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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | The rebels (in the old movies) are not terrorists and wouldn't be called such until the (real world) War on Terror made us all reach for that word instinctively.
When Tarkin says that "fear will keep the local systems in line" and specifically admits that Alderaan is not "a military target" but chooses it to make "an effective demonstration", he's pretty much meeting the definition of terrorism as a tactic.
The empire did not "do more good" than the Republic, that's a whole other ball of wax though. |
I agree.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Contrary to modern retcons and rationalizations, Palpatine doesn't hide his status as a Sith lord trusting it to a "few" beings like his red guards. He loudly talks about in in front of HUGE crowds of troopers in ROTJ. |
That did not happen in any version of RotJ that I have. What source had Palpatine talking to crowds of troopers about being a Sith Lord? You refer to modern retcons being contrary to that, but back in the time of the Classic Trilogy, only Vader was referred to as a "Dark Lord of the Sith". The "Sith" weren't even defined back then and we didn't even know what a "Dark Lord of the Sith" was, only that Vader was one. We didn't know much about the Emperor's background. From RotJ we knew he was an evil Force user.
And besides, even if Palpatine made his Sith affiliation public in the Empire, he would argue that the Sith weren't evil. What shows Palpatine's evil is his own evil actions and the actions of Imperials that he allows.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Scots Dragon wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | The Empire destroyed Alderaan. That cannot be justified. It was evil. Any Imperial not going awol after that is choosing to side with evil. |
In the ten canon films alone, just counting the Galactic Empire;
Revenge of the Sith
The widespread genocide of an entire religious order dedicated to selfless acts, based on a millennia-old grudge. The undermining of the Republic's democracy to create a fully-fledged Galactic Empire, where the Emperor is completely in-charge.
Solo
The entire planet Corellia, a prosperous shipbuilding planet, reduced to basically just being a weapons-mill for a fleet built to fight. The Empire in the process of this basically laid off an entire civilian workforce (note Han: 'My dad used to build these before the Empire shuttered CEC') that resulted in losses of livelihood and most of the planet being plunged into poverty. Escaping from the planet requires bribery of officials as we see there is no freedom of movement, so moving somewhere better is literally impossible.
We also see the widespread practice of slavery not only under the Empire's watch, but by the Empire itself as in the case of Chewbacca.
Rogue One
The massive widespread destruction of religious artefacts, punctuated by the mass destruction of a holy site and pretty much the entire surrounding moon in an early Death Star test. The Empire operates a widespread police state and locks up prisoners for trumped-up reasons. Keep in mind that the Empire built this superweapon to be used upon its own populace.
A New Hope
The arrest and (attempted) execution of political dissidents, in the case of Princess Leia. This is incidentally why the Rebellion exists; peaceful resistance to the Empire, which is basically a fascist state, is not actually all that possible.
Mostly-innocent Jawa traders and definitely innocent farmers are just plain slaughtered for simply being in the way, and it being more convenient to the Empire to just outright kill them rather than leave them alive. The charred skeletons of a couple of moisture farmers who were clearly were no threat to the Empire.
The outright genocide of the Alderaanian people using the aforementioned weapon of mass destruction.
Empire Strikes Back
The takeover and annexing of territory on a world with no actual permission, and a clear unwillingness to act in good faith.
We see instances of torture of prisoners, in the case of Han Solo. Not even as interrogation. It's explicitly just to make him and Leia feel pain. A dangerous and mostly-untested hibernation procedure is also tested on him to make sure it won't kill another person.
Return of the Jedi
Oh look they built another weapon of mass destruction.
We also see that the Empire's destruction is literally celebrated galaxy-wide in the Special Edition. At the very least there are celebrations on Coruscant, Naboo, Bespin, and Tatooine.
And that's not mentioning stuff from the EU or Rebels that goes into much greater depth on just how evil the Empire is. It's worth noting that there's an entire section of the Essential Atlas devoted to listing Imperial Atrocities on dozens of worlds. They include;
- Six counts of genocide
- Thirty-two counts of mass murder of civilians
- Twelve counts of deliberate environmental destruction
- Fifteen counts of mass enslavement
- Seven counts of other systemic basic rights violations
And this is just what we know of.
