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ThrorII
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 12 Jul 2019
Posts: 186
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 Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | Also: Palpatine insisted on the insertion of Order 66, and ordered its execution. Executing Order 66 was an act of genocide against a religious group. |
Yes, but also, per the movies, the Jedi Order were arresting the Supreme Chancellor without lawful authority. Was there a law that said a Sith could not be Chancellor? Was there a law that said the Jedi were the arbiters of removing a chancellor? The Jedi decided unilaterally that once the Outer Rim Sieges were over, the Chancellor must resign. It was not their call. Mace Windu decided unilaterally to murder the Supreme Chancellor because he was "Too dangerous" to be left alive and stand trail.
It was a coup. By an extra-governemental religious organization that had no legal authority to depose the duly elected leader of the Republic and murder him.
That was part of the point of the prequels. The Jedi were an active participant in their own demise.
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ThrorII wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | Also: Palpatine insisted on the insertion of Order 66, and ordered its execution. Executing Order 66 was an act of genocide against a religious group. |
Yes, but also, per the movies, the Jedi Order were arresting the Supreme Chancellor without lawful authority. Was there a law that said a Sith could not be Chancellor? Was there a law that said the Jedi were the arbiters of removing a chancellor? Mace Windu decided unilaterally to murder the Supreme Chancellor because he was "Too dangerous" to be left alive and stand trail.
It was a coup. By an extra-governemental religious organization that had no legal authority to depose the duly elected leader of the Republic and murder him. |
By Mamatried's logic, it was a coup by individuals, not by the whole Order. How did the coup by one individual (Mace Windu) justify the murder of the children? Of the officers serving in remote systems? The subsequent purge of force sensitive individuals?
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Scots Dragon
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Mar 2017
Posts: 133
Location: A Wee Rainy Island
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| ThrorII wrote: | | Yes, but also, per the movies, the Jedi Order were arresting the Supreme Chancellor without lawful authority. Was there a law that said a Sith could not be Chancellor? Was there a law that said the Jedi were the arbiters of removing a chancellor? |
There was multiple legal precedent for most of this going back millennia, so...
Yes. The Jedi Knights could arrest the Chancellor on charges of being a Sith thanks to the fact that the Sith were the enemies of the Republic to the point of translation of their language literally being banned by the senate, and multiple other instances. The Sith Empire had a thousand years prior reduced the Republic to a vestigial dark ages state, and the 'thousand years of peace' was also predicated upon the thousand years without Sith.
Also, yes. The Jedi Knights have acted in the capacity of removing a chancellor deemed illegitimate in the past. Notably during the Pius Dea crusades, after which a Jedi Knight was appointed Supreme Chancellor.
Jedi have served as Supreme Chancellor multiple times during such issues of crisis, including the aforementioned Republic Dark Age.
The only thing Mace did wrong was hesitate long enough for Anakin to intervene. |
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1829
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | ThrorII wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | Also: Palpatine insisted on the insertion of Order 66, and ordered its execution. Executing Order 66 was an act of genocide against a religious group. |
Yes, but also, per the movies, the Jedi Order were arresting the Supreme Chancellor without lawful authority. Was there a law that said a Sith could not be Chancellor? Was there a law that said the Jedi were the arbiters of removing a chancellor? Mace Windu decided unilaterally to murder the Supreme Chancellor because he was "Too dangerous" to be left alive and stand trail.
It was a coup. By an extra-governemental religious organization that had no legal authority to depose the duly elected leader of the Republic and murder him. |
By Mamatried's logic, it was a coup by individuals, not by the whole Order. How did the coup by one individual (Mace Windu) justify the murder of the children? Of the officers serving in remote systems? The subsequent purge of force sensitive individuals? |
I am not saying the Empire were ripe with extrmemists. However if we do dive into star wars, the "good" jedi have their dirt, even the near extermination of enemies, even children.....
