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TRoS, The Sequel Trilogy & The Skywalker Saga

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Scots Dragon
Lieutenant Commander

Joined: 03 Mar 2017
Posts: 133
Location: A Wee Rainy Island

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:18 pm Post subject:

TauntaunScout wrote:

To me, the OT, Rogue One, and The Mandalorian (Season 1), and WEG background info are historical fact, in-universe. The other 7 movies, and every other thing ever written, are highly suspect and (at best) contain only a kernel of in-universe truth. Like different versions of the adventrues of Hercules, I do not feel the need for them to make much sense.

Fantasy Flight Games, for all of their other missteps, did a really cool version of this in Nexus of Power where they presented the records of characters like Ulic Qel-Droma and Darth Revan as being full of contradictory mythological elements.

I also feel like you could make an argument for an inverse of one of Yoda's phrases from Empire Strikes Back:

'Always in motion is the future.'

Thus

'Always in motion is the past.'

I suppose it helps that I'm a Doctor Who fan.

TauntaunScout
Line Captain

Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 970

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:38 pm Post subject:

Yeah. We too, were playing a SW RPG without the knowledge of what an RPG was, or any dice or rules.There was always an unofficial gamemaster (usually the oldest kid) who decided what the equivalent of NPC's were up to, threw badguys at you, etc.

Grimace
Captain
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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:53 am Post subject: Re: TRoS, The Sequel Trilogy & The Skywalker Saga

Whill wrote:

Instead of just complaining about people who don't like the film and dismissing their reactions, it would be a lot more helpful to engage with us about the film. I invited everyone who liked it more than me to share why they liked it. Oppose my specific criticisms with specific explanations or why a point is not an issue for you. There are probably a lot of SW fans who want to enjoy the movie more but are struggling with many of the issues that I mention here. TRoS fans have an open invitation to counter my dislike of the film. It could help others.

Thank you.

I will respond to your criticisms, your dislikes. I am toiling through them, and though I find myself sometimes tense reading the lines, I am creating a rebuttal.

Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: TRoS, The Sequel Trilogy & The Skywalker Saga

Grimace wrote:

I will respond to your criticisms, your dislikes. I am toiling through them, and though I find myself sometimes tense reading the lines, I am creating a rebuttal.

Well don't stress over it, but any positive rebuttals you can muster will be welcomed whether I agree or disagree. Thank you.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:06 am Post subject: Return of the Dark Emperor

In Jan 2014, Whill wrote:

Centinull wrote:

Whill wrote:

The lame resurrections of Palpatine and Boba Fett, more Skywalkers joining the Dark Side, Anakin Solo, alien invaders of the week, the death of Chewbacca, etc.

I think you should prepare for some disappointment. The Emperor, at least in force ghost form, could return, Boba Fett returns in his own stand alone movie, and the Solo children are the natural characters to pass the torch to in episodes VIII and IX.

Sorry my intended meaning wasn't more clear. I said "lame resurrections" meaning that it was done in a lame way for a lame purpose in the EU. I did not mean that any possible cinematic return of Palpatine would be lame. I'm open to the possibility of them finding a way to make it cool.

It's funny to read old speculation from 6 years ago. I found this and shared it because details of the forthcoming TRoS novelization have been revealed and guess what?

In Jan 2020, Whill wrote:

I truly do think that Abrams, the other film writer, or both of them actually read Dark Empire before or during the writing the story for TRoS.

So it seems that the explanation for Palpatine's return in TRoS, which was left out of the film, was almost exactly lifted from The Dark Empire comic book series (91-92). The Emperor had multiple clone bodies lined up and transfers his spirit from body to body because each body is burned out by the awesome dark side energy. That would explain why he didn't have his melty face, because his original body that had that did actually die on the Death Star. And it explains why he needs a crane to move and hold up his frail body with crumbling fingers, because that is a clone body almost consumed by the Dark Side. I find it amusing that Disney canon's answer to Palpatine's comic book return is, his comic book return adapted for film.

As I said in my thoughts and reactions piece, the only reason not to include something so vital to the plot of the film would be if the explanation is worse than it not being there. This isn't really a good explanation for Palpatine's return, but I still think it would have helped a little if it had been there, instead of just not addressing it at all. It at least would have made me smile and given me a chuckle that they went "Dark Empire" in the movie.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-palpatine-clone-rise-skywalker-confirm-novel/

OK, but I still have questions I doubt the novelization will answer many of. Why did he not just transfer to a new clone body? Was that his last one? Was that why he revealed himself to the galaxy, so someone could bring a fresh young body for him to possess? And one thing not in TDE was the "I am all the Sith" premise of all the masters' spirits being past down to their apprentices. So all the prior Sith spirits in his lineage are being transferred from body to body with Palpatine's spirit? That would explain the clone bodies being burned out quickly, but why can uncloned bodies handle the Sith abomination no problem, but clone bodies can't?

I find that I have a strange urge to read TDE again. I'm also actually considering reading the TRoS novelization, maybe just to see the steam coming out of the author's head as she tries to make sense of that clusterfudge of cinema. TLJ is the only film novelization I haven't read, and I find that I'm still not that interested in that one.

The Rise of Skywalker: Expanded Edition comes out March 17th.
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TauntaunScout
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Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 970

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:01 am Post subject:

But if he wanted a new body brought to him, why stay on a planet that's virtually impossible to get to?

Darklighter79
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Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 529

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:36 am Post subject:

Still, Dark Empire was retconned after PT. https://screenrant.com/star-wars-9-rise-skywalker-palpatine-not-force-ghost/ Four billion dollars is not enough to change the rules. _________________ Don’t Let the Rules Get in the Way of a Good Story.

Grimace
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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
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Location: Montana; Big Sky Country

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:53 am Post subject: Re: The Rise of Skywalker and THE DISNEY FILM TRIO

Okay, here is my rebuttal to the "Rise of Skywalker and the Disney Film Trio" post.

Whill wrote:

"I knew it was leading somewhere." In light of TRoS, Rey's dark cave vision in TLJ is utterly meaningless. Some of her TFA vision is meaningless too. Now it makes no sense that Anakin's lightsaber would have "called out" to Rey in the first place.

Rey's dark cave vision makes perfect sense. It coincides with Luke's wariness of Rey's inclination to immediately seek out the Dark Side part of the island, which freaked him out.