I don't think you should even need to ask the question as to whether the Empire's evil. They pretty obviously are. |
Nice summary, Scots Dragon. Any Imperial staying loyal to the Empire after learning of these evil things makes them evil. And participating in them? Evil. Nazi war criminals often used the defense than they were only following orders when they committed atrocities. Nazis are evil. Defending them is evil. Someone stating the fictional evil Empire was good isn't evil, but it honestly is a bit disturbing to me.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Any Imperial staying loyal to the Empire after learning of these evil things makes them evil. And participating in them? Evil. Nazi war criminals often used the defense than they were only following orders when they committed atrocities. Nazis are evil. Defending them is evil. Someone stating the fictional evil Empire was good isn't evil, but it honestly is a bit disturbing to me. |
Seconded. When I did my COMPNOR expansion, it took very little creative effort to use the SS as a template. Concentration camps, medical experimentation, secret police, general totalitarianism, etc, are all found in various forms under the Empire. There's something seriously wrong if you can call this stuff "good". Now, it's arguable that the Empire did some good for some people in specific instances, but that doesn't excuse the overall pattern of behavior.
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Scots Dragon
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Mar 2017
Posts: 133
Location: A Wee Rainy Island
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| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Any Imperial staying loyal to the Empire after learning of these evil things makes them evil. And participating in them? Evil. Nazi war criminals often used the defense than they were only following orders when they committed atrocities. Nazis are evil. Defending them is evil. Someone stating the fictional evil Empire was good isn't evil, but it honestly is a bit disturbing to me. |
Seconded. When I did my COMPNOR expansion, it took very little creative effort to use the SS as a template. Concentration camps, medical experimentation, secret police, general totalitarianism, etc, are all found in various forms under the Empire. There's something seriously wrong if you can call this stuff "good". Now, it's arguable that the Empire did some good for some people in specific instances, but that doesn't excuse the overall pattern of behavior. |
One of the things I really liked about Rebels and Rogue One was that they really leaned into a dystopian atmosphere for their depiction of the Empire, ranging from subtle stuff like the armed soldiers on most streets to the overt like it being legally mandated to always have the Imperial propaganda network playing in public spaces. |
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TauntaunScout
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Joined: 20 Apr 2015
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| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
That did not happen in any version of RotJ that I have. What source had Palpatine talking to crowds of troopers about being a Sith Lord? You refer to modern retcons being contrary to that, but back in the time of the Classic Trilogy, only Vader was referred to as a "Dark Lord of the Sith". The "Sith" weren't even defined back then and we didn't even know what a "Dark Lord of the Sith" was, only that Vader was one. We didn't know much about the Emperor's background. From RotJ we knew he was an evil Force user.
And besides, even if Palpatine made his Sith affiliation public in the Empire, he would argue that the Sith weren't evil. What shows Palpatine's evil is his own evil actions and the actions of Imperials that he allows. |
Well he doesn't use the term "Sith", true. But he does talk about evil force using in a pretty obvious way, while he's walking along that hangar.
As far as I can tell, this whole thing (at least for widepsread purposes) goes back to A Case For Empire, a snarky internet piece from like 2003 iirc. The writers of that didn't even seem to be Star Wars fans, for all they seemed to know. That piece was full of holes. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The Emperor: Rise my friend.
Darth Vader: The Death Star will be completed on schedule.
The Emperor: You've done well, Lord Vader. And now I sense you wish to continue your search for young Skywalker.
Darth Vader: Yes, my Master.
The Emperor: Patience my friend. In time he will seek you out, and when he does, you must bring him before me. He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the Dark Side of the Force.
Darth Vader: As you wish.
The Emperor: Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen. |
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Well he doesn't use the term "Sith", true. But he does talk about evil force using in a pretty obvious way, while he's walking along that hangar. |
I see what you mean.
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Scots Dragon
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Mar 2017
Posts: 133
Location: A Wee Rainy Island
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| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Whill wrote: |
That did not happen in any version of RotJ that I have. What source had Palpatine talking to crowds of troopers about being a Sith Lord? You refer to modern retcons being contrary to that, but back in the time of the Classic Trilogy, only Vader was referred to as a "Dark Lord of the Sith". The "Sith" weren't even defined back then and we didn't even know what a "Dark Lord of the Sith" was, only that Vader was one. We didn't know much about the Emperor's background. From RotJ we knew he was an evil Force user.
