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MC-13v2 Freighter
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:28 am    Post subject: MC-13v2 Reply with quote

I reread all your posts and considered the ACH/jettison suggestions...

CRMcNeill wrote:
Since the droid brains running the system know where the various lots of cargo are located in the bay, moving specific portions of cargo to the loading bay and ejecting them into space is functionally no different than a normal unloading process.

After all, any ship can manually dump cargo; it just requires that the crew or droids move the cargo to the airlock and flush it out. But what's described in GG6 is an automated system that functions either on a dead-man switch or a command from the ship's computer. And that's a lot of utility for a system that only takes up 1 metric ton and costs 1,000 credits (per GG6).

Viewed in tandem with the Handling system, I see the Jettison system as either an after-market upgrade for ships that don't have a Handling system, or an upgrade to smuggling compartments

I see where you are coming from a little better now. I had completely forgotten about the "Automatic Cargo Jettison" on GG6 2e p.42 so I reread it. That is decidedly not canon in my SWU. That's way too much utility for a jettison feature for my game (or that I will put my name on when presenting to others). That's downright silly. Only a 1000 credits to create a new hole in your ship that can eject cargo? And it is automatic? Here is a recap of part of the evolution of the cargo holds on this ship:

1 - When I thought my deckplan was about done, I did the math and realized that cargo holds are too big so I had to think of something I could add to my deckplan to take up space.
2 - The first thing I thought of was dedicated cargo airlocks around the existing cargo lifts. The ship has an aquatic mode so it could retrieve underwater cargo from an aquatic civilization and pump out the water, or flood the airlock and deliver cargo underwater. But the cargo airlocks also work for vacuum transitions for the rare cases that would ever be needed.
3 - Then as an afterthought to that, I thought the cargo lifts could also move out of the way and cargo in the cargo airlocks can be jettisoned out of the ship. I don't want it automatic. It is an emergency and ship hands have to manually activate the jettison when the cargo to be jettisoned is in position. This isn't just a plain cargo dump. In the tube from the cargo airlocks to the outer hull of the ship, there is a mechanism that propels the cargo out of the ship. That's what makes it a jettison.
4 - You suggested your ACH, I read it and thought it was perfect for this ship to enhance cargo logistics for a ship with so much cargo capacity. I explained that I can't see the overhead arm/crane/grapple system in the ceiling of the airlocks themselves, so there is a system in the ceilings of each of the four holds (ran by two droid brains, one starboard and one port). It can reach into the airlocks to move cargo, but not down the lift shaft. To jettison cargo now, the only difference is that the ACH can move cargo into position to be jettisoned, but the jettison feature still needs activated manually by someone the ship. The jettison is still a feature of the cargo airlocks and can be activated by the pilot station on the bridge, the security/environment office, or on any of the airlock controls outside the airlock.

If cargo can fit into an airlock, sure it can be plain dumped on any ship. But in my SWU, I see cargo jettison in freighters as a rare technical feature of restricted legality (perhaps it is only approved for ships with a cargo capacity of a certain large amount and requires an annual license renewal). So after careful consideration, I do not want the emergency jettison function controlled by a 5th degree droid, but that droid-brain can still help with the process by moving cargo into position, which it does as it is commanded to do.

However these posts are all here so if you or anyone wants to use this ship but alter the ACH and cargo jettison fluff as they see fit, they are welcome to.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your description reminds me of the Force Tube from Heir to the Empire, where the Wild Karrde projected a tube of atmosphere across to Luke’s X-Wing. I’ve theorized elsewhere that such a device would have uses beyond search & rescue, such as underway replenishment, but also deep space cargo transfer between ships (usually illicit in nature). It could also be used to eject cargo overboard.

Of course, a simple method of ejecting cargo would also be possible with a standard airlock; depressurize, then fractionally depressurization with an inert waste gas, shut off the artificial gravity and open the hatch. The pressure from the escaping gas will push the cargo out. Close the hatch, rinse, repeat.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Of course, a simple method of ejecting cargo would also be possible with a standard airlock; depressurize, then fractionally depressurization with an inert waste gas, shut off the artificial gravity and open the hatch. The pressure from the escaping gas will push the cargo out. Close the hatch, rinse, repeat.

