200m of their targets and taking their shots.
The targets used were just head silhouettes. I can see no circumstance where a sniper would not aspire to be the absolute pinnacle of being able to place a single shot wherever he wants to put it and achieve a kill if that was the desire.
Maybe not intended, but your explanation seems to imply that a sniper is merely concerned with a hit, where a ‘sharpshooter’ is somehow a surgeon with a rifle.
Perhaps the confusion of terms comes with the idea of designated marksmen.
Those guys in sections/ platoons (squads).
AFAIK these are merely the best shots in a given infantry squad provided with accurized rifles. They wouldn’t be shooting with scalpel-like precision at specific body parts. They would be shooting at the targets that are harder to hit for their fellows due to distance and cover and most likely shooting at center of visible mass like the rest.
I believe an advanced skill in marksmanship is unnecessary. Fine tuning shooting is always going to be minor increments at the highest levels. When you have a sniper taking into account air density, temperature fluctuations, humidity and the rotation of the planet in taking a shot, no advanced course is going to give a shooter the ability to split hairs.
Some snipers are just going to be better than others with prolonged training and experience.
Please forgive me if I have misunderstood any of your post or intention. |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | Also, with regard to your (A) Marksmanship skill in this post, I have a question.
In our past discussions on the (A) Skills, you've taken the position that an (A) Skill should have something special that requires rolling the actual skill. In this case, however, the maximum range is based just on the character's skill level, rather than an actual rolling of the skill dice (which is the route I went with my version of the (A) Marksmanship skill).
Was there a particular reason you went with a no-roll version of the (A) Skill? |
The idea is that the character "knows" how to shoot a certain distance. But he still has to roll to hit. Since he is rolling only the (A) skill (plus equipment and situational bonuses such as aiming or fire control), I didn't feel the need to extend the difficulty.
Thinking about it now, though, it may make more sense to adjust difficulties as distance increases. Regardless of skill, the farther the shot, the more variables affect it (in quantity, variety, and magnitude). So a 600m shot should be easier than an 800m shot when all variables have the same value at the start.
But since I tied max range to the advanced portion of the skill, it gives the skill value beyond opening the door to extending the range of the weapon.
In other words, there is a significant difference between a 5D Blaster, 3D (A) Sniper, vs a 7D Blaster, 1D (A) Sniper.
The former is essentially as good or better in every way with a rifle, but the latter is better at gunfighting in general with whatever is in his hands. |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Dredwulf60 wrote: | Naaman wrote: | A sniper shoots far while generally aiming at the center of his target. A (combative) sharpshooter concerns himself with targeting specific, often small, features of the target's anatomy.
A sharpshooter is concerned with rapid (preferably instant) incapacitation, while a sniper is concered with shooting effectively from a place of concealment without specific regard for how long the target can still fight back (or escape). A sniper uses bigger ammo to make up for "less" precision, while a sharpshooter uses precise shot placement to take advantage of anatomical vulnerabilities that a sniper is not specifically concerned with. A sniper may attempt a "head shot," for example, while a sharpshooter will go for the brainstem (the area between the eyes and mouth, and preferably below the nose through the mouth which is mostly empty space and therefore does not interfere with the bullet's trajectory, etc. Snipers don't generally care about such nuance).
Snipers care about how FAR they can shoot. Sharpshooters care about how precisely they can shoot without regard to being able to "hit a man sized target" 800m or a mile and a half away or whatever. |
Comments about your views on Sharpshooter vs Sniper.
Caveat: I personally was never a sniper. I was a qualified marksman (Achieves 85% or more on a level 3 rifle shoot).
I did assist on the administration of a snipers course.
In my view Sniper and Sharpshooter are often used as synonyms by the general public and often in military circles. (definitely in the policing/ SWAT world)
But if there were to be a distinction, I believe that a sniper has all of the qualities of what you described as a sharpshooter and then with advanced fieldcraft, distance shooting and recce training added on.
