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Use of the Force in combat - back then and now
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
* While I think the Jedi should get a DSP (or if one uses fractional points, a Dark Side Pip), I think that in the case of "oops I accidentally pushed them too hard and killed them" a repentant Jedi should have a pretty easy path to atonement.


IMO jedi are supposed to be held to a higher standard, so ignorance wouldn't be an excuse.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we talking about the force or foce philosopies?

jedi are a force philosophy....to them certain acts and even ev\motions are wrong, drak as they call them.

Now with other philosophies the line between what is deemed to be dark and light, or right and wrong if you will is less "black and white" than the jedi.

So while a jedi is the opposite of a sith, that is what they are.........nothing else.
jedi are not the force, they like many other are "of the force".


Now if merely using the force to destroy, this includes inflicting pain, anything that is not creating, ot simply observing then are the jedi really "light" do they only act in a way to allow the force to create? do a jedi not use the force to further damage and to inflict greater damage with lightsabers.

I think is we look at the force rather then the various force philososphies then I think we can argue that the force IS, and that it is both destructive and crative, and thebecuse the force is both, both needs to be recognised, and death even destruction is natural and not in any way evil or dark, it is the creation of the "new" the "to come".

So I will argue that the only way to gain dark side points is to be deliberately dark, commit evil deeds, not murder or mayhem alone, if this is not evil.

In fact in many ways how many of us see mace windu is a good example, or plo koon, both having a strong connection to the force's desrcutive side, though while making choises both conscious and sub conscoius about how to use this power.

With mace this was a controllable battle frenzy, where he channeled the opponent's agression and "hatred" and used this "dark side energy" to fuel his fighting style.

Plo and his force lightning, a differnt color and maybe less strong that that of the dark lord of darths, mr raisn face sheev...
or what about other abilites, like morichro, a power defineately labeled "light side" yet one that can quite easily kill.
now while killing will give tou a darkside point and fair enough, the power can still be used to basically "torture" someone with their altering metabilism and the like, though the spesifics state that darkside points are given when you kill with the power.

I think what is not written is often just as important than what is written.

And this is the essence in the dark/light side thinking, what is written and what is not written, what is not written is still a part of the narrative.

if we look to religions, and this is in essence what the sith and jedi as well as others are, then we see that when it comes to religious "rules" tennants, then it just as important what is NOT written as what is written.

An example can be a ban on eating certain types of foods, let say the faithful can only eat food that is prepared and then blessed with a certain rital, but it state tat this concerns meat.
To the faithful this mean he can eat all the food, including "meat" that his religion or in the case of star wars and light and dark, what his philosophy tells him he can eat and do.

I would argue that while the mere use of certain force powers for a religious jedi will give a darkside point, this is more psychological than anything, I would equally argue other non jedi can use the force in ways the jedi will deep directly dark, and suffer no darkside points from it.....

again it all comes down to life and death, or if we take this further to RPGs we can talk about Necromancy, and where it is ingherently evil or not.....and the arguments are good for both sides.

So to me unless you are a bad guy, you can get away with injuring, killing and the like.
After all in a very combat based RPG, it makes no sense to have a character that can only act in self defense or defense of others, and barely so, if he injures, or kills he then falls to the darkside with the right or "wrong" black/white GM.......that to me makes little sense, jedi are warriors, they kill they maim, they inflict pain and they are good at it, and they should not suffer much DSPsd, or maybe the cap shpuld be above the mere 6.

now with a cap of 12 or maybe even a brand new wya of earning DSPs and removing them, then yes I could agree on a mre black and white thing, but I can ot see an order of legendary warriors that somehow are beyond redemtion once they do some "warrioring"
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TheEvilDM
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Potroclo wrote:
Back in the day our GM would give dark side points to any jedi that killed, period. Be it using the force or not. Sole exception was in a fight against a dark side user that's beyond salvation. Inducing injuries in any way when not in self defense or defense of others could get you dark side points too. That made playing jedi rather... interesting.


Really? a darkside point for killing? I can see if you initiated the attack and didn't let up when the other party surrendered or something, but if someone is attacking and the Jedi is just defending himself and happens to land a blow that kills them, it falls under, "whoops" to me. I mean we all have our own play styles and no style is the right or wrong way, but man that's harsh. Jedi living in fear lol
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Potroclo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheEvilDM wrote:
Jedi living in fear lol


Yup, I believe that was the intention behind the severity of our GM back then. It actually made it all the more special when the only jedi player ignited his lightsaber for the first time mid-campaign, in a battle against non-sentient cyborgs.
I guess it depends on what kind of game you're running. If it's clone wars era it makes no sense to be so strict. But for classic era or any timeline where jedi are persecuted, it forces the players to rely on each other and think their way through every challenge, instead of just have the jedi in the party use the Force much as a cheat code in a videogame. The GM's harshness was a patch (admittedly not a very good one) to compensate the fact jedi tend to become overpowered in longer campaigns.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheEvilDM wrote:
Potroclo wrote:
Back in the day our GM would give dark side points to any jedi that killed, period. Be it using the force or not. Sole exception was in a fight against a dark side user that's beyond salvation. Inducing injuries in any way when not in self defense or defense of others could get you dark side points too. That made playing jedi rather... interesting.