I agree. The only difference with the dedicated "jettison" is that an additional mechanism launches it out of the ship with greater force than just atmospheric pressure on its own. The "jettison" isn't the main feature here. The main feature is a dedicated cargo airlock, which none of the ships in Stock Ships have. The so-called "jettison" just seemed like a natural extension of the cargo airlock technology, justifying the cargo airlock a bit more.

This is the stock version of the modified ship in my campaign, which is a smuggler ship. In-universe, I think a legal "jettison" feature of the cargo airlock would be a selling point for smugglers. Not that the feature could ever be overtly marketed as such, but smugglers are customers too. This ship has a lot of room to install hidden compartments and other modifications. And there is lot of room for non-illicit cargos as a cover for the smuggling operations. This ship is a smugglers' and rebels' dream ship.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Your description reminds me of the Force Tube from Heir to the Empire, where the Wild Karrde projected a tube of atmosphere across to Luke’s X-Wing. I’ve theorized elsewhere that such a device would have uses beyond search & rescue, such as underway replenishment, but also deep space cargo transfer between ships (usually illicit in nature). It could also be used to eject cargo overboard.

I believe that force field tube may have been your inspiration for how Han had atmosphere inside the space slug in TESB - A force field was projected from the Falcon, then atmosphere was pumped from the ship into the area inside the force field to pressurize it to the point of human and Wookiee survival, only needing gas masks to breath. It seems like a natural application of shield technology. I like that.

However for the MC-13v2 I was referring to an actual metal hollow tube inside the ship that the circular cargo lift lowers through to beyond the bottom of the ship, and the path ejected cargo follows out of the ship.

There is a 6-person escape pod underneath the common room. Now that can be sitting room only (so you may have to duck going through it to sit down). So there doesn't have to be a full deck height under the main deck level of the ship, but it still needs enough space that this ship sits taller than the Falcon does. That means that even if the outer hull is higher under the cargo airlock than in the middle of the ship, there still would be a some inner tube that the cargo follows. Not a deep tube, but enough to have some mechanism in there to help launch the cargo being jettisoned.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I believe that force field tube may have been your inspiration for how Han had atmosphere inside the space slug in TESB - A force field was projected from the Falcon, then atmosphere was pumped from the ship into the area inside the force field to pressurize it to the point of human and Wookiee survival, only needing gas masks to breath. It seems like a natural application of shield technology. I like that.

I don't recall making that connection at the time, but in retrospect, it does make sense. I had thought that the Force Cylinder in HttE included the capability of pushing or pulling an object/person along the cylinder, but I needed to get home and check my copy of HttE to make sure. Unfortunately, there is no such effect noted; it appears Luke pushes off in the direction of the Wild Karrde and simply drifts along the cylinder to their airlock...

Which seems rather silly from a safety standpoint, as it requires the "jumper" to get their angle just right or go careening off into space. I picture something like this having a minimal tractor or gravitic effect within the Force Cylinder, so that objects inside can be pushed or pulled along the tube, either to/from another ship, or simply pushed away.

On a related note, I remembered this discussion, where using tractor beams and force fields under water was discussed, specifically, the use of tractor beams to protect ships from pressurization at great depths.

If it were up to me, I'd fold the Jettison system in with a Force Cylinder system that includes a motive field projector. The Force Cylinder would be useful both in space and underwater, and can be officially designated as search & rescue equipment, but would be scrutinized by the Empire because of its utility with regard to ejecting cargo or making deep space cargo transfers between ships (smuggling). That way, what you're describing as a tube that ejects the cargo could be the Force Cylinder system giving it a "push."
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact, the way the Thrawn Trilogy comics pictured the Force Cylinder (in the novel, there was no visible component), it reminds me of the "beam of light" from alien abduction stories, so if the Force Cylinder has an integrated tractor beam capability, it could also be used as the energy equivalent of a "rescue hoist", so that personnel could be deployed and recovered in areas where there aren't any viable landing spots...
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I don't recall making that connection at the time, but in retrospect, it does make sense. I had thought that the Force Cylinder in HttE included the capability of pushing or pulling an object/person along the cylinder, but I needed to get home and check my copy of HttE to make sure. Unfortunately, there is no such effect noted; it appears Luke pushes off in the direction of the Wild Karrde and simply drifts along the cylinder to their airlock...