Snipers are not concerned with merely long distance shots. Much of the stalking and shooting training/ assessments that I witnessed/ participated in had snipers moving to within 200m of their targets and taking their shots.
The targets used were just head silhouettes. I can see no circumstance where a sniper would not aspire to be the absolute pinnacle of being able to place a single shot wherever he wants to put it and achieve a kill if that was the desire.
Maybe not intended, but your explanation seems to imply that a sniper is merely concerned with a hit, where a ‘sharpshooter’ is somehow a surgeon with a rifle.
Perhaps the confusion of terms comes with the idea of designated marksmen.
Those guys in sections/ platoons (squads).
AFAIK these are merely the best shots in a given infantry squad provided with accurized rifles. They wouldn’t be shooting with scalpel-like precision at specific body parts. They would be shooting at the targets that are harder to hit for their fellows due to distance and cover and most likely shooting at center of visible mass like the rest.
I believe an advanced skill in marksmanship is unnecessary. Fine tuning shooting is always going to be minor increments at the highest levels. When you have a sniper taking into account air density, temperature fluctuations, humidity and the rotation of the planet in taking a shot, no advanced course is going to give a shooter the ability to split hairs.
Some snipers are just going to be better than others with prolonged training and experience.
Please forgive me if I have misunderstood any of your post or intention. |
No worries. I'm not a sniper either. I happen to know a few. There may be a difference in Canadian and American doctrine.
Those snipers whom I have spoken to have invariably said that they never (and some emphasized "never") attempted a head shot unless that was "what presented."
In the US army, the MP marksman observer school has a very specific qualification course that is much different than the sniper course.
You'd mentioned a head sized target for snipers. In MP school, the target is a 1" thick "T" (representing the "T zone" of the face). Target is 100m away. The shooter must make a series of five shot groups to qualify as an MO. The first group is at the shooter's pace. The second group is done with a time standard (I forget how many seconds are allowed between shots). The third group must be fired on command. No misses are allowed. If a single miss is recorded, the shooter may attempt one more time from the beginning. A second miss disquifies the shooter.
I do believe that a sniper shoots precisely, but my understanding is that the precision is a byproduct of the skill required to shoot far.
One shot, one kill is the sniper mantra. So, taking nothing away from what a sniper is capable of, the sharpshooter's skill set focuses on the kind of precision required to (for example) make rescue shots, versus just kill a bad guy.
I will ask my buddy tomorrow what differences (if any) are noteworthy. He happens to have been a military sniper and a SWAT sniper. |
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Mamatried Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 1829 Location: Norway
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:24 am Post subject: |
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since we are taking about snipers vs sharpshooters......
there is a differnce like night and day, right?
If not then why do a governemnt "waste" time and rescourses training snipers, when everyone capable of hitting a target at distance is "according to tone here" a sniper?
The difference is HUGE, but their skill sets are maybe identical.
lets look at a Paratrooper.
he is not considered special forces, he is parachute specialized light infantry.
BUT we have light infantry that have parachute qualifications.....
both being light infatry with parachute insertion training, but they are in no way shape or form the same and do not in any way conduct the same missions.
WW2 Invasion of Normandy.
Airborne divisions.......they trained 3 divisions to make the jump.
3 divisions of airborne infantry, paratroopers.
they had 10ish or so divisions of infatry and giving these the same 1-3jump course they gave agents and commandos for "clandestine missions" would be cheaper and faster than creating a completely new unit....ergo they are not the same,
Same goes for star wars........a Blaster 7D makes you a good shot, but you be a total NON soldier, and a true amateur compared to the 5D+1 balster shooting infantryman.
