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Mamatried
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 Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:06 pm Post subject: How many CPs was Luke awarded on his journey to Alderaan? |
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I know Luke is in no way a starting character, lets just get that out so we don't discuss that issue.
My point is seeing that luke is 19, he is a talented guy, born force sensitive and would reasonably have developed some of it to some very basic extent, like relying more on his "senses" than others.
regardless, if we look to a PC, with a progression rate at +1Pip and a 3-5CP average then I would say a character can never ever become to the level of a sorm commando.
even with the write up and the NPC commado having 17D+1 and not 18D attributes, he still have 100s of cps and skills that are well over both 2D and 3D above attribute.
7D in Blaster on a 3D dex, or a 6D survival etc.
Now when we then look to "children" and young teens, not really having done much in their life, yet they are at a level where a player character may reach after a long long, often years long caampaign with 3-5cp average.
I would argue this level of reward, 3-5 is perfectly fine for a very short scoped campaign, but not for anything long lasting.
If we look to a mere padawan of the phanotm menace time, we still have characters at level way beyond anything allowed for PCs.
Look to the young yedi template, 15D attributes 3D force +7D skills, and then get 3-5Cp advancemment in +1 pips.
then look to a written up padawan or even youngling, they have in general 18D attributes, and then force, mor powers, more than 7D skill dice to start with etc etc.
So I am thinking should the cp levels be changed to x10, meaning 30-50 cp rewards. and allow +1D progression in skills used, +2 and +1 progression in other skills.
A soldier gets to advance with +1D in his grenafde skill becuse he used his grnades so much in the adventure.
becuse he is a soldier he can advance his military skills with +2
but his civilan skills (non occupational) he advances at +1
so his language is at +2 becuse he is a military spec ops and language is part of his training. However he can only advance his cultures skill with +1 becuse this skill is not part of his training, and will count as a hobby.
between adventures he is told by the GM what skills he can advance by +1D
the rest he can advance by +2 and +1 as appropriate.
this will give a very rapid progression, but how else do you explain a 19yr old with 2000+CP woth of skills (like Luke, mara jade and others) even Ezra bridger from rebels, ot the characters form other games and comics, when statted they are in the 100, or 1000s cp range above any player character.
so should CP rewards be higher, if so how much higher, what is too much?
is there really a too much in a star wars setting with things like abeloth, and being cut in half and surviving. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Short answer: None. The flight to Alderaan was training time, where he spent CP he’d earned earlier on Tatooine.
And Luke is an anomaly, not a PC to be emulated. Frankly, the film characters need a new label that better describes their status above that of PCs, like “Iconic NPCs” or something.
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Short answer: None. The flight to Alderaan was training time, where he spent CP he’d earned earlier on Tatooine.
And Luke is an anomaly, not a PC to be emulated. Frankly, the film characters need a new label that better describes their status above that of PCs, like “Iconic NPCs” or something. |
I agree. now I can see his 19 years on tatoonie give him some cp, as well as his encounter and following the events.
now I really have no problem with that, but he was "only" force sensitive, meaning he did not have any force skills allocated.
This explains his 18D, any PC can optionally start the game with YES on force sensitve.
We could argue luke got 5CP maybe as much as 10 escaping tatooine.
he spent these we can argue on learning the force skills to 1D.
and corresponding powers.
So far I have no issue with Luke's progression compared to a PC.
he would have more than 7D in skills, he have been doing stuff for 19 years, again no problem.
then he trains, he learns his basic powers from old man ben.
they come to aldraan, or where it was. they are trapped in the tractor beam of the death star and he gets another 5cp from that, he then manages to escape to the yavin moon.
he is a skilled pilot and may have increased his skills by +1 several skills.
he is now on his way to a space battle, again he gets 5cp, destroys the death star while spendign a force point, getting one back and gaining one more.
he is now finised with ANH and have earned at most 20cp, having had time (week etc as the rules dictate) to incrase some skills by +1 mybe twice, at least giving him 5 cp minium left.
however, if we look to all this it seems he increses +1D, maybe more, he seems to get more CP than the normal 5CP average.
so what if we did this on a character we started out with 12D to skills, allowing hiem to be force sensitive and then given him 4-5 missions at 5cp each and compare.....or if we give 15-20 cp each and then compare, allowing some skills at least to be raised by +1D not just +1pip .
If so then yes I think the characters are plausable. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Short answer: None. The flight to Alderaan was training time, where he spent CP he’d earned earlier on Tatooine.