Rey was not bound by the dark side. It did not have any pull on her. It showed her "nothing", by showing her as an infinite version of herself. It was saying "you have no darkness to feed on, no fears besides being lonely...alone. The dark side of the Force cannot sway you."

The sheer fact that she could come out of that without being struck by fear, as Luke experienced, shows that there was no dark taint in her.
Thus, Anakin's lightsaber "called" to her...or rather the FORCE called to her, to show her the lightsaber, to set her upon the path of understanding and using the Force. Prior to the lightsaber calling to her, she really knew nothing of the Force. It was a mystical thing those Jedi's of old used...nothing that was used anymore.

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Who is the Last Jedi? The opening crawl of TFA clearly identify Luke Skywalker as "the last Jedi." We learn in the film that Kylo Ben had destroyed Luke's Jedi Order leaving only Luke who went into hiding. In TFA, the location of Luke Skywalker was the MacGuffin that both sides of the film's conflict were in a race to find. The First Order wanted to kill the last Jedi to make sure he could not train any more Jedi, to fully extinguish the Jedi from the galaxy. The next film takes this concept one step further by being titled The Last Jedi. In TLJ, Luke is again identified as "the last Jedi". Near the end of the film, Luke tells Kylo Ren, "I will not be the last Jedi." I. Will. He did not say, "I am not the last Jedi" or "I am not the only Jedi." He used the first person pronoun with the future tense. He is obviously referring to Rey, who everyone expected would become a Jedi in the next film. [Rian Johnson said that when Leia flew through space, that represented pure Force instinct and no Jedi training.] In TRoS, Rey is seen going through Jedi training and Leia is her master. If Leia is training Rey to be a Jedi, that means Leia is a Jedi. If Leia is a Jedi, that means that Luke never was the last Jedi! Why wasn't the First Order so concerned with finding Leia? Snoke and Kylo would know Leia is a Jedi. The First Order can't destroy all hope of the Jedi returning to the galaxy without also destroying her. Leia being a Jedi (and Luke's ghost having her previously unknown lightsaber) is Abrams flat-out contradicting both prior films in this "trilogy". It is worth noting here that in an early story treatment for the sequel trilogy written by Lucas to sweeten the deal for Disney, Luke was going to be newly training Leia in the present of the story and Luke wouldn't have died until Episode IX. But they were under no obligation to adhere to Lucas' story and didn't, leading them to introduce a retcon in Episode IX that Leia had been trained as a Jedi in the first year after RotJ just so she could train Rey in TRoS. Ever since the 1983 when my kid D&D group homebrewed a Star Wars RPG set after RotJ, I have imagined Leia being Luke's first Jedi student as Abrams did in TRoS. The problem is, the plots of the previous two films were completely based on the premise that Leia wasn't a Jedi.

Leia is NOT a Jedi. She is a Force user, with some extended training. Remember Luke in Return of the Jedi when he goes back to see Yoda before the old master dies? Luke says "I am a Jedi", and Yoda perks up slightly and says "No. Not yet. Vader. You must defeat Vader. Only then." Luke had to essentially earn his Jedi title. Simply being able to use the Force does NOT make a person a Jedi.

So Leia is NOT a Jedi, is NOT a Master. She is teaching Rey what she knows of the Force, which she learned from Luke many years prior (and has maybe practiced since). Leia is a teacher, but not a Master, nor a Jedi. She knows the Force, and can use the Force. Until the vision from the past, you didn't even get the sense she could use a lightsaber. Even if you extrapolate and use the Thrawn Trilogy when she uses the lightsaber as defense, it does not make her a Jedi. By that token, Han would be a Jedi as well. Leia is strong in the Force, and she knows things about the Force, but a Jedi she is not.

Thus, Leia is not the Jedi Luke was referring to. Nor was Rey. You could tell that Rey was a non-standard Force user. She learned rapidly, intuitively. She had a lot of raw power, as though she could turn on a raging faucet and was barely capable of turning it back off. But Rey is not the Jedi either. Rey, however, may be the conduit through which the Force works to create a new Jedi. She does have the Jedi books, so she can use them with another. Or, as evidenced in The Last Jedi, it could be some other person entirely...like the boy with the broom who heard of the exploits of one heroic Luke Skywalker who held off the First Order to allow his sister and the resistance forces to escape. There are others, to be sure, who could grow to know and use the Force, and possibly learn to become a Jedi. But Luke will NOT be the last Jedi.

So there is no "last" Jedi.

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The Last Skywalker. In the third act of TRoS, Palpatine tells Ben Solo that he will be "the last Skywalker." Ben does end up dying and Rey declares herself a "Skywalker" at the end of the film, thus making Ben not the last Skywalker. This is a redirection of the emphasis from the last Jedi to the last Skywalker because the plot of the prior films required Leia to not be a Jedi. And the last Skywalker conveniently puts a period on the newly designated "Skywalker Saga" that this film supposedly completes.

I'm not entirely sure what you are attempting to convey here. There is no "last" Skywalker. With Rey choosing to go by Skywalker, she forever shuns, and ultimately kills Palpatine for good. Now, going forward, if she finds love, has a family, the Skywalker name will continue. And with that continuation, there is an even greater chance that Rey teaches other Force users to become Jedi with the ancient Jedi books she owns. But that is for everyone else to come up with. The "Skywalker" saga (9 movies) is now complete. Skywalker doesn't die, Palpatine is forever dead.

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They were nobody. In TLJ Kylo said, "Rey, I saw who your parents are… Do you want to know the truth about your parents? Or have you always known, and you've just hidden it away? You know the truth. Say it. Say it." Rey said, "They were nobody." Kylo said, "They were filthy junk traders who sold you off for drinking money. They're dead in a paupers' grave in the Jakku desert." When Kylo said, "Or have you always known?" Rey begins to cry. Rey is the one to say "They were nobody." If you watch this scene closely, it and the rest of the movie around it show that Johnson is playing it as Kylo and Rey were telling the truth. Without Skywalker reincarnation, I don't like this version of Rey's background but Johnson is saying Rey had merely been repressing the truth in TFA when she kept saying she had to get back to Jakku. In TFA, Maz Kanata tells Rey that her parents aren't coming back and Rey cries as if she is finally accepting the truth, not as if this was new shocking info out of the blue. The TLJ revelation isn't really contradictory to TFA. In TRoS, Rey's prior background is junked. The only reference to this in TRoS is when Kylo tells her she is Palpatine's granddaughter stating, "I never lied to you. Your parents were no one. They chose to be, to keep you safe." Abrams isn't even trying to fully address the contradiction. He is only addressing the big fan hot button about Rey being no one. It doesn't make any sense that Ochi would have taken Rey's parents' bodies back to Jakku to bury them in a paupers' grave there (and still not find Rey there). This goes way beyond "true from a certain point of view."