Just becuse you can shoot at distance don't make you a snaiper, not even a marksman or sharpshooter, it makes you a shooter capable of hitting at a distance and nothing what so ever else. |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Mamatried wrote: | COMBAT SEARCH & RESCUE
(Based on Air Force Pararescue)
DEXTERITY: 3D
Blaster:
Brawling Parry:
Dodge:
Grenades:
Melee Combat:
Melee Parry:
Run:
Thrown Weapons:
KNOWLEDGE: 3D+1
Alien Species:
Bureaucracy:
Cultures:
Intimidation:
Languages:
Planetary Systems:
Scholar-Xenobiology/Anathomy:
Streetwise:
Survival:
Tactics:
Value:
(s)Mecical Supplies:
Willpower:
MECHANICAL: 2D
Communications:
Repulsorlift Operation:
(s)Glider:
Sensors:
PERCEPTION: 3D
Bargain:
Command:
Hide:
Persuasion:
Search:
Sneak:
STRENGTH: 3D
Brawling:
Climbing/Jumping:
Lifting:
Stamina:
Swimming:
TECHNICAL: 3D+2
Computer Programming/Repair:
Demolitions:
Droid Programming:
Droid Repair:
First Aid:
(A)Combat Medicine:
Repulsorlift Repair:
Security:
Move:
Force Sensitive?:
Character Points:
Darkside Points:
Force Points:
Equipment:
(Chose to give the combat medicine advanced skill "only" first aid 4D as a requirement, this due to combat medicine in general is "cruder" than institution medicine) |
Great write up.
Concerning the combat medicine skill, I wonder if it should just be a specialization of first aid?
FWIW, pararescumen are every bit as qualified as paramedocs (who are more qualified than EMTs). I feel like an EMT is essentially a "first aid" expert, while a paramedic (and by extension, pararescumen, who is essentially a combat firefighter/paramedic minus the actual fire fighting) would be "worthy" of having the actual medicine skill.
However, you may interpret what that skill encompasses differently than I do.
I imagine it covers things like the administration of drugs and diagnosing conditions immediately threatening to life, etc.
I would estimate that a paramedic is probably better at saving a life when seconds count than an MD. But that's just my perception based on mostly peripheral knowledge I have about emergency response compared to my experiences with (non-ER) doctors.
One other thing I've been trying to figure out is which skill/attribute would cover something like the jaws of life. It seems related to security, but it's also a kind of "brute force" way to gain access to someone trapped behind a jammed door (or whatever).
Maybe it should fall under security. What do you think? I can see a Haligan also falling into that skill. |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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In response to all issue of snipers vs sharpshooters, I asked my coworker the following question:
"Say you have two guys: one has only ever been a soldier, and the other has only ever been a cop. The soldier is an infantry sniper and the cop is a SWAT sniper. How would you characterize the difference in the way they approach shooting."
His answer included the following points:
Typical police sniper shoots an average of 75 meters. Military sniper is shooting 600-800 meters.
The cop focuses only on precision shots that are "high liability/high risk" shots. The soldier focuses on hitting "a target" from far away.
The cop is concerned with precision, instant incapacitation (shutting down the central nervlus system instantaneously by targeting very specific parts of the brain or spinal cord). The soldier is happy with any incapacitation, even if not immediate or permanent.
A soldier can do waht a cop can do (even though he is not trained to think like the cop, he is capable of the same kind of shot placement within the 100 meters that cops typically shoot). But a cop cannot do what a soldier can do because the ballistics that a sniper has to consider don't come into play within typical hostage rescue distances.
A soldier doesn't need to shoot as precisely because he typically uses a large enough round to do so much damage that surgical precision is not even necessary (300WM, 338 Lapua, 50BMG, etc., are all more powerful than a cop's 308, though soldiers also use 308 as well). The heavier rounds (used to increase range) have the side effect of transmitting more energy to the target within the same distance than a lighter round. |
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Mamatried Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 1829 Location: Norway
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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Jaws of life, could maybe be heavy machinery if that is a skill, or actually in many ways allow it covered as you said under security.
Since it is not a weapon, it makes little sense giveing it a weapon /dex based skill, however it could fall under mechanical and be some form of Pneumatic operation, or the like, maybe even count it in the category of walkers, as I am sure the star wars jaws of life can be a litte more high tech and maybe thus fit under mechanical, maybe even as a walker, or a seperate skill
I didn't think much about the medicine/first aid skill. it is masically why I made the advanced Combat medicine.