And Luke is an anomaly, not a PC to be emulated. Frankly, the film characters need a new label that better describes their status above that of PCs, like “Iconic NPCs” or something. |
I think that WEG sees it this way, but I don't think it's really the right way to look at it.
Are we to say that Han and Chewie are anomolies, as well? Padme? Obi-Wan? Qui-Gon?
Suppose it's the TotJ era, with no Luke and no Chosen One, etc? Plenty of NPCs from that era are more powerful than Luke or Vader.
And speaking of TotJ, have you seen what WEG passes off as a "Jedi Knight"? 1D-2D in force skills? 4D in Lightsaber? The Jedi Knights in TotJ are essentially a hair more advanced than starting characters.
If we are going to play Star Wars RPG for 30 years, you gotta cut loose every once in a while: try out some alternate realities where Luke is killed on Bespin or Tatooine and the PCs have to step in and become the New Hope. Kill off Obi Wan and let the PCs be the ones who protect Luke from the shadows. We don't need to safeguard Luke and other NPCs: PCs can/should be every bit as capable as the movie characters, since it's their story in what essentially becomes a shared universe.
Anyway, that's my $0.02. I know others feel differently. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | And Luke is an anomaly, not a PC to be emulated. Frankly, the film characters need a new label that better describes their status above that of PCs, like “Iconic NPCs” or something. |
I think that WEG sees it this way, but I don't think it's really the right way to look at it.
Are we to say that Han and Chewie are anomolies, as well? Padme? Obi-Wan? Qui-Gon?
Suppose it's the TotJ era, with no Luke and no Chosen One, etc? Plenty of NPCs from that era are more powerful than Luke or Vader.
And speaking of TotJ, have you seen what WEG passes off as a "Jedi Knight"? 1D-2D in force skills? 4D in Lightsaber? The Jedi Knights in TotJ are essentially a hair more advanced than starting characters.
If we are going to play Star Wars RPG for 30 years, you gotta cut loose every once in a while: try out some alternate realities where Luke is killed on Bespin or Tatooine and the PCs have to step in and become the New Hope. Kill off Obi Wan and let the PCs be the ones who protect Luke from the shadows. We don't need to safeguard Luke and other NPCs: PCs can/should be every bit as capable as the movie characters, since it's their story in what essentially becomes a shared universe. |
With respect to the game system's definition of starting PCs, yes the film characters are anomalies. Remember, this game was not designed to simulate the plot of the films for the main characters translated into game terms. The game was designed to allow players to play original characters in RPG adventures that take place in the same universe as the films. All attempts (official or unofficial) to stat out the film characters will fail in "accuracy" because the film characters' adventures are not RPG adventures - They exist in linearly plotted stories.
PCs are and should be the heroes of their story, but campaign scale is up to the group. It is possible for game groups to have fun and cocreate entertaining stories without playing adventures on the same scale as the adventures of the film. And even if they are doing things on the scale of destroying Death Stars, it is still possible to do so without altering the continuity of the films - It's a big galaxy. (I think just inserting PCs in the plot of the films sounds unoriginal and quite boring personally.) Of course there is nothing wrong with a group playing film caliber characters doing film plot types of things, and contradicting the metaplot, if they want to do. However I think that sooner or later they will likely run into the system breaking down at these higher levels of play, because film characters exist in scripted stories and the game system was not designed to simulate film plots.
| Quote: | | How many CPs was Luke awarded on his journey to Alderaan? |
No offense but this is a nonsensical question that doesn't have an answer because Luke is not a PC. NPCs do not earn CPs the way PCs do. NPCs have whatever # of CPs the GM feels they should have any given points they appear in the PCs' adventures.
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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I am not in any way advocating to play the movies, but to be allowed to play "as the movies" progressing as fast as the heroes, be at par with NPCs at least.
When I see an official or fan made write up of a character or a template or NPC it strikes me that some of these are hard to "become".
Now lets say we are a group wanting tp play jedi, we all come out with 15D attributes, and the force, being very much sub par to any non force user until we by only focues on the force compenzates a little.
even enhance attribute have a cap, and thus the related skills will too.
the characters then get 3-5cp each adventure on average.
lets look what happens if they wanted to be a jensaraai.
here we have the player character version of the "apprentice/padawan" and the "avarage one" lets compare them.
