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Redesigning Humans
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find that most people want to play non-humans because their character concept doesn't necessarily require a certain species, and there's no mechanical reason not too.

If I'm playing a gunslinger, the galaxy is big enough that there's no reason NOT to be a Rodian, with their higher Dex maximum, and just be a slightly weird Rodian. What IS out of character for a twi'lek*, especially these days, with examples like Mission Vao or Hera Syndulla?

Some characters obviously aim for certain races... you kind of have to want to play a wookiee or ewok to choose one... but when you're talking about the mass of races that have relatively easily elided story factors to offset their bonuses... eh. Lots of folks will say "Why be humans, who are nothing special, when I could be pretty much the same character, plus these special abilities?"

*Perhaps a bad example, since R&E Twi'leks are one of the few races WORSE than humans, mechanically
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
Star Wars just has so many varied alien species and I have been cursed with getting an overwhelming number of players who do not want to play humans. I have ran adventures with all alien PCs, which limits some adventure possibilities. In my 1e days it wasn't much of a problems, but since the 90s players largely just don't want to play humans.

Well, maybe its cause you have so many alien options, people don't think they've got to be human?

That's just it. They don't have to be human. I've yet to go as far as implementing a Human PC quota for the player group. I want players to have a multitude of possibilities to realize their character concept as much as possible. The trend towards most of my players (in multiple playing groups) wanting to play aliens began in the mid-90s, but with the PT I experienced a sudden increase in players wanting to play aliens that were not on my "playable species" list. Truth be told, I don't like the alien species from the prequels as much as the classic movies.

Players don't like being told, "No, you can't play that species." So even though I would like more players to play humans, I actually increased my alien PC species list. The bigger the playable species list means more options and the less likely a player will want to play a species not on the list. So to address my preferences, I have a tier structure for playable species:

1. Humans
2. Top Tier Alien Species
3. Bottom Tier Alien Species
4. None of the above, including the creation of an original species.

So that is the order I want my players to consider their PC species. Please consider human first. If absolutely not, then consider the top tier alien species. If absolutely not, then consider the next tier. If absolutely not, then the player and I will discuss the character concept more deeply and work out a species we agree upon, including the creation of the species stats (or tweaking existing stats as needed).


MrNexx wrote:
*Perhaps a bad example, since R&E Twi'leks are one of the few races WORSE than humans, mechanically

Per RAW yes, but the species fluff has changed a lot since the days of WEG. Twi'leks used to be from a primitive planet, but the prequels made a Twi'lek senator, which means his species and planet must be important enough to have a Twi'lek represent an entire sector in the Galactic Republic. The EU made them even more important by having that Twi'lek senator be one of the most powerful senators in the galaxy. Even if the two concepts are reconciled with the explanation that the Twi'lek planet got ravaged by war in the Clone Wars or rise of the Empire as in my SWU, the RAW Twi'lek stats are really insufficient to portray a once advanced and important species, so I changed them and made them better game mechanically.

MrNexx wrote:
I find that most people want to play non-humans because their character concept doesn't necessarily require a certain species, and there's no mechanical reason not too.

If I'm playing a gunslinger, the galaxy is big enough that there's no reason NOT to be a Rodian, with their higher Dex maximum, and just be a slightly weird Rodian. What IS out of character for a twi'lek*, especially these days, with examples like Mission Vao or Hera Syndulla?

Some characters obviously aim for certain races... you kind of have to want to play a wookiee or ewok to choose one... but when you're talking about the mass of races that have relatively easily elided story factors to offset their bonuses... eh. Lots of folks will say "Why be humans, who are nothing special, when I could be pretty much the same character, plus these special abilities?"

Exactly why I redesigned Humans. It better represents the fluff as far as their above average abilities and versatility, and it makes Humans more attractive to players (more skill dice that can be used for any skills means more fine tuning of their character concept). In my game, Humans are more game mechanically balanced with aliens, but I also play up the story factor of aliens experiencing more species discrimination in a human supremacist Empire. With the story factor on top of the improved stats, humans actually work out a little better than aliens in my game.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I almost always play humans or near humans.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:01 am    Post subject: Re: Redesigning Humans Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
That is not a contradiction. You are conflating species typical stats with species maximums, and misunderstanding what was being said about humans.
Not really. Though we seem to disagree that species superiority is based solely on the average regardless of the extremes. And of course, I haven't noticed all the contradictory fluff. But I'll just bow out since it is clear that disagreement with the premise is unwelcome.
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RyanDarkstar
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
In my game, Humans are more game mechanically balanced with aliens, but I also play up the story factor of aliens experiencing more species discrimination in a human supremacist Empire. With the story factor on top of the improved stats, humans actually work out a little better than aliens in my game.


