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Whill
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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 Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I picture teleportation being a little more common, but still only accessible to specific Force disciplines or advanced alien technology. One neat source for Teleportation power concepts is the D&D 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook, which has an entire discipline based on teleportation and similar mobility effects. I compiled a list in another topic of potential teleport-based powers that might be interesting to flesh out Tim Zahn's Aing-Tii concept... |
D6 Space has a Metaphysics translocation manipulation. I have no memory of that 2011 thread, and I am unfamiliar with Aing-Tii concept because I never read that book. I read half of SotP and gave it up out of boredom. But I'd still be interested in seeing what you come up with the Force power rules.
| Sutehp wrote: | But TRoS went the opposite way with me; my dislike of this film has only grown over time, not diminished. The major reason for that was that TRoS had way too many flaws to ever reconcile.
As soon as I saw the hyperspace skipping scene in the theater, I thought "wait, this totally contradicts what was said in TLJ about hyperspace tracking" and began hoping against hope that more such silliness would not ensue during the rest of the movie.
For all the reasons that Whill described in his posts, that hope was in vain.
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What a disappointing way to end the Skywalker Saga.    |
For films I really love (worth repeat viewings), I usually enjoy them the most my second viewing. That did not happen with TLJ or TRoS, but I can say that TRoS has actually improved my view of TLJ, a little bit.
I've heard that a lot of people who enjoyed TRoS a lot more than me did not enjoy it as much the second time, or realized over time that it wasn't as great as they had originally felt. It's like a magical spell that wears off over time. That must be what Abrams is good at doing, robotically checking all these boxes for a cinematic spectacle that dazzles at first, until the spell wears off and you realized that you got scammed out of the price of a movie ticket.
For people that enjoyed TRoS and didn't experience the spell wearing off, my suggestion is: Don't ever watch it again. You may regret it. (j/k)
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | JJ turned it into The Palpatine Saga, which was an odd move for Disney to allow IMO. |
But Abrams didn't turn TRoS into the Palpatine Saga, and that is a major part of the problem. He and Kennedy instead tried to use the Jedi Mind Trick on us to make us think the Disney Trio was a Palpatine Saga, but to quote the exalted Jabba the Hutt, "Your mind powers won't work on me, boy."
It's funny. TRoS Visual Dictionary has a big opening section that recaps the previous two films with material from the previous two VDs, except in this one the text was rewritten to reframe the story in the context of TRoS. And people say that Lucas rewrites history! Disneyfilm took it to a brand new level, way further than Lucas ever did.
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Darklighter79
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
D6 Space has a Metaphysics translocation manipulation. I have no memory of that 2011 thread, and I am unfamiliar with Aing-Tii concept because I never read that book. |
D6s translocation is a good power to be adapted to SW. With variable difficulty depending on size and distance.
As for Aing-Tii, in d20 Saga they had Fold Space Mastery special power. It was just like hyperspace but instead of "computer use" skill (Astrogation in SWd6) they used "Use the Force skill". If succeeded, the travel was instantaneous.
Regular Fold Space power allowed limited range teleportation of up to 60 meters of an object (max size AT-AT, YT-1300)
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | D6 Space has a Metaphysics translocation manipulation. I have no memory of that 2011 thread, and I am unfamiliar with Aing-Tii concept because I never read that book. I read half of SotP and gave it up out of boredom. But I'd still be interested in seeing what you come up with the Force power rules. |
SotP is only really readable as part of the duology. Zahn basically invented the concept of the Aing-Tii as teleportation specialists (there's no evidence I can recall in the Darkstryder books about the Aing-Tii being anything other than a normal race of Force users), but it makes for some interesting twists.
Since we're on the subject, I also did a crossover stat for Warhammer 40K teleporters, but they're massive machines that have to be mounted in either a capital ship or large structure, and actually inflict stun damage on the characters being teleported, so they're not really suitable for anything other than military purposes (transporting small numbers of tough, heavily armored soldiers).