TYPICAL JENSAARAI APPRENTICE DEXTERITY 3D+2 Dodge 4D+2, lightsaber 5D+2, melee parry 4D+1, running 4D KNOWLEDGE 2D+2 Alien species 3D, cultures 3D, intimidation 3D+1, scholar: Jensaarai History 4D, streetwise: Susevfi 4D+1, surival 3D+2, willpower 3D+1 MECHANICAL 2D+1 Communications 3D PERCEPTION 3D+2 Hide 4D+2, search 4D, sneak 4D+2 STRENGTH 3D+2 Brawling 5D, stamina 4D+1 TECHNICAL 2D First aid 3D, lightsaber repair 4D Special Abilities: Force Skills: Control 3D, Sense 3D, Alter 2D Force Powers (these are the known powers a typical Jensaaria apprentice possesses and it is believed that they have access to other powers as well): Control Powers: Concentration, Control Pain, Enhance Attribute, Resist Stun Sense Powers: Danger Sense, Life Detection, Magnify Senses Alter Powers: Telekinesis Control and Sense: Lightsaber Combat Force Points: 2 Character Points: 8 Move: 10 Equipment: Lightsaber (4D), civilian clothes, comlink
To me the word typical does indicate that this is in no way a very strong or in any way special jensaraai apprentice. lets compare this to the PC's 7D skills, then find the differnce and calculate the cp difference.
JENSARAI APPRENTICE CHARACTER TEMPLATE Type: Jensaarai Apprentice DEXTERITY 3D+1 KNOWLEDGE 2D MECHANICAL 2D PERCEPTION 3D+1 STRENGTH 3D+1 TECHNI CAL 2D Special Abilities: Force Skills: Control 1 D, Sense 1D Force Powes: Control Powers: Concentration Sense Powers: Magnify Senses Move: 10 Force Sensitive: Yes Force Points: 2 Character Points: 5 Equipment: Lightsaber (4D), civilian clothes, comlink
+7D to skills.
What immidately strikes me is 2D worth of attributes to xCP cost.
the "typical apprentice" has 18D to attributes, the character template has 16D,
this alone is quite the cost, then comes the cost of the final force skill, then the cost of the other skills above the 7D.
Now I am not saying this is a character that would be reasonable as a starting character, I am saying the PC template at a rate of 3-5 Cp progression in +1 pips will not reasonably ever come to the above level, yet he is a "typical one".
most jedi wreite ups as well are way beyond what is within the scope of most player's, very few of us bother to keep a game running for years with the same characters, and many of us do find ourselves playing several capaigns in the span of a year.
I would like to go from padawan to a jedi knight like the write ups, but then again earning 1000+ cp and skill increase at +1 pip will in most cases shut the door.
Are the players that heroic if most if not all NPCs with any form of name are always at a few 100 cp higher, most if not all "fellow" jedi or Sith are at +1D to +3D higher attributes........how heroic is that?
So to me ALL or most NPCS need to me redone and given far less power or the cp rewards and the +1pip progression need be up by alot. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| It's clear that the stats for the main characters of the films are based on box office ticket sales rather than the typical CPs per adventure used by ordinary player characters. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | It's clear that the stats for the main characters of the films are based on box office ticket sales rather than the typical CPs per adventure used by ordinary player characters. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
With respect to the game system's definition of starting PCs, yes the film characters are anomalies. Remember, this game was not designed to simulate the plot of the films for the main characters translated into game terms. The game was designed to allow players to play original characters in RPG adventures that take place in the same universe as the films. All attempts (official or unofficial) to stat out the film characters will fail in "accuracy" because the film characters' adventures are not RPG adventures - They exist in linearly plotted stories.
PCs are and should be the heroes of their story, but campaign scale is up to the group. It is possible for game groups to have fun and cocreate entertaining stories without playing adventures on the same scale as the adventures of the film. And even if they are doing things on the scale of destroying Death Stars, it is still possible to do so without altering the continuity of the films - It's a big galaxy. (I think just inserting PCs in the plot of the films sounds unoriginal and quite boring personally.) Of course there is nothing wrong with a group playing film caliber characters doing film plot types of things, and contradicting the metaplot, if they want to do. However I think that sooner or later they will likely run into the system breaking down at these higher levels of play, because film characters exist in scripted stories and the game system was not designed to simulate film plots.
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Well said, Whill.
I think some of us see the film characters as "examples" of what the game designers think "heroic" looks like. If a payer knows going in that he is playing in the film era and that there is no chance of interacting in a meaningful way with the film's storyline, it messes with suspension of disbelief, since the GM has to artificially steer the characters away from successes that would alter the canon universe.
I was looking at the character templates the other day in 2R&E and the minor Jedi template makes reference to being so pathetic a Jedi that, despite the empire's Jedi-phobia, the PC character is so weak and inconsequential that he's not even worth the empire's time.
Kinda a sad way to handle it, IMHO.