Now the killing of the younglings, was this Palpatines direct order or was this how a wrathful Anakin wanted the order to sound.
We KNOW that Palpatine valued those that could be turend to the dark side, a youngling too, so if then look at it from a certain point of view.
Anakin killed the younglings, to prevent any of them to be trained by the empeor and become a rival or replacement.
with the younglings gone as well the Order of the Jedi lay waste, it would be even if the children were turned, this is related to why old man is searching for children right? and why Vader/anakin doesn't want a threat to his status. again we see this numerous times.
so the fact that Anakin killed the younglings does not in any way mean that order 66 included them, in fact the big picture points to palpy wanting them at least some of them, as he was actively searching for force sensitive children later on.
so again the killing of the youngligs proves nothing other than an act of a powerhungry individual taking freedom within a brad order and in doing so preventing future threats to his status.
remember palpatine actually wanted Jacosta nu alive, becuse of the children........vader not being able to reach the children again prtevented future threats to his status by destroyiing the crystal containing the list of force sensitive children.
No the killing of the younglings is nothing more than evidence of one man's decent into darkness.
As to the killing of the others, yes it is extrmeme, but was it truly evil?
What would be the outcome of a galactic war with the jedi order intact?
lets go back to the time of revan..............or maybe lets prevent this by killing enough of the jedi to "kill the order" not all members of the order.
This is also in part why palpatine actually several times directly ordered Vader to STOP hunting Jedi, fully knowin several were still alive, even jedi masters.
Again this only shows evidence of extrmeist within a system that "allows" this without being inherently evil. |
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ThrorII
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 12 Jul 2019
Posts: 186
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Scots Dragon wrote: | | ThrorII wrote: | | Yes, but also, per the movies, the Jedi Order were arresting the Supreme Chancellor without lawful authority. Was there a law that said a Sith could not be Chancellor? Was there a law that said the Jedi were the arbiters of removing a chancellor? |
There was multiple legal precedent for most of this going back millennia, so...
Yes. The Jedi Knights could arrest the Chancellor on charges of being a Sith thanks to the fact that the Sith were the enemies of the Republic to the point of translation of their language literally being banned by the senate, and multiple other instances. The Sith Empire had a thousand years prior reduced the Republic to a vestigial dark ages state, and the 'thousand years of peace' was also predicated upon the thousand years without Sith.
Also, yes. The Jedi Knights have acted in the capacity of removing a chancellor deemed illegitimate in the past. Notably during the Pius Dea crusades, after which a Jedi Knight was appointed Supreme Chancellor.
Jedi have served as Supreme Chancellor multiple times during such issues of crisis, including the aforementioned Republic Dark Age.
The only thing Mace did wrong was hesitate long enough for Anakin to intervene. |
Then the Jedi are no better than the Sith. They can unilaterally depose elected rulers and impose their own leadership on the "Republic", without Senate or Court approval - and INSPITE of possible Senate and Court DISAPPROVAL.
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Scots Dragon
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Mar 2017
Posts: 133
Location: A Wee Rainy Island
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ThrorII wrote: | | Then the Jedi are no better than the Sith. They can unilaterally depose elected rulers and impose their own leadership on the "Republic", without Senate or Court approval - and INSPITE of possible Senate and Court DISAPPROVAL. |
The lack of frequent perpetrations of genocide, mass murder, slavery, and other such evils on the part of the Jedi, who frequently only take control of the Republic as part of a transitionary and rebuilding period and have thusfar always passed power back to civilian hands, would probably indicate that this is not the case. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10296
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:00 am Post subject: PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS |
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Exactly.