Rey cried because she knew her parents were forever gone. To her, they WERE nobody, nobody but a dream of a family, a dream of a mother and father.

Let's look at Rey's parents, an aspect we know about but she doesn't. Either Rey's mother or father was an offspring of Palpatine. I would imagine that it would have happened before he turned into the Emperor. Back when he was Chancellor Palpatine there were rumors he had a concubine. Could that one have sired a child? Also, power attracts certain strumpets. Perhaps one of them sired an offspring. Chances may have been good whomever it was likely hid the fact from Palpatine. At least hid it at first. It also appears, through the flashback, that whomever it was that was Palpatine's child, they did NOT have a touch on the Force. They were, for all intents, just "common" people. A child of a woman who was hiding the fact of the child likely would be someone who wouldn't be a notable individual. With no Force ability (perhaps none they had become aware of), and with only a mother who kept them from Palpatine and away from anyone who might make Palpatine aware, they grew up a common person... a "nobody". One of the countless faces you see on Jedha or Tattooine or Takodana. Or perhaps someone never once on any major planet, thus why Rey ends up on Jakku. Add in the fact that they were slaughtered without putting up any sort of fight, they really WERE nobodies. They were not even resistance fighters, willing to fight when their life was threatened.

Palpatine likely ONLY learned of Rey through Snoke, and ONLY learned she was his granddaughter when she appeared before Snoke. Palpatine could likely sense her then, just as Luke sensed his father on the Executor, or Vader sensed Obi Wan on the Death Star. Only then did Palpatine realize he had a granddaughter and thus a chance to continue his legacy.

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Who are you? What makes you special? In TLJ, Luke repeatedly asked Rey who she was. From Hamill's performance, you can tell TLJ is playing Luke as not really knowing her identity. This emphasizes that Rey is not anyone special that Luke would sense. TRoS indicates that Luke knew she was a Palpatine. If Luke and Leia knew Rey was Palpatine's granddaughter all along, why wouldn't they ever tell her? Luke could've sat her down and said, "Look, you're a Palpatine. I wanted to tell you because I also had an evil ancestor and I found out in the worst possible way, so I don't want that to happen to you." Instead they just keep her in the dark, thereby endangering the entire galaxy by how she might react to the news from somewhere else. Let the past repeat itself? Saying Luke and Leia knew Rey was a Palpatine is really just a way to try to further the illusion that it was planned all along, to help sell this change in premise to fans. Ain't buyin' it.

Luke had closed himself off from the Force. He likely couldn't detect who she was, at least not until he opened himself to the Force when he caught himself as Rey battered him. Only THEN would he have been able to possibly tell who she was. Even then, re-opening himself to the Force, he may not have been able to exactly tell what potential in the Force she was, or that Palpatine's blood was in her. As evidenced by his apparent ignorance of the Force visions she was having, the dyad going on between her and Ben, he had no clue through pretty much most of The Last Jedi as to who she was. Thus his constant questioning of "who are you?"

Leia, I doubt, ever knew about Rey's lineage. Again, not a Jedi. Leia knew the Force, and could use it, but perhaps she couldn't tell about things like "Force family lines", but could only sense those she had a strong bond with. Luke. Han. Even Chewie. And her son, Ben. She likely recognized Rey had strong potential, and was helping her refine it, to control it better, but she didn't know Rey to be a Palpatine as to Rey, she was an orphan with a family she never knew. Nothing to ever make Leia even begin to consider Rey was a Palpatine.

Once Luke realized, he may have appeared as a Force ghost to Leia and told her. Heck, he may have recognized that Rey's raw potential, and with no strong pull to the dark side, told Leia that she was to teach Rey to help control herself, or to have Leia watch Rey to make certain that Rey never started showing signs of the dark side. Either way, they learned Rey was a Palpatine, but not right away. And they also understood that she was not bound by her lineage to be evil, but was strong in the Force. So they didn't hold her lineage against her. Kudos to Luke for understanding that (after his death) and passing that along to Leia.

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All wings report in. In TLJ it seemed that Luke had used part of a wing of his X-Wing as the door to his hut. In TRoS it seems to have been restored to the ship, and underwater to boot. More importantly, if Luke's underwater X-Wing was flyable, then Luke didn't need to Force project himself across the galaxy and sacrifice himself in TLJ. He could have flown to Crait in person!

X-Wings can certainly fly while submerged in water. Even submerged completely underwater. Dagobah anyone? I have a feeling that the muck and silty water of Dagobah that appeared to do nothing to the functionality of the X-Wing in The Empire Strikes Back, kind of indicates that being submerged in a larger body of water would also do nothing to affect the functionality of the craft.

As for Luke's door, I would guess that it actually WASN'T a piece of the X-Wing that he used for the door.

Or there's always the possibility, just as I am sure happened in The Empire Strikes Back, there was some "cut film" time spent on getting the X-Wing ready for flight. Rey didn't hop right in and fly it into space, she (off camera) spent a bit of time cleaning any seaweed off, draining any water that might still be hiding in areas, and picking some fish out of the thrusters just as Luke cleaned snakes out of areas on Dagobah. Just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean it didn't or couldn't happen.

As for why he didn't fly there himself... I'm guessing you didn't learn from Kylo's lesson. Luke knew that if he confronted Kylo Ren directly, the rage from the boy would only feed him with the Dark Side. Luke took that away from him by NOT being there in person. Luke was doing a few things in his lesson to Kylo Ren. He was showing Ben that the Force was stronger than Kylo Ren was capable of understanding. He was showing him that for all his anger, he couldn't win. And he was showing him that even though Kylo thought he could kill his Master, there was never really any contest between them in the ability to control and use the Force. Ben/Kylo was a boy. An angry boy. A bully with a lightsaber. Luke knew how to push Ben's buttons and cause a delay that would save Leia and the resistance. Being there would have changed the whole nature of the encounter. Yes, Luke likely could have defeated them using the Force, and being there in person. But it would have been more difficult, as it would have been an ever-present rage inducer for Kylo Ren, exacerbating the whole endeavor. By taking away that temptation, and by showing Kylo Ren the lesson of what the Force can really do, Luke won.