And besides, even if Palpatine made his Sith affiliation public in the Empire, he would argue that the Sith weren't evil. What shows Palpatine's evil is his own evil actions and the actions of Imperials that he allows. |
Well he doesn't use the term "Sith", true. But he does talk about evil force using in a pretty obvious way, while he's walking along that hangar.
As far as I can tell, this whole thing (at least for widepsread purposes) goes back to A Case For Empire, a snarky internet piece from like 2003 iirc. The writers of that didn't even seem to be Star Wars fans, for all they seemed to know. That piece was full of holes. |
I've seen pretty widespread Empire apologia going back decades, honestly.
There are unfortunately a lot of fans who see the authoritarian fascist dictatorship and find it to be cooler than the rag-tag band of heroes, and it honestly results in some really weird takes. They like to point to TIE Fighter as an example of the Empire being more morally complex, but I'm pretty sure they either never played the game properly, or missed the really thick and obvious layered satire going on.
It also was really common on the old Star Wars and Star Trek crossover or versus discussion forums, with one forum that shall go unnamed being notorious for it. I suppose in that case it comes from the influence of arguing in favour of the Galactic Empire beating the United Federation of Planets or what not, though why it couldn't be the Rebel Alliance beating the Klingons is anyone's guess. |
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RyanDarkstar
Commander
Joined: 04 Dec 2014
Posts: 351
Location: Chambersburg, PA, USA, Earth
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Scots Dragon wrote: | | They like to point to TIE Fighter as an example of the Empire being more morally complex, but I'm pretty sure they either never played the game properly, or missed the really thick and obvious layered satire going on. |
Very much this. When I played TIE Fighter, at first I was flying essentially customs patrol missions which led to defending stations and merchant convoys from pirates and rebels. Once the serious military assignments began against the Rebellion and a rogue Grand Admiral, a figure in the shadows from the Secret Order of the Emperor would give my character additional mission objectives. These missions, while tough bonus objectives, were cool from a playing aspect but left me feeling dirty in the end, especially when a defecting officer is captured, interrogated by Darth Vader and executed.
I much prefer X-wing Alliance, though zipping around in a TIE fighter was fun.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Scots Dragon wrote: |
I've seen pretty widespread Empire apologia going back decades, honestly.
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Fun Fact, the early 2000's are almost decades old now! The Karate Kid is now older than Mr. Myiagi was when the movie The Karate Kid came out. More time separates us from The Beatles playing on Ed Sullivan, than separates the US Civil War from WWI. The movie Forrest Gump is now older than the end of the Vietnam War was when Forrest Gump came out.
Warhammer 40,000 is now older than Elvis Presley was* when W40k came out. Time is marching on!
Though I also had a friend who used to do this with tons of movies just to be annoying. He'd jump on the slightest writing inconsistency to argue that the villain was right and the hero was wrong.
*As defined by a number of characteristics such as time elapsed since the death of Elvis, or the release of the iconic Jailhouse Rock. For that matter, I believe ROTJ is now older than Jailhouse Rock was when ROTJ came out but I'd have to double check. Star Wars is older to kids these days, then Elvis was when I was a kid. Weird. |
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:45 am Post subject: |
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All of the above points to evil acts by the Empire, I do not disagree.
Now let us look to the motivations and the reasons why people do join, what happened to their planets when the empire "came"
If we look to book for the most part, we often get into the minds of the imperial forces.
In the Alliances and Choises of one ( about mara jade) we meet the "hand of judgement"
these were stomtroopers that killed a ISB officer following an incident where they were ordered to kill civilians, something they was NEVER REALLY TASKED with doing othewise, they were MILITARY.
Similarly in Canon books we see the motivations of a sortmtrooper on Sullust, we learn the Why and the morivation behind, we learn that here the empire did stabilize the world, make it better for many, that too goes with themotivations for the "hand of judgement".
the leader figure of them, his story was that he grew up on a crime ridden world, it was anarchy and mayhem, then the empire came and ( most likely by extrmemforce) made the planet safe(er) for him and others, this prompted him to join up.
My Point is that if we take away the movies that is actually less about what the "empire as a whole" does and more as what the Emperor USES his forces for to fight the rebels, then we see a much more nuanced Empire, one that absolutely is not pure evil.