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | It is clear that the die hard fans of these franchises are generally not the ones who make or break a film's success. |
We don't decide if it makes money or not. But we can decide if it breaks records or not, with our multiple repeat viewings. We are also obviously the ones the merchandise is directed at. It costs too much for causal kids play anymore. The action figures have risen about 50% above inflation. The Black Series is hardly for causal viewers.
TROS was never going to lose money. But it is the least profitable and least well critically received of the ST. Abrams messed it up. But once you're above a certain paygrade, cronyism kicks in and you can only fail upwards. See Also: Golden Parachutes on Wall St.
Personally I have a very narrow canon and everything else is in the same category as Planet of the Hoojibs or Encounter at Ord Mantell.
They could have done their actual job as professional film makers, but they didn't. The amount of money I spend on hobbies is absurd. But due to this long string of artistic failures (and frankly erratic merchandising plan) probably 80% of it goes to reenacting and the Warhammer universe, instead of Star Wars.
Most of that 20% figure goes to used stuff that Disney doesn't make anything on. Course GW drove Warhammer off a cliff sometime around 2005 so I only buy used stuff on eBay. |
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Scots Dragon
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | D6 Space has a Metaphysics translocation manipulation. I have no memory of that 2011 thread, and I am unfamiliar with Aing-Tii concept because I never read that book. I read half of SotP and gave it up out of boredom. But I'd still be interested in seeing what you come up with the Force power rules. |
SotP is only really readable as part of the duology. Zahn basically invented the concept of the Aing-Tii as teleportation specialists (there's no evidence I can recall in the Darkstryder books about the Aing-Tii being anything other than a normal race of Force users), but it makes for some interesting twists.
Since we're on the subject, I also did a crossover stat for Warhammer 40K teleporters, but they're massive machines that have to be mounted in either a capital ship or large structure, and actually inflict stun damage on the characters being teleported, so they're not really suitable for anything other than military purposes (transporting small numbers of tough, heavily armored soldiers). |
As a sidenote to that, the Rakata had some teleporters that were used as a plot point for one of the side quests in Star Wars: The Old Republic. You could actually justify the use of the 40k teleporters that way. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| Scots Dragon wrote: | | As a sidenote to that, the Rakata had some teleporters that were used as a plot point for one of the side quests in Star Wars: The Old Republic. You could actually justify the use of the 40k teleporters that way. |
There was also a Boba Fett comic that made use of a dimensional gate, and the Gree have always had dimensional gate tech (even if they aren't sure how it works anymore), but IMO, any teleportation in the SWU should not be common or mainstream.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | JJ turned it into The Palpatine Saga, which was an odd move for Disney to allow IMO. |
But Abrams didn't turn TRoS into the Palpatine Saga, and that is a major part of the problem. He and Kennedy instead tried to use the Jedi Mind Trick on us to make us think the Disney Trio was a Palpatine Saga, but to quote the exalted Jabba the Hutt, "Your mind powers won't work on me, boy." |
Not the Disney trio. All 9 films. It's not Anakin's story now. It's Palpatine's. Between bringing him back, having him pull Snoke's strings apparently, and making Rey his granddaughter, I don't know what else you'd call it.
| Quote: |
It's funny. TRoS Visual Dictionary has a big opening section that recaps the previous two films with material from the previous two VDs, except in this one the text was rewritten to reframe the story in the context of TRoS. And people say that Lucas rewrites history! Disneyfilm took it to a brand new level, way further than Lucas ever did. |
A meaningless distinction to me at this point. It's like saying criminal neglect vs. criminal abuse. Almost everyone has been leaving the corpus of work worse than they found it with their contributions. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:17 pm Post subject: TRoS, The Sequel Trilogy & The Skywalker Saga |
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Oh no! The Rise of Skywalker was real bad :(
This video is an hour long. I shared this because it is a pretty good breakdown of a lot of issues with the film, most of which I did not even mention in my breakdown. I'm sure there are a million videos that bash the every Star Wars film since 1997, but this is from an obvious fan of TFA and TLJ, so it is not just someone who hated the first two films of the trio so unsurprisingly hates the third one too. She didn't like Rogue One or Solo so I'm not just sharing someone who I agree with. There are a few issues for her that aren't issues for me. She does employ hyperbole on a couple points, but this is mostly right on target. She's funny at times but I can definitely understand people finding her annoying.