What Luke didn't realize is how taxing it would be on him. He had likely turned himself off from the Force for so long, that it exhausted him past the point of normal human endurance, but Luke willed himself with the Force to keep going until the lesson was complete. Only then did Luke collapse and expire...becoming one with the Force.

But flying to Crait, although possible, would have made everything more difficult. Thus he didn't do that.

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Let the past be repaired. Ren's helmet and the Skywalker lightsaber being repaired in TRoS makes their breaking in TLJ meaningless in the story. (Kylo Ren's helmet has always looked stupid, and the helmet being repaired looks even worse. He should have just let the past die.)

On that, we can agree. Not sure about the helmet. Perhaps he realized how rash it was to destroy it, and that it reminded him of his grandfather..who he idolized. I think he should have just made a new one rather than repairing the old one. Never understood the reason for that.

And I'm not entirely sure of the lightsaber. Rey obviously took it. It looks like it was "repaired". Perhaps Leia did that, so Rey could have a lightsaber to train with. Whatever lightsaber Leia used in the flashback apparently wasn't around anymore, so something was needed for training. So it was repaired....by someone.

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We have every Skywalker lightsaber part we need. The destruction or repair of Anakin's lightsaber isn't even referenced in TRoS except for maybe a little brown leather-looking strap that is supposedly holding the two halves together. The other explosion damage it was shown to have when Rey held it at the end of TLJ is mysteriously gone like it never happened. It really couldn't even be the same lightsaber – It just looks the same, and maybe has the same crystal and some other parts. What would have made more sense for TRoS is if Rey discovered that one of the ancient Jedi text books had a compartment in it with Luke's green lightsaber that he had just stashed it away in. Maybe Rey would need some components of Anakin's destroyed lightsaber to get Luke's lightsaber in working order again. The blue lightsaber was just a hand-me-down to Luke but the green lightsaber was Luke's actual lightsaber. Rey makes her own (yellow) lightsaber at the end anyway.

I think it would have been quite a bit better if they had used the green lightsaber. It was definitely a missed opportunity. However, you even touched upon the method by which someone (Leia or Rey) who repaired the lightsaber. They used the Jedi texts, which likely had instructions for constructing and repairing a lightsaber. I'm pretty sure there have been multiple instances of lightsabers being sliced in half and the owner or victor deciding to repair the weapon.

The other thing you need to consider is that Rey has a LOT of sentimental value placed on that lightsaber. It was what, in her mind, led her on the journey that put her in touch of the people she grew to know and respect. It opened her mind to the Force. It was what gave her a purpose beyond simply "surviving". So even though it was pulled apart, which caused an explosion, it would have meant enough to her to cause her to pick up the pieces and take them with her. It meant enough that either Rey or Leia, or both of them together, worked to reassemble the lightsaber.

I would bet, based on the explosive nature of the pull-apart, the crystal was damaged or possibly even destroyed. So then there is the strong possibility that either the crystal needed to be replaced, or perhaps there was just enough of it to still make it usable, but perhaps with a shortened lifespan for the weapon. It's a nature of "we don't need to explain every single nuance" that resulted in this not really being fully detailed and explained in the movie.

Considering we see that Rey eventually builds her own lightsaber, as mentioned (yellow), it might be safe to assume that it was Rey who repaired the lightsaber, and recognized it as not being as reliable as it once was, so she then began crafting her own lightsaber. Thus, she had the one that meant something to her, and the one that was her own, from her own hand. That would mean something, though something different, to her.

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Lightspeed tracking? When the Falcon did the lightspeed skipping, it was tracked through hyperspace by tie fighters multiple times. What the what? In the last film the 'lightspeed tracker' was a dedicated system on a single gigantic capital ship. Did the First Order spend the past year miniaturizing the tech and updating all its ships with it, down to every little TIE fighter?!

This is the one major aspect I did NOT like about the movie. There is no logical explanation for the TIE fighters being able to track/follow the Falcon. It makes no sense, nor does the appearing in the middle of canyons or wherever they did in their multiple jumps. It was just a poorly thought out sequence to show a variety of different planets in a (hopefully) exciting chase. They failed.

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"Hi. I'm Poe." "Rey." "I know." The Rey and Poe argument in TRoS is not really poorly scripted or performed, but it still seems a bit off to me considering that these two characters only just met at the end of the last film.

This scene is not ringing a bell to me, so I cannot comment on it.

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Kiss from a Rose. Rose kissing Finn in TLJ has no purpose now that Rose's role has been greatly reduced and there is no hint of a relationship in TRoS. Why did Rose allow Finn to potentially sacrifice himself on a suicide mission in TRoS after risking her own life to save him in TLJ? Rose was an important character in TLJ but hardly had any screen time in TRoS. Abrams created the new role of the Resistance historian guy for a personal friend of his, and he had more lines in the film than Rose. Let the past die?

Okay, this seems like a bit of a nit-pick complaint here. A character had a big part in one movie, and not in another movie. Hmmm.. let's see if this applies to any other characters in Star Wars: Boba Fett (intro and notable scenes in Empire Strikes Back, whacky and quick ending in Return of the Jedi), Jar Jar (Phantom Menace introduction, further involvement in Attack of the Clones, a footnote in Revenge of Sith), Captain Panaka (decent scenes in Phantom Menace, the barest of footnote in Attack of Clones), Maz Kanata (notable scenes in Force Awakens, significantly less in Last Jedi, even less in Rise of Skywalker), General Veers (important scenes in Empire Strikes Back, never again mentioned in another movie).

Characters come and go in Star Wars. Just because they have notable scenes in one movie doesn't mean they will forever be notable. Perhaps, in the time between The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker, Finn and Rose had a significant spat and called it quits. They would just be "friends". So she is there, but there is no spark with Finn anymore. Finn never really struck me as Mr. Romantic, so chances are he screwed up and Rose dumped him. Thus, Finn decides it best to go out on an adventure with people he considers friends. It's as good of reason as any, and makes perfect sense. Yes, it's NOT SHOWN on the movie, because soap operas do not go into space operas. People don't want lover's quarrels to take up time in a movie, so that kind of thing is not shown and may be addressed in a book or something.