| ThrorII wrote: | | Then the Jedi are no better than the Sith. They can unilaterally depose elected rulers and impose their own leadership on the "Republic", without Senate or Court approval - and INSPITE of possible Senate and Court DISAPPROVAL. |
This and other things you've stated are just as absurd as the stuff Mamatried has been stating. Palpatine publicly promised to the galaxy that he would lay down all the emergency powers the Senate had conferred on him when the Separatist crisis ended. (A crisis which he manufactured for the purpose of creating a clone army to destroy Jedi Order, the only thing that stood in his way of declaring himself Emperor.) Palpatine had no intention of laying down the emergency powers. He wanted the opposite of laying down power. He wanted more power, "unlimited power" to use his own words. The Jedi are the Republic police force and went to arrest Palpatine, not assassinate him. Palpatine said, "I am the Senate" which means they are not an independent body that the Jedi can appeal to regarding Palpatine. He controlled the courts too, which is how there were so many mistrials that acquitted Viceroy Gunray. After Palpatine resisted arrest by murdering Jedi Masters, he ordered Anakin to murder younglings!
Palpatine manipulated Anakin and the Jedi to lead to the Jedi confronting Palpatine. It all went exactly as he wanted. The Jedi Order is flawed, yes. Palpatine took advantage of its imperfections to defeat them. This does not mean that "the Jedi are no better than the Sith." The Jedi have a lot more goodness than the Sith. I am incredulous that you don't really know this because it is so obvious.
| Scots Dragon wrote: | The Galactic Empire is unambiguously, 100%, no holds barred, evil.
It's even in the first paragraph of the first opening crawl.
| Quote: | | It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. |
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Thank you. This is an out-of-universe narrator statement about the in-universe Empire. This is a major premise of Star Wars. The Empire is evil, period.
| Quote: | | Nazis are evil. Defending them is evil. Someone stating the fictional evil Empire was good isn't evil, but it honestly is a bit disturbing to me. |
My, some of you have been busy today, adding a couple pages to this thread! It's disappointing that this is the thread though.
| Quote: | | I seriously hope mamatried is just playing Devil’s Advocate here... |
On the first page of this thread, I asked Mamatried a direct real world question about him as a fan (that he failed to even acknowledge) to determine if he was just playing Devil's Advocate or if he really felt this way. Now on page 4, I think this thread serves as evidence that another term applies more than Devil's Advocate.
| In the Forum Guidelines, the Site Admin wrote: | | Do not troll others. |
| Whill wrote: | | Mamatried, do you root for the Empire when you watch the films? Do you hate the end of ANH because the Empire's Death Star Wars was destroyed? Do you think the Dark Side is good? |
Mamatried, I'm not even going to dignify any of the rubbish you have been posting in this thread by quoting it here. You are getting a warning. This could have been prevented if you had indulged my question on page 1 (even by PM) and I could have nipped this in the bud back then. If you truly feel that the Empire is good, that is extremely disturbing to many here. I can't even fathom how you can even be a fan of this franchise because the Empire and the Sith lose. If you can't keep that to yourself, then I feel this is not the forum for you and you should strongly consider leaving. On the other hand, if you don't really feel this way, then you are just being a Troll, which is a violation of forum guidelines.
Star Wars is built on the premise that the Empire is evil. The Jedi are not perfectly good, but the Sith are totally evil until the moment Anakin defeated Vader to save his son. We once had someone here who was in an antagonistic mood one week and vehemently argued the "horrific" evil of the Obi-Wan character due to Obi-Wan's feelings of rage that John Williams expressed in the "The Immolation Scene" music. That's poodu. The guy was being a troll. Star Wars is built on the premise that Obi-Wan is imperfect, but good.
I'm closing this thread but leaving it here for two reasons: (1) So others can see an example of unacceptable trolling here, and (2) So GMs can use all the Sith/Imperial propaganda posted here in their games, giving this thread a practical purpose more in line with the main purpose of this website.
Mamatried and ThrorII, please consider this an official warning. Though shalt not troll. I have spoken. I understand this behavior is acceptable elsewhere on the internet but don't bring it here. I have no tolerance for trolls.
And a final word of advise. Do not ignore my posts. Thank you.
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