'Star Wars' May Never Recover From The Damage Done By 'Rise Of Skywalker'
This short article is from the Forbes film industry guy I follow. It isn't really a doom and gloom message like the title sounds. And this guy thought TLJ was the best SW film of them all, so we definitely do not agree on everything about Star Wars!
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Grimace
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:30 am Post subject: |
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I feel pity for all of the people who cannot find joy in Star Wars anymore.
Their minds are closed. Their imagination shot with the expectations that everything must be explained in detail lest it be a "bad" effort.
If people don't want to use anything from the Rise of Skywalker, then IGNORE IT, and don't waste any more time dwelling on it!
Take what you like, ignore the rest!
But the constant beating of the dead horse just baffles me as to why people continue to put more effort towards something they don't like. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:36 am Post subject: TRoS, The Sequel Trilogy & The Skywalker Saga |
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| Grimace wrote: | | I feel pity for all of the people who cannot find joy in Star Wars anymore. |
I don't know of anyone who used to enjoy some Star Wars and now cannot enjoy any Star Wars at all. Most people who ever enjoyed the classic trilogy still do. And if anyone out there who used to like some Star Wars really doesn't enjoy it at all anymore, they have left the franchise behind and aren't still talking about it. Therefore, I don't think you are actually talking about people who don't enjoy any Star Wars films. I think by "anymore" you must be specifically referring to people who do not enjoy the Disney movies. This sentiment would only seem to make sense coming from someone who believes all Star Wars movies are the same, all are equally good. But I happen to know you don't feel that way because you did not enjoy the PT. In 2005 when we thought the six Lucas movies were it, the phrase "people who cannot find joy in Star Wars anymore" in the recent movie sense applied to you at the time. Did you feel self pity back then, like how you feel pity for people who don't enjoy all the Disney movies now? Did you feel pity for other fans who disliked the PT?
I feel sorry for any SW fans who do not enjoy any Star Wars movies, old or new. I then felt and still do feel sorry for you not enjoying the PT. I do feel sorry for myself and others who did not enjoy TLJ and TRoS more. My pity is not only extended to those who do not like the same movies I like. I'm not sure you feel the same way...
| Quote: | | Their minds are closed. |
Ouch. This hits close to home because I used to feel that way about those who dislike the PT, but I have since realized I was wrong. I was the one being close minded by thinking that. Someone not enjoying the same things I do does not necessarily mean they are closed minded. Would it be fair to say that someone who doesn't like seeing Anakin as a 9 year-old is just being close minded? Is not being amused by Jar Jar being closed minded?
Closed mindedness is more along the lines of categorical prejudices, such as one disliking everything Lucas said or did after a certain cut-off year, one assuming any information about the history of Star Wars is false if it's outside of their own existing understanding, one assuming all Disney Star Wars movies will be bad because they didn't like TFA, or one I was guilty of in my youth: assuming all Star Wars movies will always be awesome just because it is Star Wars.
Based on your entire post, it seems like you are suggesting that if someone doesn't like TRoS, there is something wrong with them, not anything wrong with the movie. I very much disagree with that notion. I'm not getting the impression that you read my first six posts in this thread, but posts 3-6 demonstrate that there is a lot not to like about the movie, even by a diehard Star Wars fan as big as me.
| Quote: | | Their imagination shot with the expectations |
Of course, expectations in general and each fan's personal imagination is a huge factor in how much they like a movie. A lot of people imagined what the lives of a young Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan were like, what the Clone Wars were about, how the Empire came to power, and were disappointed that what they got was different. The same thing applies to the lives of Luke, Han, and Leia beyond RotJ, and their children. What can we do? We are fans with imaginations. The best we can do is try to keep an open mind to enjoying someone else's imagination as much as possible.