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The last remnants of The Last Jedi have been swept away. DJ was an important character in TLJ but he wasn't even indirectly referenced at all in TRoS. And what ever happened to Broom Kid?! It would have been kinda funny if DJ and Broom Kid were shown to be flying in the final battle (in the ship DJ and BB-8 had stolen in TLJ).

So a bit character that was picked up because they were in the same jail cell, and left before the end of the movie, you wanted them to reference for some reason? He was a scoundrel. A First Order sympathizer. Doesn't mean he ever needs to appear or even be mentioned again. See my General Veers point about notable characters that are one and done.

And the kid was a sign. I was to show that you really DON'T need to be part of a family lineage in order to be a Force user. That boy was showing that anyone could potentially be a Force user. It was meant to open the door for other people to use their imaginations, to dream, to think "That kid could be anyone!" Sadly too many people missed that. People detested The Last Jedi for various reasons (some valid, many more not), so the kid and DJ were called silly or useless or not needed.

Also, the hatred for The Last Jedi was significant with many people, so there would be little need to bring back or mention these very minor characters in The Rise of Skywalker. It would have reminded people of that movie, and that is what JJ Abrams was attempting to avoid.

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"The Scavenger." It's dumb that the bad guys all keep referring to Rey as "The Scavenger." Even her grandfather did. She is a Jedi and she hasn't been a scavenger for a while, so come on.

Rey is not a Jedi. She is a Force User. Well, maybe after defeating Palpatine, she could be considered a Jedi finally. I think Palpatine did it in an attempt to taunt Rey, to turn her to the Dark Side, or to get her to "strike him down". What he didn't realize is that her dark side vision showed that she was afraid of anything. She wasn't angry. She wasn't resentful. She may have been sad at being left alone, but she got over that. She could not be tempted to act rashly, but Palpatine did not know that.

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"At the height of their power they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out." Luke had suspected that the Sith planet of Exegol existed, but he and Lando had just given up the search seven year before his Jedi order was destroyed and Luke went into hiding. Shouldn't Luke have given the Republic or Resistance a heads-up that the Sith might rise again? It's all out of the blue in the film, with no hint of it previously in the "trilogy".

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Barf Hideous. In the TFA novelization, it was established that Palpatine did not create Snoke but rather that Palpatine had first sensed Snoke's existence right before he died on the Death Star, predicting that Snoke will be his successor. In this current franchise that claims all sources are equally canon, can we say ‘blatant retcon'? I never liked Snoke and I was glad that he was killed in TLJ. I actually like the idea of Snoke being a (nauseatingly hideous) Dark Side powered frankenstein monster of Palpatine's creation. But did the Emperor create Snoke just to be killed so Kylo Ren would become Supreme Leader? Seems convoluted. Why wouldn't the Emperor just present himself to Kylo instead of making Snoke? We know the real answer is because this "trilogy" wasn't mapped out in advance. Abrams handwaved that Palpatine was the true leader of the First Order like he had been the secret true leader of the Separatists by being Dooku's master. The reveal in TRoS may have been more effective if there had even been a hint of Palpatine as the puppet master earlier in the trilogy.

Snoke was a tool, a puppet, to be used by the Emperor to foster a student in hopes that someone strong with the Force, and turned to the Dark Side, would be a suitable vessel for the Emperor. Or, barring that, a strong arm like Vader was for a while. Whether or not Snoke was "created" by the Emperor, or simply "allowed" to feel as though he was in control while the Emperor likely manipulated Snoke from the shadows (think of the first movie of the sage...the Phantom Menace... Palpatine was a shadow manipulator then as well). Should he have been alluded to in previous movies? Perhaps. But perhaps not. A shadowy figure in a cloak would be a dead giveaway if Snoke was shown speaking to it. Or perhaps Snoke didn't even KNOW he was being manipulated. The Emperor was quite a bit more powerful in the Dark Side than Snoke was. Snoke couldn't even see the "good" in Kylo Ren to see his own death. Could it be that the Dark Side had pulled a veil over his eyes? Hmmm.. food for thought. If the Emperor WAS manipulating Snoke like a puppet, Snoke likely did not know it. The Emperor allowed him to see things, and veiled other things.

Also, an earlier hint of someone more powerful that Snoke would have made even MORE people scream about how much of a rip off of the Empire Strikes Back the movie The Last Jedi was. Having a shadowy figure talking to Snoke would have been just like the communication room when Vader spoke with the Emperor in Empire Strikes Back. It was better NOT to show sign of the Emperor. So, planned or not, it was more of a "OMG!" moment than a "I knew it since last movie, and this is just like Return of the Jedi now!".

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Don’t call it a comeback. I've been here for years. When the Resistance leaders receive confirmation of Palpatine's return, Poe said, " So Palpatine’s been out there all the time, pulling the strings" to which Leia replied, "Always, in the shadows from the very beginning." How the hell do they know that?! And for Leia you can't say it's the Force, because Leia had the Force before this film. There was no hint Palpatine was even still alive before this movie. This dialogue was contrived purely to deliver plot information about the change in premise that Palpatine's return brings. And due to the sad reality of Carrie Fisher's passing, all of Leia's dialogue in this film was unused dialogue from the filming of TFA so we know Leia's line was clearly referring to Snoke originally, not Palpatine who just got shoehorned into the end of this trilogy.

A person could be cynical and say that the line was meant for Snoke. A person could say the dialogue was contrived, but it could also be interpreted as a call back all the way to the Phantom Menace, when Palpatine was manipulating things to bring him into power, and manipulating Anakin to turn him to the Dark Side. And now manipulating Snoke to not only be a scapegoat, a "side show" to distract the Republic and Resistance from noticing the build-up that the Emperor was obviously planning for a few years.

I am one of those people who actually really enjoyed the concept of the Emperor being back. It was akin to Dark Empire, another piece of Star Wars that I enjoyed quite a bit. There were actually several things in Dark Empire which were used in the sequel trilogy. The Force Projection that Luke used in The Last Jedi was borrowed from Dark Empire. The "reborn" Emperor was from Dark Empire. The dark fleet was from Dark Empire (but in Dark Empire there was only ONE super ship with a planet killing ability, but still a very sizable fleet that was used by the Emperor, along with World Devastators). Luke's assurance in using the Force was in Dark Empire. Think of the line that was used in Dark Empire, and used originally in Empire Strikes Back, "Size matters not". That was on full display when Luke went out against the AT-M6s on Crait.