I always mention the Empire's discrimination towards aliens at character creation and stress the difficulties not having a human in the mix will bring. Typically falls on deaf ears, though, and then they complain later when they get hassled.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Exactly why I redesigned Humans. It better represents the fluff as far as their above average abilities and versatility, and it makes Humans more attractive to players (more skill dice that can be used for any skills means more fine tuning of their character concept). In my game, Humans are more game mechanically balanced with aliens, but I also play up the story factor of aliens experiencing more species discrimination in a human supremacist Empire. With the story factor on top of the improved stats, humans actually work out a little better than aliens in my game.


Of course, that also assumes one's playing in a Empire-era game and not, say, the Old Republic era.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanDarkstar wrote:
Whill wrote:
In my game, Humans are more game mechanically balanced with aliens, but I also play up the story factor of aliens experiencing more species discrimination in a human supremacist Empire. With the story factor on top of the improved stats, humans actually work out a little better than aliens in my game.


I always mention the Empire's discrimination towards aliens at character creation and stress the difficulties not having a human in the mix will bring. Typically falls on deaf ears, though, and then they complain later when they get hassled.




According to imperial law ALL sapient species within the borders are impiral citizens and have equal rights and all that......

that is the law, it is not always followed, but that was in fact the law, by imperial law there were no distinction of aliens and humans, as long as both species were considered sentient.

The Empire dod not consider wookies sentient, ergo they could legally use them as slaves etc.......a Zabrak on the other hand, or a rodian would both under imperial law be sentient andthus have exactly the same rights as humans
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:55 am    Post subject: Re: Redesigning Humans Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Whill wrote:
That is not a contradiction. You are conflating species typical stats with species maximums, and misunderstanding what was being said about humans.
Not really. Though we seem to disagree that species superiority is based solely on the average regardless of the extremes.

No, I wasn't making any statements about the basis of species superiority. I was merely stating that WEG based the game system on the basis of humans being the galactic average, while humans are portrayed in fluff as better than galactic average. My redesign of human stats in the game is based on that. You brought up pod racing which deals more with species maximums than averages. Humans being above average does not in any way indicate that there aren't species superior to humans in pod racing or that humans still can't be above average, so the pod racing in TPM does nothing to the EU's shift to humans being above galactic average. And again, we are talking only +1 pip better in each attribute, which seems like nothing until you add up six of them and get 14D typical humans, and even then is really only a problem for GMs concerned about PC game balance and dogmatically adhere to the nonobligatory +6D rule for creating PCs.

Bren wrote:
And of course, I haven't noticed all the contradictory fluff. But I'll just bow out since it is clear that disagreement with the premise is unwelcome.

I think you are referring to my comment about your seeming disagreement with the concept of improving human stats in the game, the very premise of this thread. It's not unwelcome but rather me just acknowledging your opinions that human stats should remain unaltered from RAW and that GMs should not worry about PCs of different species being game balanced. Duly noted, but this thread is naturally for those of us who want to redesign humans.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Of course, that also assumes one's playing in a Empire-era game and not, say, the Old Republic era.

Yes. I ran my only two non-Imperial era games in the past recent years. They were one-shots. I only run Imperial era campaigns. I know other people here may run other eras, but the Empire is the primary setting in this game.

RyanDarkstar wrote:
I always mention the Empire's discrimination towards aliens at character creation and stress the difficulties not having a human in the mix will bring. Typically falls on deaf ears, though, and then they complain later when they get hassled.

They don't complain too much for me. I make that emphatically clear in Tier 1 for considering playing a human. If they still choose to play an alien, their character will experience human supremacy at some point or another and it is just a part of playing an alien. Many players embrace it and make it an inherent part of their character's background or personality.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:43 am    Post subject: Re: Redesigning Humans Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Duly noted, but this thread is naturally for those of us who want to redesign humans.


This is one of those things that I tend to forget from time to time. It takes mental effort for me to remember that a thread is not a "request from the community" to change an official rule. Embarassed

Like with that Mamatried's thread on non-FS folks deflecting blasters... in my own SWU, only Jedi can do it (or those FS taught how to do it by Jedi). Other force traditions have their things. Blaster deflection is a Jedi thing. But, I've tried to be helpful in the thread nonetheless.
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