Speaking for myself, I've done an amazing job at this endeavor for a first generation SW fan. I ignored the outrageous hokeyiness of the hyperlight weapon planet and the fact that TFA is a thinly disguised reprise of ANH to enjoy the movie a lot anyway and look forward to the rest of the "trilogy". I love Rogue One and Solo. I was disappointed with TLJ but I did not assume TRoS would suck (which could have been a self-fulfilling prophecy that worsened my experience of it). I gave TRoS a chance and saw it four times in the theater. However my disappointment with TLJ did help me not get my hopes up too much for TRoS, so my disappointment in TRoS it was actually minimized.
| Quote: | | Their imagination shot with the expectations that everything must be explained in detail lest it be a "bad" effort. |
This could be true for some fans but this definitely isn't the issue for all people who disliked TRoS. I for one was even happy that Snoke was killed like he was and I did not think that any backstory would have helped. I actually liked the idea that Snoke was a hideous DarkSide-Frankenstein creation of Palpatine's - 'Nuff said. Palpatine however was a major character from both prior trilogies and for his return from death, it's not that we needed a detailed explanation, just that there was no explanation in the film at all. We have contradictory clues about it, as I detailed in this post.
Saying that TRoS detractors think the film is bad because it does not have detailed explanations is overgeneralizing and dismissive of all their many issues with the film. With TRoS, a much bigger issue than explanations without detail is all the contradictions with itself, the two prior films of the "trilogy", and the prior trilogies. TRoS had more discontinuities than all the other movies combined. Some of these are fundamental flaws. As I detailed here, the prior two films were based on the premise that Leia was not a Jedi because The FO hunting down Luke is what would would prevent any new apprentices from being trained, but then in TRoS suddenly Leia is training a Jedi apprentice. Loading the film down with detailed explanations would not have helped. Rewriting the film to eliminate the contradictions would have helped, but it would have been a major rewrite of the story.
| Quote: | If people don't want to use anything from the Rise of Skywalker, then IGNORE IT, and don't waste any more time dwelling on it!
Take what you like, ignore the rest! |
Amen brother. You are preaching to the choir here. There are some things from the Disney Trio I will use for my game, and I'll chuck the rest. But I don't think there has been a lot of time wasted here talking about the film. All Star Wars movies are a big deal. There certainly has not been any dwelling on it at all. TRoS is still in the movie theaters.
| Quote: | | But the constant beating of the dead horse just baffles me as to why people continue to put more effort towards something they don't like. |
There are no dead horses here. My single post comprised of all the things I enjoyed about TRoS is probably longer than any post by anyone else here that posted negatively about the film. And there has been less discussion about this film in the first two months of release than any of the previous films, and the overall reaction here has been a lot more positive than I expected. When I saw the film on the premiere night, I was honestly worried that there was going to be a bloodbath of negativity posted, but I was wrong. My fear obviously came out of my own reaction to it.
If you have read my conclusions post, you would know that this thread is part of my therapy. Expressing and discussing my reactions with the community is a catharsis to accept the bad Star Wars film and move on. And this thread isn't just about TRoS. It is about the whole trio of films, which just recently ended. And you should really consider that this is a new experience for me. I'm not used to not liking Star Wars movies or excommunicating films from my person canon. Some of you have been doing that since 1999 so it's old hat.