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"It's another Death Star." So Palpatine was behind the scene pulling the strings on Snoke and controlling the First Order through him. If Palpatine's secret Sith planet had hundreds of fully crewed death stars, why would Palpatine even have the First Order go through the trouble of transforming a planet into the Starkiller weapon. It's outrageous that this movie even makes me say this, but the Sith Eternal cult alone made the First Order completely obsolete.

The reason is to create a distraction. If Palpatine was funnelling resources to build all of those planet-killing Star Destroyers, he would need to have the Republic looking elsewhere, to be distracted by other things. So the Starkiller Base was created, and the FIRST target was the head of the Republic. With the head cut off, and the First Order moving in on territories, no one would be paying attention to the growing strength of the Emperor and his fleet. The Sith Cult likely was the appendage by which the Emperor acquired his crews, secured his resources and workers, and kept it all securely under wraps. The Emperor was notorious for using others to do his work for him while he used the Dark Side to cast veils over things and pull strings when they needed pulling...when the Sith Cult couldn't get it done secretly enough. Do you think the Sith Cult could have acquired all of that stuff and all of the crew if the Republic was still fully functioning and there was no significant distraction somewhere else?

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Han and Lando. Why do Rey and Finn only know Han Solo by his name and not his appearance, but they know who Lando is as soon as they see him? In the past year, did Leia require them to go through a Resistance course on recognizing all the heroes of the rebellion? It just seems odd.

Rey and Finn spent time with Han. I'm sure Han likely mentioned Lando, perhaps even verified that "yes", Lando did fly the Falcon. Heck, even Chewie could have mentioned it! They did spend more than a little time with them and the topic of "Was all of that real?" DID come up, thus Han's "It's real. All of it." I'm guessing the name Lando, and possibly even his appearance, would have been discovered by the heroes prior to them meeting him.

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The last star war. When the Sith dagger translation directs them to a moon in the Endor System, Finn notes that is "where the last war ended." Um, no. The last war ended in the Jakku system. In TFA, Finn literally flew around and inside of wreckage from the final battle of that war. Abrams invented the Battle of Jakku as where the last war ended, so why can't he even maintain continuity with his own prior SW film?

Finn considered the "last war ending" on the spot where the Emperor and Vader supposedly died, and the Empire as it was known was shattered. I'm pretty sure you probably never read the Aftermath books, or maybe didn't like the Aftermath books, but in them it is explained that Jakku is where the last vestiges of the Empire were extinguished. But it also explains that is also when the first seeds of the First Order were formed. Kids became the first to be indoctrinated into the First Order. Finn was likely not even born by the time the last vestiges of the Empire were extinguished, so to him the destruction of the 2nd Death Star and the "death" of the Emperor and Vader WAS the end of the last war. I'm sure "galactic history" is probably not a highly regarded class in First Order training of Stormtroopers. So his knowledge is somewhat lacking on specifics.

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"Why does everyone wanna go back to Jakku?" Ochi of Bestoon was a Sith loyalist who served Palpatine in the years he spent on Exegol. It was his mission to find Rey and bring her to Palpatine. On his ship, Rey's parents state that Rey is no longer on Jakku and that he'll never find her, but this is the ship Rey watched taking off as she was left on Jakku with Unkar Plutt. Why would Rey's parents say she is no longer on Jakku if she actually was there? Isn't that giving Ochi a hint of where to look? If Ochi found Rey's parents on Jakku, couldn't he have looked harder for an abandoned girl there? Ochi left Jakku with Rey parents as Rey watched the ship flying away, so he must have just missed her.

So Rey's parents lied to protect her. Or perhaps their instructions to Unkar Plutt was to put her on another ship leaving the planet, but he had other ideas. Either way, it was either a lie or a true belief of what they said, in an attempt to cast doubt in the mind of Ochi. And do we REALLY know the ship flying away contained Rey's parents? Or did she just remember a ship flying away as she learned her parents were not coming back, and associated that ship with them leaving. Whatever the case, Ochi never did find Rey, and the movies still happened as they did.

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A trilogy of Huxes, and Pryde. General Hux has a different role in each film of the "trilogy". In the first film, Abrams portrays him dramatically as zealot for the First Order who hates the Republic and Resistance with a burning passion. He teared up at the display of the super-weapon's power after his super evil bad guy speech on the Starkiller base. Let the past die… In TLJ, "Hugs" became the brunt of jokes, and slapstick comedy as Snoke abused him. Let the past die… In TRoS, Hux is now a traitor to the First Order and actually helps the Resistance just for something petty, just wanting Kylo Ren to lose. Really?? Since TFA, Kylo has been able to read minds, but he can't read that Hux is a traitor?? And then to top it off, in the middle of the film Hux is killed off by General Pryde, an older and more competent First Order officer, just because he is a former Imperial officer with ties to Palpatine. TRoS makes you wonder how Hux ever outranked Pryde before TRoS? [I read online that the purpose of Pryde in the film is to misdirect the audience into thinking he was the FO traitor (because he was a new character) so there would be more surprise at the reveal of it being Hux. That didn't work on me because I never once suspected Pryde (or anyone in particular) of being the traitor. That could have been because I wasn't engaged by the story enough to really even care who the FO traitor was.]

The General Pryde character was fleshed out poorly in the movie. For one, the supposed "misdirection" only works if there is an establishment of the character's inability to do things correctly. None of that was established. Likewise, the change of Hux from fanatic to turncoat (or enemy of my enemy is my ally) was never really given much credence. There was a little bit of animosity between Hux and Kylo Ren, and perhaps that was accentuated when Kylo Ren elevated himself to Supreme Leader. But prior to that, it was more of Hux getting praise and Kylo Ren getting belittled by Snoke, rather than the other way around.

