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Cooperation
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:10 pm    Post subject: Cooperation Reply with quote

I have always thought the rules for cooperation were always lacking. They are passable, though clunky, for combat situations and don't really make sense when a single character is trying to help another character. Cooperation works best when trying to get a small to medium-sized group working towards a common goal.

I have been reading a lot of Starfinder because it was requested by my group. While reading through the core rule book cooperation works like this:

Aid Another (d20)
The GM might rule that you can help someone succeed at a skill check by performing the same action and attempting a skill check as part of a cooperative effort. To do so, you must attempt your skill check before the creature you want to help, and if you succeed at a DC 10 check, that creature gains a +2 bonus to his check ... At the GM’s discretion, only a limited number of creatures might be able to aid another.

This sounds easy and quick, so I got to wondering how this would work in d6 mechanics.

Aid Another (d6)
1. GM decides if others can help with the task and if so, how many.
2. The character(s) attempting to help make same skill check vs. an Easy (10) difficulty.
3. If successful, the character performing the skill check receives a +2 modifier.

Example: Tbitz is helping Mott repair a speeder. Tbitz does not have repulsorlift repair, but he does have Technical 3D. He rolls 3 + 5 + 2 = 5. When Mott rolls he will do so with a +2 modifier.

Another option:

3a. Subtract the skill roll from the Easy (9) task difficulty, the difference is the modifier the character performing the skill check receives.

Example: Tbitz is helping Mott repair a speeder. Tbitz does not have repulsorlift repair, but he does have Technical 3D. He rolls [3] + 5 + 2 = 5. When Mott rolls he will do so with a +1 modifier. If Tbitz's wild die had exploded and he rolls, [6 + 3] + 5 + 2 = 15, Mott would roll his skill check with a +5.

Not sure this works yet, but I think there is something here.

In my games, I handle cooperation this way:

Cooperation (Ollie's Version)
1. GM decides if others can help with the task and if so, how many.
2. The character attempting to help gives a +1 modifier for each D they have in the skill they are attempting to help with.

Example: Tbitz is helping Mott repair a speeder. Tbitz does not have repulsorlift repair, but he does have Technical 3D. When Mott rolls he will do so with a +3 modifier.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always found the cooperation to be pretty clunky. I've experimented with my group by having a cooperation chart (mostly for co-piloting), where I ask them to make a skill roll, and depending on how high they rolled, they could add up to a +5. However, I never found a result I was quite happy with, so I'm still playing with it.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, cooperating is usually just two folk working together (such as pilot/co-pilot).. Not really having more than that.. That's more on the lines of coordination..
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you often use coordination between two or three PCs by RAW?
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Do you often use coordination between two or three PCs by RAW?


I have tried but it just doesn't work. Not only is it clunky, but beyond what is written, it does not work at the table. Especially when one character is trying to help another. For example, helping fix a speeder, help get past a security door, force open a door, etc. In these cases, RAW falls apart.

So I have been working on something that works better, is quicker and encapsulates what is trying to be done within the framework of mechanics.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Do you often use coordination between two or three PCs by RAW?

Just two. Any more than that, imo requires commanding.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not satisfied with the RAW combined actions rules either.

garhkal wrote:
cheshire wrote:
Do you often use coordination between two or three PCs by RAW?

Just two. Any more than that, imo requires commanding.

He asked "by RAW". The rules on R&E p.82 indicate that the command skill is required for even 2 or 3 characters combining actions. So it would seem that for 2 characters, you do not use RAW.
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
He asked "by RAW". The rules on R&E p.82 indicate that the command skill is required for even 2 or 3 characters combining actions. So it would seem that for 2 characters, you do not use RAW.


Furthermore it makes no sense to give a +1 bonus as it costs the person coordinating (commanding) and who makes the roll, will be at a -1D MAP. So the paltry +1 he gets from someone helping makes it even worse. In fact, with three people helping him, he gets back to no MAP.

As I said, for coordinating large groups of a like minded group working towards a single or series of simple tasks, command works, but it does not work for very small groups working together.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
As I said, for coordinating large groups of a like minded group working towards a single or series of simple tasks, command works, but it does not work for very small groups working together.

I agree.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same here. I just haven't found the right math that seems proportionate in testing other ideas.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I'm not satisfied with the RAW combined actions rules either.

garhkal wrote:
cheshire wrote:
Do you often use coordination between two or three PCs by RAW?

Just two. Any more than that, imo requires commanding.

He asked "by RAW". The rules on R&E p.82 indicate that the command skill is required for even 2 or 3 characters combining actions. So it would seem that for 2 characters, you do not use RAW.


I've always seen it (via prior dms) that 2 folk working together don't need a command roll 3 or more is when the roll is done. So yea, i guess that's one of the few spots i don't go by RAW..
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generally, for all but the simplest tasks, there’s going to be some form of Command involved, if only to convey the most basic instructions. One possible solution in this scenario would be to treat the Command roll similarly to a Free Action, as in, require the skill roll, but don’t have it count for MAP purposes.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an aside, I’ve always thought the 2R&E Command rules are excessively restrictive (specifically, the “can only Command one character for every D in Command Skill). 2E Command and Coordination is better suited to commanding large groups (like the crews of starships). What I’m thinking, in combination with my previous post, is to use the 2E rules as a baseline, but allow characters to Command, as a free action, the number of characters </= their number of D in Command. Got 6D in Command? You can use Command on groups of 6 or less without incurring a MAP for the Command skill use.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
As an aside, I’ve always thought the 2R&E Command rules are excessively restrictive (specifically, the “can only Command one character for every D in Command Skill). 2E Command and Coordination is better suited to commanding large groups (like the crews of starships). What I’m thinking, in combination with my previous post, is to use the 2E rules as a baseline, but allow characters to Command, as a free action, the number of characters </= their number of D in Command. Got 6D in Command? You can use Command on groups of 6 or less without incurring a MAP for the Command skill use.


Normally yes, they are limited to a # of people cooridinated per D they have, but there are instances they can go beyond it.. Ie if they are all pretty skilled and used to working together...
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