I would say his first aid covers the paramedic bit, with medicine being the er/doctor type, and then I gave it a thrird which is combat medicice, basically a meat ball surgery thing, but yes maybe it should be advanced, giving them the edge over the doctor when in the field, which they seems to have |
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Dredwulf60 Line Captain
Joined: 07 Jan 2016 Posts: 910
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | In response to all issue of snipers vs sharpshooters, I asked my coworker the following question:
"Say you have two guys: one has only ever been a soldier, and the other has only ever been a cop. The soldier is an infantry sniper and the cop is a SWAT sniper. How would you characterize the difference in the way they approach shooting."
His answer included the following points:
Typical police sniper shoots an average of 75 meters. Military sniper is shooting 600-800 meters.
The cop focuses only on precision shots that are "high liability/high risk" shots. The soldier focuses on hitting "a target" from far away.
The cop is concerned with precision, instant incapacitation (shutting down the central nervlus system instantaneously by targeting very specific parts of the brain or spinal cord). The soldier is happy with any incapacitation, even if not immediate or permanent.
A soldier can do waht a cop can do (even though he is not trained to think like the cop, he is capable of the same kind of shot placement within the 100 meters that cops typically shoot). But a cop cannot do what a soldier can do because the ballistics that a sniper has to consider don't come into play within typical hostage rescue distances.
A soldier doesn't need to shoot as precisely because he typically uses a large enough round to do so much damage that surgical precision is not even necessary (300WM, 338 Lapua, 50BMG, etc., are all more powerful than a cop's 308, though soldiers also use 308 as well). The heavier rounds (used to increase range) have the side effect of transmitting more energy to the target within the same distance than a lighter round. |
Sorry, I still don't track how that applies to having an advanced skill. Which one of the two you are describing, Military vs SWAT would have the advanced skill?
Based on what your friends says a military sniper can do what the SWAT sniper can do plus the fieldcraft. I agree; This is essentially what I said previously is it not?
In the military homebrew game I designed I had a similar dilemma. It was a D20 based game.
I had a skill for the weapon...ie Rifle.
And I also had a skill called Marksmanship.
The difference I made between them was the time it took to take full advantage of the marksmanship skill.
Any rifle user got to add their dexterity bonus to their hit roll up to the limit of their marksmanship skill.
So a rifleman could spend a number of rounds aiming ( which represents breath control, adjusting for range/ windage, movement of the target, rotational calcluations etc) and add to the hit roll, up to the limit of their marksmanship skill)
So you could have a low rifle skill guy with a high marksmanship who could make a very long or accurate shot given the time to prep for the shot, or you could have a guy with a very high rifle skill who could make the same shot in a single action, or you could have a guy who had a high degree of both who could make even longer accurate shots, beyond normal reasonable limits given a few moments of preparation.
(Having a spotter with the marksmanship skill allowed the pair to accumulate shooting bonus together on the single shot between them.)
I think you are going for something similar, but the language is muddying it for me I think. For me the sticking point is the idea that a sniper wouldn't be bothered with being able to precisely target if he wanted to. It may not be doctrine; I was always able to shoot center of mass and that's where we were supposed to. But I could also hit a patch anywhere on the figure 11 if if a competition was on the line. |
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Mamatried Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 1829 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:06 am Post subject: |
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In regards to snipers in particular, but also Special Forcces in general.
the D20 Moden suppliment called Blood&Guts is very good, it has sever custom feats that I think can be translated to D6.
This comes in addition to the various special forces write ups.
here are the two sniper spesific relevant feats @$$ described in the book ( Blood & Guts)
Marksman
You are skilled at long-distance accuracy with one
weapon.
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus (one ranged weapon),
Spot 5 Ranks.