Hux was one who was raised from childhood to serve the First Order. Thus he had fanatical ideals and an over-eager desire to become powerful in rank or stature. When he finds that the idea of him ever getting higher in the First Order is now gone, now that Kylo Ren is Supreme Leader, he obviously had misgivings about that. What would drive him to give secrets away to the Resistance is kind of beyond me. Yes, he was fanatical, but it was a fanaticism of killing his enemies, not in disgracing rivals. So this is one where I may be able to see WHY he might have harbored strong resentment towards Kylo Ren, I still cannot wrap my head around his actions of trying to sabotage the First Order to disgrace Kylo Ren.

So both aspects are definitely a bit on the shaky side in terms of rationalizing them. Pryde would not have been an Imperial stooge in the First Order, because the First Order didn't do that sort of thing. They shunned the Imperials, that is why Jakku happened. Hux would not have hindered the First Order to disgrace Kylo Ren. Hux may have wanted Kylo Ren dead so he himself would become Supreme Leader, but he wouldn't sacrifice the power of the First Order simply to disgrace a man.

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Meet the new boss. TFA introduced the First Order and its three villain leaders: Snoke, Kylo Ren, Hux. TLJ killed off Snoke, and Ren became the new First Order Supreme Leader. Then right at the beginning of TRoS, Ren loses his main villain status to Palpatine, and Palpatine says that he was behind Snoke. Hux helps the Resistance throughout the film until getting killed off in the middle of it, and Kylo Ben turns good in the middle of it. A new First Order character takes charge of the FO in the vacuum left by Hux and Kylo Ren. In TRoS, the villainous First Order is just conveniently subsumed by the new Final Order, giving this "trilogy" a villainous bait and switch just to suit TRoS. And if Kennedy had really always planned on Palpatine appearing in Episode IX, then General Pryde would have been in TFA and Palpatine's return would have been hinted at too. At the end of TRoS, it is worth noting that the miraculous destruction of the Sith Eternal forces on Exegol inspires the rest of the galaxy to rise up against the First Order. So not only is the First Order-Republic war that started in TFA not shown at all in TRoS, the war is resolved in one sentence of dialogue.

A lot of assumptions that everything should have been hinted or shown in prior movies if they were planning it all along. Was it hinted that Luke and Leia were brother and sister before Return of the Jedi? Was it hinted Luke was Vader's son in Star Wars? Was it hinted that a second death star was being built in either Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back?

Obviously not everything is always hinted at nor shown prior to them appearing in later films!

Pryde taking over the First Order. The Emperor pulling the strings on Snoke. The Final Order having power. None of them needed to be hinted at in prior movies. Kylo Ren turning back to Ben Solo was certainly hinted at many times in the prior two movies. Kylo's hesitation and lack of attacking his mother was a sign there was still good in him. The communication and interaction between him and Rey hinted some more at it. Snoke's admonishment at Kylo's weakness was more hints at it. It was pretty much a foregone conclusion that Kylo Ren would cease to be and Ben Solo would become good again. Redemption, just as it happened with Vader...whom Kylo Ren idolized... was just another tie in to the past, and how it never really dies.

The destruction of the Emperor's forces may have sparked the rest of the galaxy to realize that the First Order, just like the "reborn" Emperor, were not undefeatable. They had taken out a massive fleet, and now had the drive and determination to finish the job against the First Order. Reference back to those Aftermath books, and Mon Mothma had pushed for the demilitarization of the Republic, so that only individual planets had forces, but the Republic itself did not have one cohesive force so it would never again be a potential tool for someone to wrest control of and turn on the Republic to make it an Empire again. So there was no Republic fleet. No one Admiral in control of it all. It was "this planet's forces", and "that planet's forces" and so on. So getting them to all act as one was something that no one had really attempted to do. The resolution of the First Order war in one sentence was likely done to make the movie probably 2 hours shorter.

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The First Order is so, like, last year. What's with Abram's two evil empire names? The New Order was the ideology of Palpatine's Galactic Empire. What is the First Order the first at? The first empire with the word "Order" in its name in the Unknown Regions? The name would have made some sense if it had actually existed before the Galactic Empire, but it didn't. Palpatine's Sith planet apparently existed as a backup power base during the Galactic Empire. Palpatine's Sith empire was revealed in TRoS and it took control of the First Order, with Palpatine calling it the Final Order. How silly. Palpatine implies that he named the First Order but it make no sense that Palpatine would choose that name. It seems like Abram's real meanings behind the two empire names are "the bad guys of my first Star Wars film" and "the bad guys of my final Star Wars film".

No, the First Order isn't named because it was the first bad guys of JJ Abrams first movie. The name's meaning is given in the third Aftermath book. In summary, the group that made it to the Unknown Regions, the group that did not want to be associated with the Empire, had the first order of business to be to rebuild, but to DO IT RIGHT! So the First Order was the redo of the Empire, but "done correctly, without corruption, without bloat". Their First Order was supposedly, at least in their minds, BETTER than the Empire...the New Order.

The Emperor's boast about the Final Order was the intent by him to have a legacy government. He would live on, his Empire would live on, and it would be the final form of government in the galaxy, never to be usurped by another form. Thus, the "Final" Order. Think of it akin to Hitler thinking the Third Reich would last a thousand years. The Emperor thought his would be the final form of government, forever more.

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The knights of lame. The previous two films mention the Knights of Ren and we finally get to see them in final episode of this "trilogy". But still I ask, who are they? They didn't get much screen time in TRoS and we didn't get any backstory. Are they Luke's former students who joined Kylo Ben? Are they even Force-sensitive? [The Visual Dictionary says they are, but to a stunted degree like Inquisitors.] At some point during the film they changed allegiances to Palpatine offscreen, unless they were always secretly loyal to Palpatine (which was never established). Who knows? They just stand there watching Kylo watch his Ren helmet being reforged, and there is a really silly moving shot of the six of them just standing on top of a mesa in the dessert looking out in different directions, as if they were a metal band filming an MTV video. The only things they really do in the film are capturing Chewie (without a fight) and "Boba Fetting" Ochi's ship in an asteroid field to track the heroes. The knights were conveniently forgotten about multiple times when Kylo Ren could have used their help. They always appear together as a group and there could be two or six of them – In the film it never even matters how many there are. They have no speaking lines in the film and no individual identities except for differing costumes and weapons. Their appearances are uninteresting and seems to be based on rejected character designs for Kylo Ren. They need red lightsabers. Even stupid gimmick lightsabers might have been better than just normal melee weapons and a couple blasters. Ben takes them out quickly on Exegol. Boooring. [The Visual Dictionary says Unknown Regions folklore warns of marauders… zzzzzz…]

Yeah, the Knights of Ren were rather unimpressive. Think of them as the Boba Fett of the sequel trilogy. They look cool, but besides being viewed a few times, they never really do much before they die in lackluster manner. I'm sure there will be books or some such that expand upon them, but I don't think they were ever supposed to be much more than window dressing, dream sequence caricatures. Possibly they could be a missed opportunity, but no more than a variety of other things from the Original Trilogy were (which were later expanded by books). Sometimes people's desire to have everything spelled out in the movies just baffles me. Why must everything be explained in the movies? They never were in the Original Trilogy. They never were in the Prequel Trilogy. Yet people seem to want that in the Sequel Trilogy.

