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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
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Location: San Antonio
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 Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: |
Contrary to the jedi and republic, the Empire actually actively outlawed slavery. |
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookiee#Age_of_the_Empire
| Quote: | | Following the establishment of the Galactic Empire, the Wookiee homeworld of Kashyyyk was blockaded by the Empire. The softening and repeal of anti-slavery laws ultimately led to the Empire classifying the Wookiees as non-sentient.[25] The Empire enslaved the Wookiees not because they were a meaningful threat to the Empire but because their massive, robust physiology allowed them to work long and hard in extreme conditions.[16] |
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Slavery#Age_of_the_Empire
| Quote: |
During the Age of the Empire, slavery once again became commonplace, particularly among alien species, which were considered inferior by the human-dominated Galactic Empire. With the rise of the Empire, the softening and eventual repeal of laws outlawing slavery led to the classification of some species, such as the Wookiees, as non-sentient.[12] As a result, the Wookiees were pressed into slavery building much of the Imperial war machine, or serving in the notorious spice mines of Kessel following the Empire's conquest of their homeworld of Kashyyyk.[13] Another example were the reptilian Bodach'i species who were enslaved and forced to work in the species mines of Kerev Doi as "reparations" for their homeworld's repeated defiance of Imperial decrees.[14] In addition, the Empire used slaves from several alien species to keep Weapons Factory Alpha, the largest weapons factory in the galaxy, on Cymoon 1 running day and night.[15] |
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And NO, the forced labor was not slavery, forced labour and slavery is not the same. |
"We will require you to work. We will not let you leave. If you fail to meet quotas we have set, we will torture and kill you."
Your definitions of such things are at such wild variance with the common that I do not think we can have a meaningful conversation.
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Scots Dragon
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Mar 2017
Posts: 133
Location: A Wee Rainy Island
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | "We will require you to work. We will not let you leave. If you fail to meet quotas we have set, we will torture and kill you." |
And as we see with Despayre, success at meeting quotas means they kill you now that your work is done.
Mostly because in that case the enslaved workforce completed their project on time and entirely to quota, specifically the construction of the First Death Star. The planet was destroyed afterwards, with the entire workforce on it. |
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sullust
what evil did the EMPIRE as a whole do here, what do however see is the "gestapo" or the ISB doing stuff. Not the Empire as a whole.
Already as early 18BBY the planet was stabile, and relative peacefiul.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Thara_Nyende
from the canon book Twilight company, readinf the book the enthusiasm for the "rebels" was not all that high on sullust.......
again show me the evil of the empire as a whole, not sub groups within
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Everi_Chalis
Imperial GOVERNOR......read her background. how much help the benign and beacon of GOOD the republic did in her life, then compare this to what the EVIL empire did?
Who helped this woman out of powerty, what horrible crimes other than lift her planet somewhat out of missery did this agent of the truest evil commit?
again the empire was good, sometimes not all that...and sometimes very much so |
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Scots Dragon
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Mar 2017
Posts: 133
Location: A Wee Rainy Island
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Tell that to Alderaan.
I mean... |
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TauntaunScout
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 970
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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I make the distinction between slavery and forced labor as follows. Forced labor has some kind of due process involved for imposing it, and a time limit. Slavery (in our current parlance) is permanent (unlike other forms of unfree labor such as child apprenticeships or indentured servitude, or ancient forms of fixed term enslavements) and the slave has no protection to speak of, under the law. Even POW's forced into labor might in theory be protected by international laws.
Someone might point out that all of them can lead to a short, brutish and nasty life, and that my distinction is thus meaningless. To this I say, I can equally unpleasantly die of a virus or bacteria but I sure as heck only want to go to a doctor who knows the difference between the two things.
Since this is a WEG board, it shouldn't come as a surprise that you'll run into people (like me) who think the buck stops with WEG supplements. It's clear the empire is evil according the WEG background. |
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
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Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Scots Dragon wrote: | Tell that to Alderaan.
I mean... |
"You would prefer another target... a military target? Then name the system."
"You're far too trusting. Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration, but don't worry; we'll come for your rebel friends, soon enough."
_________________
"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
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Scots Dragon
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Mar 2017
Posts: 133
Location: A Wee Rainy Island
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | I make the distinction between slavery and forced labor as follows. Forced labor has some kind of due process involved for imposing it, and a time limit. Slavery (in our current parlance) is permanent (unlike other forms of unfree labor such as child apprenticeships or indentured servitude, or ancient forms of fixed term enslavements) and the slave has no protection to speak of, under the law. Even POW's forced into labor might in theory be protected by international laws. |
It's very much a distinction without a difference.