There is another very important purpose to taking over a month to write the first 6 posts of this thread. I have spent the last 4 years defending this "trilogy" and moderating the animosity of others towards the films. Including TLJ. It started getting really old defending a film I didn't even like much myself. But I urged everyone to give the whole "trilogy" a chance which meant giving TRoS a chance to resolve their issues with the previous two films. Well, it's over now and TRoS caused more issues. I'm sure some people were actually even feeling a little schadenfreude that I had my reaction to TRoS thinking, 'Yeah, now he knows what it feels like.' If I just said, "I didn't like the movie now let's just move on" that would come across like a million other negative film bashers on the internet who just say they don't like things without any meaningful consideration of the film or the opinions and feelings of others. My posts here show that I've done my homework and even researched external sources to try to help the film make more sense. It's not that the other films don't have issues - It's just that this film has way too many to resolve.
Anyone can say they didn't like a Star Wars movie. Can everyone show you why? I'm far from a whiny hater that just wants to bash films. And I am not one of those fans that try to persuade other people to not like a film I don't like. Those people disgust me. I am genuinely happy for others who liked TRoS. Considering all of my prior positivity I've posted about all the films, I think in this thread I've proven that my opinions of TRoS and the Disney Trio are valid. With all the detailed thoughts and justifications I have posted, I feel that I've earned the right to not like TRoS much overall! It's not beating a dead horse.
Instead of just complaining about people who don't like the film and dismissing their reactions, it would be a lot more helpful to engage with us about the film. I invited everyone who liked it more than me to share why they liked it. Oppose my specific criticisms with specific explanations or why a point is not an issue for you. There are probably a lot of SW fans who want to enjoy the movie more but are struggling with many of the issues that I mention here. TRoS fans have an open invitation to counter my dislike of the film. It could help others.
Thank you.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Um. I mean people are still debating the merits and flaws of plays that are hundreds of years old. Do they just need to get over it and move on?
My brother doesn't find joy in Star Wars anymore because the new movies are so weird that his kids dislike it. To him, watching the OT is depressing, like visiting a grave. I think its an extreme reaction but there it is. If it's not for us adults and it's not for our kids, who's left? |
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Most people who ever enjoyed the classic trilogy still do. And if anyone out there who used to like some Star Wars really doesn't enjoy it at all anymore, they have left the franchise behind and aren't still talking about it... |
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | My brother doesn't find joy in Star Wars anymore because the new movies are so weird that his kids dislike it. To him, watching the OT is depressing, like visiting a grave. I think its an extreme reaction but there it is. If it's not for us adults and it's not for our kids, who's left? |
Fair enough. Your brother is an example of someone who can't find joy in the classic trilogy anymore. I'm sorry. But I'll wager he does not spend time on the internet bashing the latest film though. And Grimace was talking about the Disney movies specifically.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think he even bothered to see the latest film. I know he didn't see SOLO. And this from a guy who's college nickname was "Darth", tons of people didn't even know his real name back then. |
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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As it's the type of thing I do, I am currently reading Plutarch's biographies of famous Athenians. He's pretty much the last of the pagan Greek historians, and his work was cut out for him because, as he constantly acknowledges, his sources are highly conflicting in their reporting, and are a slurry of fact, fiction, religion, politics, and poetry. He talks about mythological characters as if they're real, but, presents to the reader multiple, often conflicting, stories about them (I particularly like his non-supernatural version of The Minotaur myth). Then he'll usually weigh in and say which he thinks is probably the most accurate version of the event in question.
If even something as embedded in our culture as Greek Mythology isn't consistent in the modern sense of a film canon, why should Star Wars have to be?
To me, the OT, Rogue One, and The Mandalorian (Season 1), and WEG background info are historical fact, in-universe. The other 7 movies, and every other thing ever written, are highly suspect and (at best) contain only a kernel of in-universe truth. Like different versions of the adventrues of Hercules, I do not feel the need for them to make much sense.