Really? a darkside point for killing? I can see if you initiated the attack and didn't let up when the other party surrendered or something, but if someone is attacking and the Jedi is just defending himself and happens to land a blow that kills them, it falls under, "whoops" to me. I mean we all have our own play styles and no style is the right or wrong way, but man that's harsh. Jedi living in fear lol


Same. Just killing, no. Killing gratuitiously or needlessly (they're stunned/surrendered).. YES.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
IMO jedi are supposed to be held to a higher standard, so ignorance wouldn't be an excuse.
Omniscience is a much higher standard.

But how would the Jedi PC know what everyone else is going to do after the Jedi restrains the axe wielding murderer from killing his next victim? What actions can the Jedi take to ensure no harm befalls the villain from some over zealous or vengeful third party who decides to act after the Jedi has restrained the villain? And how can the Jedi perform those actions in time to do something to try to protect anyone the villain is about to harm. It seems like often times the Jedi will end up damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
For a take on this, read What's So Bad About The Dark Side? from Polyhedron #108.
That's more or less how we've played Dark Side Points. I don't know if that's what the designers were thinking, but it seems like a good justification for the WEG system for getting Dark Side Points. Thanks for sharing.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
For a take on this, read What's So Bad About The Dark Side? from Polyhedron #108.
That's more or less how we've played Dark Side Points. I don't know if that's what the designers were thinking, but it seems like a good justification for the WEG system for getting Dark Side Points. Thanks for sharing.

No problem. This was actually a building block for my Willpower rule, whereby a character could use things like TK Kill or Telekinesis to inflict Stun damage on a successful Willpower roll. Theoretically, it could also be applied to Force Lightning, but I've never liked the various attempts at a "Light-Side Force Lightning." Some powers should just stay dark.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
Are we talking about the force or foce philosopies?
I'm talking about the Force. When I run Star Wars I adhere pretty closely to WEG's point of view. In that view, the Force has an absolute system of morality, of the light and the dark. You don't get a Dark Side Point because you think you did something bad or because your master thinks you did something wrong or because everyone back at the Jedi temple would think you did something wrong. You get a DSP because you did something that opens you up to the Dark Side of the Force.

Quote:
Now with other philosophies the line between what is deemed to be dark and light, or right and wrong if you will is less "black and white" than the jedi.
What people think is right or wrong is irrelevant. It's an absolutist system. Actions either are get you a DSP or they don't get you a DSP. And using or opening yourself up to the Dark Side is always wrong - wrong in the sense that your character is likely to get a DSP and you are one step closer to losing control of that character to the Dark Side.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Some powers should just stay dark.
Agreed.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
IMO jedi are supposed to be held to a higher standard, so ignorance wouldn't be an excuse.
Omniscience is a much higher standard.

But how would the Jedi PC know what everyone else is going to do after the Jedi restrains the axe wielding murderer from killing his next victim? What actions can the Jedi take to ensure no harm befalls the villain from some over zealous or vengeful third party who decides to act after the Jedi has restrained the villain? And how can the Jedi perform those actions in time to do something to try to protect anyone the villain is about to harm. It seems like often times the Jedi will end up damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.


He should speak to them ahead of time. "HEY GUYS, if i restrain any enemies with my Telekinesis, DO NOT ATTACK THEM!"..
Similar to how can Paladins 'know his party will kill someone after He's gotten them to surrender."
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
He should speak to them ahead of time. "HEY GUYS, if i restrain any enemies with my Telekinesis, DO NOT ATTACK THEM!"..
Similar to how can Paladins 'know his party will kill someone after He's gotten them to surrender."
OK. And what if, despite having that talk, one or more of his companions change their mind later or are overcome by an angry, fearful, or vengeful impulse and kill the restrained terrorist anyway?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then he still gets dingged. Just like a paladin character in an adnd game, who tells his allies not do do x, cause it would be evil, BUT THEY STILL DO IT anyway.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for clarifying. That seems an overly harsh response to me. But then it isn't a problem I've ever seen occur in any Star Wars games I've been in or have run. If it's something you are seeing or have seen in play I can more readily see why you might feel such a response was necessary and appropriate.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In games i've ran, i've seen it done twice, both by players who DID have their jedi turn to the dark side (they used TK to hold a high melee/brawl parry enemy, then let their comrade wail on them).. Most others just use it to hold someone immobile, till the battle's over, then give them a chance to surrender..
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