It does, however, set a tone for what the designers think of PC power level (or even potential PC power level). |
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'd also toss in... Luke was probably banking a lot of CPs.
He didn't like where he was, so he wasn't trying to get better at it. He had few training opportunities, so he was mostly getting better at driving a speeder and shooting varmints... and he didn't even care too much about that, since he was bullseye-ing them easily.
So, a couple three years after reaching adulthood, he wanted to spend some CPs, but didn't have anywhere to do it. Then he met a dude who could teach him space wizardry, and he jumped at it, and dumped CPs by the bushel.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Not to mention that Luke would - at the very least - be a Force prodigy with reduced CP cost and training time requirements to improve his skills. WEG mentions this on pg. 56 of the 1E Rules Companion, but provides no details.
I've considered something like this in the past for use by PCs...Special Rule: Natural
At the cost of 1D of starting Attribute Dice, a character may select 1 skill for which he has a natural aptitude. When improving this skill, all CP costs and training times are reduced by 50%.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | Luke was probably banking a lot of CPs.
He didn't like where he was, so he wasn't trying to get better at it. He had few training opportunities, so he was mostly getting better at driving a speeder and shooting varmints... and he didn't even care too much about that, since he was bullseye-ing them easily.
So, a couple three years after reaching adulthood, he wanted to spend some CPs, but didn't have anywhere to do it. Then he met a dude who could teach him space wizardry, and he jumped at it, and dumped CPs by the bushel. |
Not that it has ever really mattered in my game, but this rings true to me. IF I was going to bother stating out Luke in ANH, he would be closer to a starting PC in attribute and skill dice, but he would have a buttload of CPs at his disposal, and a couple FPs. (Based on previous discussions here, I know that is an extremely unpopular opinion.) But again, Luke is an NPC, not a PC.
| Naaman wrote: | Well said, Whill.
I think some of us see the film characters as "examples" of what the game designers think "heroic" looks like. |
Yes, some may see it that way. I think Luke in ANH pretty much is a starting PC (in my game starting human PCs have 12D in skills instead of only 7D), except that he has a lot more CPs. But Luke is within sight of starting PCs.
Most of my players have been huge Star Wars nerds who venerate the film characters as beyond their capabilities. Believe it or not, there are plenty of players of this game that don't want to destroy Death Stars or the like. They thankfully don't have those epic expectations for things their PCs will do, especially at the start of a campaign. The majority of the players I've had are easier to satisfy. You work your way up to more and more epic things so that the climax of the campaign is getting into film scales of epicness. I haven't had any "adventure snobs" that can't have fun with starting level ability PCs, and I have no tolerance whatsoever for power gaming. I see starting PCs as somewhere in the middle of mooks and film heroes, and over the course of the campaign they get closer to (but never quite obtain) film hero stats. However my players also realize that in my game, no published stats are 'canon' so it is quite pointless to view published stats as goals or comparisons. I restat everything as I see fit. Players only know PC stats and really don't have any reason to know NPC stats expect for droids they own. So the comparison of their PCs to official film hero game stats is pointless in my game.
| Naaman wrote: | | If a payer knows going in that he is playing in the film era and that there is no chance of interacting in a meaningful way with the film's storyline, it messes with suspension of disbelief, since the GM has to artificially steer the characters away from successes that would alter the canon universe. |
I can see how some may feel this way, but I have a couple responses to this.
(1) It is possible to interact in a meaningful way with the metaplot without PCs having film hero stats. A creative GM can invent ways to weave them into the story. At age 9 my son played a Wookiee child with much less than starting level PC ability who was captured by Boskk and ended up in the Battle of Geonosis. Caught in the middle of a fight between a film Jedi Master and a clone against a bunch of battle droids, the PC was instrumental in helping his mother defeat General Grievous, leaving him mortally wounded on the droid factory conveyor belt, the origin story for how Grievous became a cyborg in my SWU. Nothing that happened in the entire adventure seemed any less plausible than anything that happened in a live action film.
(2) I've ran campaigns that diverge from film canon. PCs have destroyed the Millennium Falcon. They have killed Chewbacca, Boba, Jabba, and even Palpatine! But since the prequels, I have found that maintaining continuity with the metaplot in my game can be part of the fun for the whole group, including even intentional player metagaming by contriving realistic in-universe character motivations based on in-universe knowledge the characters might reasonable have to help maintain film continuity. Not that I include film continuity in every adventure, but on several occasions it has been fun for my players to interact with the metaplot while still making sure what we see in the films remains unaltered. So if the GM makes these things clear up front, in my experience players don't get huffy when they can't alter the metaplot.
| Naaman wrote: | I was looking at the character templates the other day in 2R&E and the minor Jedi template makes reference to being so pathetic a Jedi that, despite the empire's Jedi-phobia, the PC character is so weak and inconsequential that he's not even worth the empire's time.