Effect: You may use up to one-half your Spot skill
to offset attack penalties due to range with one ranged
weapon (effectively allowing you to ignore one penalty
for range per 4 Ranks of Spot). This feat may be taken
multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time the
feat is taken (requiring Weapon Focus to be taken again),
it applies to a different weapon.
Special: This feat grants you the Marksman badge
(see medals for more information on the effects of
badges and medals). The Marksman badge is awarded
each time you select this feat.
Sharpshooter
You are an expert shot with one weapon.
Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus 5+, Weapon Focus
(one ranged weapon).
Effect: You gain +1 to hit, and +2 damage with the
chosen weapon. This bonus stacks with any bonus
gained from the Weapon Focus feat or the Weapon
Specialization Soldier advanced class ability. This feat
may be taken more than once. Its effects do not stack.
Each time you take this feat it applies to a different
weapon for which you have already taken Weapon
Focus.
Special: This feat grants you the Sharpshooter badge
(see medals for more information on the effects of
badges and medals). The Sharpshooter badge is awarded
each time you select this feat.
https://rpggeek.com/rpgseries/5796/blood-guts |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Dredwulf60 wrote: | Naaman wrote: | In response to all issue of snipers vs sharpshooters, I asked my coworker the following question:
"Say you have two guys: one has only ever been a soldier, and the other has only ever been a cop. The soldier is an infantry sniper and the cop is a SWAT sniper. How would you characterize the difference in the way they approach shooting."
His answer included the following points:
Typical police sniper shoots an average of 75 meters. Military sniper is shooting 600-800 meters.
The cop focuses only on precision shots that are "high liability/high risk" shots. The soldier focuses on hitting "a target" from far away.
The cop is concerned with precision, instant incapacitation (shutting down the central nervlus system instantaneously by targeting very specific parts of the brain or spinal cord). The soldier is happy with any incapacitation, even if not immediate or permanent.
A soldier can do waht a cop can do (even though he is not trained to think like the cop, he is capable of the same kind of shot placement within the 100 meters that cops typically shoot). But a cop cannot do what a soldier can do because the ballistics that a sniper has to consider don't come into play within typical hostage rescue distances.
A soldier doesn't need to shoot as precisely because he typically uses a large enough round to do so much damage that surgical precision is not even necessary (300WM, 338 Lapua, 50BMG, etc., are all more powerful than a cop's 308, though soldiers also use 308 as well). The heavier rounds (used to increase range) have the side effect of transmitting more energy to the target within the same distance than a lighter round. |
Sorry, I still don't track how that applies to having an advanced skill. Which one of the two you are describing, Military vs SWAT would have the advanced skill?
Based on what your friends says a military sniper can do what the SWAT sniper can do plus the fieldcraft. I agree; This is essentially what I said previously is it not?
In the military homebrew game I designed I had a similar dilemma. It was a D20 based game.
I had a skill for the weapon...ie Rifle.
And I also had a skill called Marksmanship.
The difference I made between them was the time it took to take full advantage of the marksmanship skill.
Any rifle user got to add their dexterity bonus to their hit roll up to the limit of their marksmanship skill.
So a rifleman could spend a number of rounds aiming ( which represents breath control, adjusting for range/ windage, movement of the target, rotational calcluations etc) and add to the hit roll, up to the limit of their marksmanship skill)
So you could have a low rifle skill guy with a high marksmanship who could make a very long or accurate shot given the time to prep for the shot, or you could have a guy with a very high rifle skill who could make the same shot in a single action, or you could have a guy who had a high degree of both who could make even longer accurate shots, beyond normal reasonable limits given a few moments of preparation.
(Having a spotter with the marksmanship skill allowed the pair to accumulate shooting bonus together on the single shot between them.)
I think you are going for something similar, but the language is muddying it for me I think. For me the sticking point is the idea that a sniper wouldn't be bothered with being able to precisely target if he wanted to. It may not be doctrine; I was always able to shoot center of mass and that's where we were supposed to. But I could also hit a patch anywhere on the figure 11 if if a competition was on the line. |
TL/DR: I don't know if I need two separate skills anymore.