Some legend materials, even some ofthe WEG adventure modules actually touch upon this.
we have planets that after they toss the empire they do NOT want to join the republic, we come to places where the will to resist was little to non exixtent because of a sector or world that was "now" stable and safer than it was before.
so my point is that the empire as a whole was that, a "state" with both good and bad elements, the leadership however at least form "colonel" level and up was what we can consider "evil".
Looking to the Mandalorian we see what the war did, destroyed more than either of the warring factions "fixed", the lawlessness and everthing we saw that culimated in the Clone Wars and the Seperatist faction and the ensuing war ( not taking Palpy's manipulation into account).
Now while the republe was "beningn" it was not good.....
all that is need for evil to triump is for good people to do nothing.......or "to have the jedi order not doing stuff".
so I dare say the Empire as a "state" was not evil, nor was the republeic, but both factions allowed evil to prosper |
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Scots Dragon
Lieutenant Commander
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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The Empire was institutionally evil and run by evil people. The existence of non-evil people under the Empire does not change that.
The Empire is a fascist totalitarian dictatorship run by a cult of evil space wizards. As a government it’s basically Nazi Germany meets Mordor. |
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1829
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Scots Dragon wrote: | The Empire was institutionally evil and run by evil people. The existence of non-evil people under the Empire does not change that.
The Empire is a fascist totalitarian dictatorship run by a cult of evil space wizards. As a government it’s basically Nazi Germany meets Mordor. |
Would creating stability and prosperity to a lawless planet be considered a good or evil act? |
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Scots Dragon
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Mar 2017
Posts: 133
Location: A Wee Rainy Island
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: | | Would creating stability and prosperity to a lawless planet be considered a good or evil act? |
It depends heavily on your definitions of those terms.
But the Empire did not create stability or prosperity for most peoples of the galaxy, and forced them into situations where they had to become outlaws in order to either survive or resist the totalitarian dictatorship run by a cult of evil space wizards. The Empire created instability, restricted prosperity to the few, and allowed or encouraged criminal elements to flourish, forcing many people into armed insurrection.
The Galactic Empire is unambiguously, 100%, no holds barred, evil.
It's even in the first paragraph of the first opening crawl.
| Quote: | | It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. |
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: | | Scots Dragon wrote: | The Empire was institutionally evil and run by evil people. The existence of non-evil people under the Empire does not change that.
The Empire is a fascist totalitarian dictatorship run by a cult of evil space wizards. As a government it’s basically Nazi Germany meets Mordor. |
Would creating stability and prosperity to a lawless planet be considered a good or evil act? |
This is actually discussed in Bloodline. As I recall, one of the Senators is a Empire fetishist, who loved it for just that reason... though his parents were killed by the Empire's enslavement of them.
Quite frankly, once you start arguing "But the slavery was ultimately helpful to the enslaved", you've lost the point.
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1829
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | Mamatried wrote: | | Scots Dragon wrote: | The Empire was institutionally evil and run by evil people. The existence of non-evil people under the Empire does not change that.
The Empire is a fascist totalitarian dictatorship run by a cult of evil space wizards. As a government it’s basically Nazi Germany meets Mordor. |
Would creating stability and prosperity to a lawless planet be considered a good or evil act? |
This is actually discussed in Bloodline. As I recall, one of the Senators is a Empire fetishist, who loved it for just that reason... though his parents were killed by the Empire's enslavement of them.
Quite frankly, once you start arguing "But the slavery was ultimately helpful to the enslaved", you've lost the point. |
Contrary to the jedi and republic, the Empire actually actively outlawed slavery.
And NO, the forced labor was not slavery, forced labour and slavery is not the same.
secondly once there was unrest or a threat to ANY planet controlled by the empire the evil empire did not stand by and do nothing, allowing evil to succeed.
so this all about "grey", is a governement "only" its leader, or is it the sum of every minor leader as well?
Again I refer to the numerous of insights into the minds of Imperial Soldiers and officers under a certain rank, where they all state they was better off after the empire than before.
This is not very different in the IMO fals claim that the sith code or even philosophy is inherently evil, it is not it is just in almost direct opposition to the jedi code.
the sith code is ONLY about freeing one self through being a better self.
nothing is evil in this at all, however most sith were evil........ |
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