Which seems rather silly from a safety standpoint, as it requires the "jumper" to get their angle just right or go careening off into space. I picture something like this having a minimal tractor or gravitic effect within the Force Cylinder, so that objects inside can be pushed or pulled along the tube, either to/from another ship, or simply pushed away.

On a related note, I remembered this discussion, where using tractor beams and force fields under water was discussed, specifically, the use of tractor beams to protect ships from pressurization at great depths.

If it were up to me, I'd fold the Jettison system in with a Force Cylinder system that includes a motive field projector. The Force Cylinder would be useful both in space and underwater, and can be officially designated as search & rescue equipment, but would be scrutinized by the Empire because of its utility with regard to ejecting cargo or making deep space cargo transfers between ships (smuggling). That way, what you're describing as a tube that ejects the cargo could be the Force Cylinder system giving it a "push."
CRMcNeill wrote:
In fact, the way the Thrawn Trilogy comics pictured the Force Cylinder (in the novel, there was no visible component), it reminds me of the "beam of light" from alien abduction stories, so if the Force Cylinder has an integrated tractor beam capability, it could also be used as the energy equivalent of a "rescue hoist", so that personnel could be deployed and recovered in areas where there aren't any viable landing spots...

This is cool stuff, but this stock ship already has a lot of unusual features and shouldn't have everything. I had considered putting a regular tractor beam on this ship, but I decided I will probably save that for the modified ship, which will definitely have a torpedo launcher and several other features the stock ship doesn't have.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always assumed that most SW ships are equipped with a very short-ranged (as in, a Space range of 1SU or less, and a Strength equal to the ship's Hull dice) tractor system to facilitate docking and cargo handling, with the main advantage of the "weaponized" tractor beam being extended range.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I've always assumed that most SW ships are equipped with a very short-ranged (as in, a Space range of 1SU or less, and a Strength equal to the ship's Hull dice) tractor system to facilitate docking and cargo handling, with the main advantage of the "weaponized" tractor beam being extended range.

That seems reasonable.


EDIT: I implemented a bunch of revisions cheshire suggested.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:50 am    Post subject: MC-13v2 Reply with quote

Just for the heck of it I ran the MC-13v2 through the Complete Starship Pricing System. My ship has Sensors identical to the DeepWater except one more pip in Focus. Both ships are over the max "sensor increments" but I just kept it and priced it accordingly since this ship was not made with this system and I think the max is too low.

I came up with a price of approximately 176,700 credits. That does not include any of the added features of existing systems (underwater mode) and the extras this ship has, so I still think the 199,000 credits new price that I somewhat arbitrarily came up with (double the DeepWater) is a good price. With the Hull and Cargo Capacity alone, this ship should not be cheap.

This ship's weapon is a dual pulse laser (Damage 5D) which corresponds to a double-barreled weapon in the pricing system. It provides +1D to damage, so I priced the weapon out as a base damage 4D weapon to end up with the 5D total damage stat. The last page of the pricing system document has an optional rule for multi-barrel that stats the fire cycle can be adjusted in such a way that allows some or all of the extra damage dice over to fire control (in this case only 1D). I like because that makes the multi-barrel aspect more than just appearance and fluff. I edited that rule into the game notes of the weapon block of the ship stats, but made it only available when controlling the weapon in the gunnery bay (not remotely from a bridge station).
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just looked at the stats; did you decide not to go with my Pulse Laser concept?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Just looked at the stats; did you decide not to go with my Pulse Laser concept?