And even then, the Empire did actually use slavery-by-that-name so it's not even a distinction that applies. |
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1829
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | I make the distinction between slavery and forced labor as follows. Forced labor has some kind of due process involved for imposing it, and a time limit. Slavery (in our current parlance) is permanent (unlike other forms of unfree labor such as child apprenticeships or indentured servitude, or ancient forms of fixed term enslavements) and the slave has no protection to speak of, under the law. Even POW's forced into labor might in theory be protected by international laws.
Someone might point out that all of them can lead to a short, brutish and nasty life, and that my distinction is thus meaningless. To this I say, I can equally unpleasantly die of a virus or bacteria but I sure as heck only want to go to a doctor who knows the difference between the two things.
Since this is a WEG board, it shouldn't come as a surprise that you'll run into people (like me) who think the buck stops with WEG supplements. It's clear the empire is evil according the WEG background. |
Well put, though if we look beyoned TARKIN*S ( not the empire's or the emperor's) act of destroyong Alderaan, the only real atrocity they commited was the enslavement of the wookies, and to this I am sure there were similarities under the republic, after all the CSA had their reasons to eventually go to war.
Torture, indiscriminate killing of civilian are all acts that are deemed good.
We are left with Geonosis, the genocide there that was actually "only" a continuation of the already ongoing war.
The clone wars did not end with the fomation of the empire, it ended after the now empire waged decisive campaigns agaist them.
if we remove the powerhungry tarkin from the equation, and look to many other imperial of rank we do see a much less balck and white picture.
Without Tarkin, who's actions was NOT applauded by the Emperor, though since tarkin was dead a doornail, the Emperor continued, used his propaganda machine to "lessen the effect".
That being said, according to established ( real life) rules of war, Alderaan being a financial center for the enemy was a MILITARY target, the same way infra structure is a legit target in war.
Bombing(destroying ) Alderaan was no different than any ari force bombing cities to disrupt industry or the supply of rescourses and even finances.
so again, removing individuals and their agenda, where was the empire evil?
Ohh the furr balls, the Wookies, well considering the history and things we see this as a part of the humanocentric policies of NOT ONLY the empire, as this was a thing carried over from the EVIL republic which the Jedi served, making them direct servants of evil.
The CSA rose up in part due to discrimination of aliens, the same CSA that became a big part of the anti imperial rebeliaon, a continuation of the rebeliaon against the republic for the discrimination.
given that the Empire was simply a reorganization, and renaming of the republic, the policies and the oppinions were the same for 19 years.
we can however argue that with the intensifying of the war the Empire became evil, but this in 0bby and out, as the imperial senate even BANNED sonic rifles due to the effect on sentient beings, the REBELS however not only stole and used these devises, but sold them...to crimials.
again If we remove some of the individuals that had their "follies" where is the evil empire?
Was a reorganization of industry on corellia evil or was it organizing the industry to being more effective in the process some workers would naturally be without work...........this would happen regardless of who and what entity would make such a reorganization.
so Again other than some individuals actions, what eveil did the empire do other than when needed with a iron fist create peace and stability to most if not ALL the worlds they controlled? |
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Scots Dragon
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Location: A Wee Rainy Island
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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The Confederacy of Independent Systems went to war in a set of circumstances orchestrated by Palpatine directly to justify the creation of the Empire, so...
Good job for missing that. |
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: |
Torture, indiscriminate killing of civilian are all acts that are deemed good.
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By whom?
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Without Tarkin, who's actions was NOT applauded by the Emperor, |
Since when?
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so again, removing individuals and their agenda, where was the empire evil? |
So, your contention is that every EVIL of the Empire can be attributed to individuals, not to the organization as a whole, despite them being the organization's policies? Policies that were embraced by high leaders within the organization, which shaped the organization to achieve its goals?
That we should overlook the destruction of a planet (which, no doubt, included hundreds if not thousands of off-limits targets like schools, hospitals, aid workers, etc.), the enslavement of multiple species, and, hey, how about wholesale murder of innocent farmers and a colony of junk traders because they may have unwittingly housed for an evening some droids that were on the run from the empire? That these acts can all be attributed to individuals, and no way laid at the feet of the organization whose goals they were serving, whose authority they acted with, and who provided no punishment for their taking the actions?
But we are supposed to CREDIT the Empire for the rare good individuals, who faced official censure for disobeying orders?