Kinda a sad way to handle it, IMHO.
It does, however, set a tone for what the designers think of PC power level (or even potential PC power level). |
I think you've completely missed the point of this template's suggested character arc. The Minor Jedi PC starts the campaign thinking he is inconsequential, but that doesn't mean that he actually is or that he always will be. As time goes on, the scope of his adventures grows and his abilities improve. Then he begins to attract the attention of Imperial Jedi hunters. There's always this dynamic of self-worth and paranoia. There are in conflict at first, and as he begins to be hunted more his self-worth and paranoia grow together. At the heart of a high self-worth and paranoia are ego and fear, both of which must be defeated to become a Jedi.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:44 am Post subject: |
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No, I get it.
Characters start weak, and grow strong.
My post was more of an allusion to notions of artificially restricting PC access to things that the canon universe seem to imply are quintessential to certain character archetypes (Jedi apprentices have Jedi Masters, for example, and become Jedi Knights themselves as a step toward completion of the character arc).
They way things are worded in the books tends to lend itself to Star Wars as a "low adventure" setting rather than a "high adventure" one, that's all.
Your solutions seem quite favorable toward PCs being significant and special. By my estimation, even an adventure snob would have no complaints. |
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | No, I get it.
Characters start weak, and grow strong.
My post was more of an allusion to notions of artificially restricting PC access to things that the canon universe seem to imply are quintessential to certain character archetypes (Jedi apprentices have Jedi Masters, for example, and become Jedi Knights themselves as a step toward completion of the character arc).
They way things are worded in the books tends to lend itself to Star Wars as a "low adventure" setting rather than a "high adventure" one, that's all.
Your solutions seem quite favorable toward PCs being significant and special. By my estimation, even an adventure snob would have no complaints. |
Idk, I always found rpg rules to be for short....10-12 mission at the most campaigns, and that the rules are scoped for this.
As to a PC.....they start out weak, and though they do grow stronger, if we only go by RAW, they don't grow that much....they will with a 3-5 cp grow +1 to one, maybe 2 skills every now and then, this is until they get a staggering 4D in the skill.
Regardless how you teist it, a force user character with a minus to attrubutes, and with severe limitations on force, and with the force abilities being 100% useless upto a point this is usuaaly around 4D.
Now I can not see how a DEX 3D+2
and Blaster 5D+2
cahracter from start, can in any way be compared and considered equal to
dex 2D+2
Blaster 2D+2 BUT I have 1D to use my Enhance Ability.
As I see it the rules doen't allow the hero to be anything than wat was said abouve, somewhere between mook and hero, and when they have progressed enough they become "almost" heroes.......in a game where much of the selling point IS TO BE THE HERO the rules don't allow.
I can still in no way see how a +1 skill progression after adventure at a rate of 3-5 cp wil in any way make the HERO out of the character, when the rules themselves prevent this.
And yes the rules as written doen't allow players to "be as heroic" as the iconic characters, never in fact.
I have summed up and found that most "iconic and semi iconic" or even those with the amazing balance issue of a name.
They have 10s, 20s 30s even 150s and 200s more Dice than characters, and this is to skills alone.
I would say either the rules for character creation is wrong, or the game never meant for a character to even use the force.
without using fan write ups for more than showing the way they are done, and how they for the most part are balanced out according to raw. I would say that under the RAW, you can never be anything than a palying mook with name
this is becuse even if using a module the mere "npc" int here is at a 10-50Dice tootal advantage, if he is a force user is his also at a +XD attribues advantage.
Aka I have only ever seen (for the most part that is) player "jedi" with reduced attrubutes, not NPCs.......odd that heroes are systematically unheroic, and grow and get Almost heroic.......they are heroes?
Rhey are supposed to be better.........hence the 18D vs 12D, but then everyone they meet habe +1D or more to attributes, and about 10-50D more in skills, a player with +1 progression in the skill he can afford with his 3CP will NE VER get to a point of 50D worth of skills, not with a full 18D attributes, the rules simply doen't allow this. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | No, I get it.
Characters start weak, and grow strong. |
In my game PCs start about 70% stronger than RAW and advancement is probably a tad slower, but yes there still is growth in character ability and scope of the adventures over the course of a campaign.
| Naaman wrote: | | Your solutions seem quite favorable toward PCs being significant and special. By my estimation, even an adventure snob would have no complaints. |
Thanks. I try.
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