I did and it has always been there since this thread was first posted. Right under Weapons it says "Dual Pulse Laser" and the last sentence of the game notes under the weapon include the rules for underwater use. Check it out: MC-13v2 stats.

Were you maybe instead looking at this DeepWater post that I just posted last night? That's the RAW ship and that doesn't have the pulse laser. It has the normal laser cannon RAW gave it. The first paragraph of my MC-13v2 capsule explains that the DeepWater was produced with the pulse laser prototype housing for an operationally normal laser cannon.

Quote:
The DeepWater even failed to live up to its name in two significant ways. The ship's armament was intended to be a pulse laser weapon that is more effective underwater, but the technology had not been perfected by the time this ship went into production. As a result, a normal laser canon was fitted into in the oversized housing of the pulse laser prototype. Furthermore, some submerged DeepWaters suffered catastrophic failures when the shield system was damaged and the hull collapsed.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, that's what it was. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:09 am    Post subject: MC-13v2 Reply with quote

Thank you to cheshire, Sutehp, CRMcNeill, garhkal for your assistance, suggestions, and feedback on the MC-v2 (through email, google docs, PM and replies in this thread). There were a couple more people I was hoping would be able to give me feedback but it seems they aren't able to spend the time on reading the second through fifth posts of this thread (each linked directly below).

Quote:
main capsule & external image

stock deckplan & key (standard)
stock deckplan details (standard)
stock stats (standard w/ escape pod stats)

Does anyone have any feedback about anything in these four posts?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apart from my previously stated issues with the cargo ejection system, the only other quibble is the Pulse Lasers being removed from the stock version. My thinking is more that pulse lasers, while still a niche application for aerospace/sub-aquatic platforms, are settled tech, which allows them to be in common use both on ships like this and the sorts of ships that might oppose them, like perhaps some sort of TIE Submarine variant.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Apart from my previously stated issues with the cargo ejection system, the only other quibble is the Pulse Lasers being removed from the stock version. My thinking is more that pulse lasers, while still a niche application for aerospace/sub-aquatic platforms, are settled tech, which allows them to be in common use both on ships like this and the sorts of ships that might oppose them, like perhaps some sort of TIE Submarine variant.

I agree. The pulse laser is not removed from the stock version of my ship. It has always been there since you PMed me the idea a year ago.

    Stock DeepWater - regular laser per RAW (called a "laser turret" in WEG Stock Ships)
    Stock MC-13v2 (standard model) - Dual Pulse Laser
    The Odyssey (modified MC-13v2) - Dual Pulse Laser 
[forthcoming]
    Stock MC-13v2p (passenger variant) - Dual Pulse Laser 
[forthcoming]

The DeepWater has the same weapon that RAW gave it. I never changed that. In my version of the DeepWater stats, I only renamed it more appropriately. In the MC-13v2 capsule which fleshes out the DeepWater history, I explain that the DeepWater was supposed to have the Pulse Laser but the tech wasn't ready when it went into production, so it has a normal laser in the pulse laser cannon housing. But for the DeepWater's successor, the MC-13v2, the pulse laser was ready and it has the pulse laser. This explains why the laser canon is disproportionally large on both craft. The DeepWater has a fake pulse laser. My ship, the one I'm asking for feedback on, has the real deal pulse laser.

I'm not changing anything in RAW. The only RAW ship in this post, the DeepWater, still is what it always was. RAW didn't give the DeepWater a pulse laser. (I think you were the one to come up with the idea that the pulse laser worked better underwater.) I just fleshed the DeepWater out a bit towards making its successor model (my creation). I also gave the DeepWater some stats that RAW never did, like its underwater move and escape pods. I filled in some blanks for the RAW DeepWater and gave it more complete stats. I renamed its weapon, but it is still the same weapon it had since it first appeared in Stock Ships.

The stock DeepWater and the stock MC-13v2 are two different classes of ships. My ships, the MC-13v2 and MC-13v2p, are not in RAW at all. I completely made them up. The pulse laser is still on my ships.
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