_________________
"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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I seriously hope mamatried is just playing Devil’s Advocate here...
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Scots Dragon
Lieutenant Commander
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Posts: 133
Location: A Wee Rainy Island
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I seriously hope mamatried is just playing Devil’s Advocate here... |
I'm starting to suspect they spent a little bit too much time on StarDestroyer.net back in the day. |
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1829
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Scots Dragon wrote: | The Confederacy of Independent Systems went to war in a set of circumstances orchestrated by Palpatine directly to justify the creation of the Empire, so...
Good job for missing that. |
yes and no.
Palpatine manipulated a conflict that already existed, what palpatine did was maniluplate this to HIS liking, making HIM emperor and ruler, he di not however invent the conflict, he "merely" maipulated it.
Again if we look beyond the movie villains, taking and the like, were do we in any way see the empire being outright evil?
Patrolling the lawless streets of Mos Eisley?
Again most, absolutely not all, "crimes" and outright evil acts we see done by powerful figures in a governement that gives said individuals a large degree of self government.
Vader thought Tarking was insane, his own "insane focus" on Luke allowed him to "live with but not accept" Tarkin's action.
It was the Empire NOT the rebel alliance/new republic that relocated and "tried" to do something for the remaining alderanians.
Alderaan was the wallet of the enemy, destroying the wallet you remove the money, removing the money is a "legit" military move.
the alternative from the empire point of view was this: Destroy Aldreraan killing 2 Billion ( it turned out) is better than allowing a destructive war go on for decades, one that intensifies and kills much more.
again if we look beyond Tarkin's destruction of Alderaan (rebel bank) and we accept that Geonosis was actually parts of the clone wars, and this "genocide" would most likely have happened regardless during the war.
In fact the best way to look at the destruction is to comapre with the nukes dropped on Japan, here it was the best realistic alternative at the time, in hidsight maybe less so but this is hidsight and we have to look at the situations as they were.
In this we see Tarking being a fanatic, an extrmist, and we also know from books that the intent of the Death Star was "to scare", not to destoy alderaan, this was Tarkin and tarking alone........NOT acting on any orders to do so.
so Remove Tarkin and I ask again in themovies, who kills the most innocents, tortures the most, killing their own and the like??
Maybe saw and the partisans, maybe the rebels in general??
we never in any incidents see the empire doing this, we do however see Imperials do evil, Tarking being one......
and it is worth noting even the emperor thought that the destruction of Alderaan was a bad mistake and worse, and all things indicate that if Tarking had survivedthe Death Star the Emperor and tarking would have excchanged words. |
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Scots Dragon
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Mar 2017
Posts: 133
Location: A Wee Rainy Island
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: | yes and no.
Palpatine manipulated a conflict that already existed, what palpatine did was maniluplate this to HIS liking, making HIM emperor and ruler, he di not however invent the conflict, he "merely" maipulated it. |
Watch the prequel trilogy again.
The Phantom Menace
Palpatine, in his identity as Darth Sidious, manipulated the Trade Federation into blockading Naboo so that he could become Chancellor. Notably the bureaucrats were also under the control of the Trade Federation, who were under the control of Palpatine. The buck stops with him in this film.
His plan succeeds, he becomes Chancellor.
Attack of the Clones
Darth Sidious' direct servant and apprentice Darth Tyranus, in his identity as Count Dooku, founds the Confederacy of Independent Systems and starts the Clone War.
Notably the Clone Army itself exists only because of the actions of Palpatine and Dooku. Jango Fett was hired to the the template by 'a man called Tyranus', after all. Tyranus is Dooku, Dooku answers to Sidious. Sidious is Palpatine.
Palpatine uses this situation to gain emergency powers and prolong his regime beyond his initial term, forms the Grand Army of the Republic.
This grand army is familiar looking enough that we see white armoured troopers boarding triangle-profile warships to the tune of the Imperial March.
Revenge of the Sith
Palpatine manipulates things further. Arranges the end of the Clone Wars in such a way that the Jedi are almost all wiped out, and their most powerful member is corrupted into being his direct servant. Also clearing the board of all the spare loose ends from the prior CIS.
He uses the attack upon him as a reason to justify imposing greater security on the galaxy at large, and declares himself Emperor, and that he will reform the Republic into the Galactic Empire. And liberty dies to thunderous applause.
Without Palpatine there likely would not have been that scale of conflict to begin with. |
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Also: Palpatine insisted on the insertion of Order 66, and ordered its execution. Executing Order 66 was an act of genocide against a religious group.
_________________
"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/ |
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