The difference, as I once understood it, was that police snipers are concerned with anatomy. There are only certain kinds of shots that they will take.
In the conversation, I asked about rescue shots and running targets and this little nugget came up:
He said the longest shot he knew of by a police sniper is 174 yards. It also happened to be a rescue shot (guy had a hostage as a human shield) and target was on the move with the hostage.
I then asked about shooting a target in a full sprint. He said it would have to be a body shot.
What I'm not certain of is that military snipers tend to take (i.e. may be trained not to take?) shots where friendlies are in physical contact with the target. I could see this being a thing for a JSOC unit, but I'm not sure whether other military snipers would take such a shot.
So, the basic difference that I'm trying to convey is the difference between being able to put a bullet exactly where you want it on paper (as a byproduct of the fundamentals mastery required to make long shots) and being able to put a bullet exactly where you want it when it must hit exactly where you want it to (or else you end up facing a manslaughter or negligent homicide charge). Naturally, this kind of shooting must take place at closer range. Doing this at 800 meters makes no sense because variables have some amount of randomizing effect on shot placement.
FWIW, the Los Angeles county sheriff's department uses Tango 51 rifles. Not sure if you've heard of Tactical Operations, but they make the Tango 51 and other sniper rifles. These rifles are capable of repeated groups of less than 1/10th MOA. Naturally, this takes a certain kind of shooter to achieve reliably. I believe the smallest group I've heard of out of a TacOps is 0.015." But the kinds of shooters who buy these rifles are already accomplished precision shooters and the group sizes tend to stay below 1/5th MOA in the "worst" of cases. I know that GA Precision (the manufacturer of Chris Kyle's favorite rifle, according to some reading I've done) guarantees 1/4 MOA at best on their rifles.
The outstanding question is whether a military sniper is able to consistently get groups that are sub-1/4 or sub 1/5 MOA. I believe it's reasonable that they could.
Then again, if you ask a military sniper what is the difference between sniper school and SFSC (the US Army's "Special Forces Sniper Course" formerly SOTIC), they will tell you that the SF course focuses more on "accuracy" (that is the answer that I got when I asked one SF soldier I met in Iraq).
Also, as I understand it, hostage rescue missions tend to be reserved for JSOC (Delta Force and other dudes that select their members from among the existing SOF troops in the military).
thedemonapostle is another member on this forum who was an infantry sniper and a police sniper, and he says that the police shooting is "easy" (and that's all he's ever said here about it). Though, I would expect his background as an infantry sniper to have already strengthened his fundamentals to the point that he can hit whatever he wants within 100m.
So the final question (for me) is this:
If you take a guy that has only ever been a cop, can you teach him ballistics and make him into an equally effective long distance shooter (military sniper) just as easily as you can teach an infantryman anatomy and make him into a hostage rescue hot-shot?
(I'm not concerned with field craft for the shooting skill: other skills already cover field craft, just like a SWAT sniper has other cop skills and knowledge that a sniper doesn't have. I'm only concerned with whether the shooting can be characterized the same way).
I suppose if we were to use d20 to try and explain via prestige classes (an infantry sniper prestige class vs a police sharpshooter prestige class), the military prerequisite would be the far shot feat, while the cop's prerequisite would be the precise shot feat.
Other feats that I might say differentiate the way the two shoot would be:
Cop:
Improved Precise Shot,
Coordinated Shot, Dead-Eye Shot
Infantry: Able Sniper, Distant Shot (with the help of a scope, of course); in addition, d20 RCR SW (in the Hero's Guide) has a prestige class called "sharpshooter" which characterizes what I believe a military sniper is (despite the class' name) by extending the range bonus of the far shot feat such that a weapon's range increment is increased up to 2.5 times as the character gains levels.
Note that the site from which I pulled the example feats also contain feats that affect sneak attack damage, which I think both the cop and the sniper might have (this would account for the skill overlap, IMO). |
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