Remember the actual 80's? Any attempt at a "canon" would have been impossible for a lot of kids' franchises back then. Sometimes characters who were evil in the comics were good on the tv show. There were toys of things that looked little to nothing like the screen version. Inconsistencies were everywhere and there was no possibility of reconciling them. You and your friends just had to agree what the rules were for this particular afternoon's game of pretend. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Um. I mean people are still debating the merits and flaws of plays that are hundreds of years old. Do they just need to get over it and move on? |
Good point, but I really don't want to dwell on it. The movie only came out in December is still in the theaters, so it is still a 'hot topic' right now. They are saying that the story started with the original Star Wars film over 42 years ago is now "complete". The declared conclusion of the so-called "Skywalker Saga" is a big deal.
And despite my reaction to the so-called "sequel trilogy", I do feel a sense of liberation that my post-RotJ setting can move forward instead of being in a tentative status it has been in since 2012. I haven't gamed in that era in many years and I probably won't get back to it for a long time, but there is a lot of pre-RotJ groundwork that can be laid down in my SWU for it.
I don't expect that any movie will even stopped being talked about completely, but sure, it will lessen over time. I get being sick of seeing a bunch of negativity about something you like, but I have posted more criticism of TRoS than anyone else here and I am a nice guy about it. It would be different if I was being antagonistic about it, but I'm not. This site is a safe haven for fans of any films, a relative tropical paradise island in the ocean of toxic Star Wars fandom.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | As it's the type of thing I do, I am currently reading Plutarch's biographies of famous Athenians. He's pretty much the last of the pagan Greek historians, and his work was cut out for him because, as he constantly acknowledges, his sources are highly conflicting in their reporting, and are a slurry of fact, fiction, religion, politics, and poetry. He talks about mythological characters as if they're real, but, presents to the reader multiple, often conflicting, stories about them (I particularly like his non-supernatural version of The Minotaur myth). Then he'll usually weigh in and say which he thinks is probably the most accurate version of the event in question. |
Very cool. I haven't read Plutarch, but I've been a lifelong fan of Greek mythology since I first discovered its existence in 1980. My current SW campaign is influenced by The Odyssey.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | If even something as embedded in our culture as Greek Mythology isn't consistent in the modern sense of a film canon, why should Star Wars have to be?
To me, the OT, Rogue One, and The Mandalorian (Season 1), and WEG background info are historical fact, in-universe. The other 7 movies, and every other thing ever written, are highly suspect and (at best) contain only a kernel of in-universe truth. Like different versions of the adventrues of Hercules, I do not feel the need for them to make much sense. |
In this franchise, that's a very healthy attitude for a fan to have about "canon". I feel the same way about defining my personal SWU's in-universe canon, and then considering the rest as possibly based on a true story. I'm still able to enjoy TFA as a self-contained story, even though several aspects of it definitely do not exist in my SWU.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Remember the actual 80's? Any attempt at a "canon" would have been impossible for a lot of kids' franchises back then. Sometimes characters who were evil in the comics were good on the tv show. There were toys of things that looked little to nothing like the screen version. Inconsistencies were everywhere and there was no possibility of reconciling them. You and your friends just had to agree what the rules were for this particular afternoon's game of pretend. |
This sparked an old memory. My first Star Wars "roleplaying" experience actually goes back to the summer of 78 or 79 and predates me starting to play D&D (which was 1980). Two of my neighborhood friends were a genius kid my age who had a college reading level (the one who later introduced me to D&D), and a kid a couple years older than us. We live-action "let's pretend" roleplayed Star Wars to create new stories a few times (no game rules). I remember when we were planning it out before the first time, and we all put dibs on which characters we would play (I'm pretty sure I called Han Solo before anyone else). Then the friend my age said something like, "When should these adventures take place with respect to the film?" (Yes in elementary school this kid really talked like that.) I thought about it. He said, "After"? I said No. He asked "Before?" I said No. He said, "During?!" I said, "No... Instead of." So we just made up alternate "stories" using the same characters and setting. That's all I remember because it was over 40 years ago, but it is funny I remember that that detail.
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