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"You were a spice runner?" Poe's newly revealed scoundrel background actually helps explain why he (instead of Finn) had been the one that came up with the idea to contact Maz in TLJ, but it's main purpose in TRoS is his underworld droidsmith contact needed for the Threepio Sith translation issue. Though canon had already established that Poe was a New Republic pilot before going to the Resistance, in TRoS we learn that he also was a spice runner on Kijimi with Zorii Bliss and the rest of her crew. When did Poe have time to do that exactly? Zorii says he left spice running to go to the Resistance, not the New Republic. So maybe he was a smuggler during his time as a New Republic pilot, but just on the side? And we don't learn why Poe gave up being a spice runner. [There is an upcoming youth novel that will show Poe became a spice runner in his teens, before he became a New Republic pilot.] In TRoS there is an odd attempt by Zorii Bliss to lure Poe back to the ‘spice side' which he rejects because he "can't give up on this war." Poe's scoundrel characterization is dramatically limp in TRoS. The only thing it does besides the droidsmith plot point is that Poe's refusal to return to being a scoundrel again must be what inspired Zorii Bliss to later join the Battle of Exegol, which would be more important if anyone really cared about Zorii Bliss. At least we got to see Babu Frik one more time out of that.

A lot of people were various things before they were other things. I was a landscaper. But before that I was a Miner. Poe could have joined the New Republic (a loose term since the New Republic didn't have a centralized fleet) by joining one of the planetary defense forces just a few short weeks before Leia decided to break from the New Republic and become the Resistance. He decided that he liked that idea much more than being a part of something that wasn't really unified except in name (the New Republic), so he followed Leia and joined the Resistance. Thus, he did both, but perhaps one for not very long. Likewise, he could have been an avid "flyboy" type teen, and in his late teen years and early 20s, he followed the rather attractive Zorii Bliss and was a spice runner. He may have done that for 3-4 years...a potentially "long time" for a spice runner, before taking the opportunity to get out and possibly join the New Republic to avoid being jailed for an extended amount of time on spice running charges. Or maybe he got out and was listless for a year or two, and in a fit of hunger from lack of funds to eat, and a desire to still fly, he went to the local New Republic office and signed up to be a pilot...only then realizing that he would be relegated to planetary defense duties. When the opportunity came to get away from the rather boring planetary defense duties, he took it and joined the Resistance. What better way to see more of the galaxy that with one of the heroes of the Galactic War.

Poe was impulsive, brash, cocky, and not really what one would consider "stable" in terms of allegiance. Thus the whole "we're taking control of the ship" bit in The Last Jedi. He's more of a "small group" sort of pilot, one who flew by the seat of his pants. That is, like a spice runner would. You took the chance as a spice runner, otherwise you lost your load or your life. Everything Poe ever did in the Sequel Trilogy matches that aspect of his character. He flew "in control", but recklessly. He bucked command because it never really applied to him before being part of a spice running group. He was callous about others he didn't know, and expected them to do as he would do in order to stay alive, but not realizing the nature of "orders" coming from him based on his rank. He really only trusted and cared about a small group that he kept "close" to him. A group akin to a spice running group. A small group who was just as capable as he was at surviving, but skilled in different aspects that helped the small group to become one gelled group capable of tackling any task.

Leia was in the mindset of the Rebel Alliance, where everyone was focused on defeating the bad guys..the Empire. That mindset was no more. The Resistance didn't have that sort of focus. But Leia still operated like it did, and still treated others as they were in the Rebel Alliance. Thus good pilots got promoted based on their success at missions. Poe was very good at missions with flying, thus he got promoted in the Resistance. But he was not really a leader, because he had the mentality of working in a spice running group. Very few people probably listened to him in the spice runners unless it was in relation to flying. Beyond that, other spice runners in his group probably had their own specialties, their own expertise. No one took his "orders" and did them because he said so. But in the Resistance, with ranks, when he became Commander, he could order whole squadrons to attack, and they would because he ordered them to. But those same people didn't have the same mindset that Poe did, or the same skillset as Poe. So those people died and Poe didn't. By being promoted by Leia, like the Rebel Alliance did during the Galactic War (think of Commander Skywalker and Captain Solo in Empire Strikes Back), Poe was forced into a position he wasn't familiar. People did what he "ordered" because of his rank, but they didn't have his skill or mentality, so others died doing what he ordered...even though he kind of expected them to have the same desire to "stay alive or die" that he did in order to get things done. Thus his actions seemed very reckless and wasteful to someone like Leia, who demoted him. He seemed hot headed and impulsive by Holdo, so she didn't explain or even hint at things to Poe...much to her chagrin.

So Poe was likely many things, even over just several years that took us to The Force Awaken and The Last Jedi.

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The wisdom of Maz. In TFA, Maz Kanata was a funny and annoying character. The idea of old Han having a friend who was a 1000 year-old goggled Force-sensitive alien and former pirate queen who ran a bar and way house for pirates and smugglers is rich. But Maz, a scoundrel, hypocritically told Han that he had to go back to the Resistance cause. In TLJ the absurdity was cranked up for laughs as she was in a 'union dispute' blaster fight, but she helped the Resistance with some information. Well, the good news is that Maz finally stopped being a hypocrite and outright joined the Resistance at some point in between TLJ and TRoS. The bad news is, her role in TRoS isn't funny and she instead just becomes a Yoda wannabe, only providing trite little narrations/commentaries on the plot. Maz looks creepy this time around since she was realized with a practical animatronic model instead of CG, and Maz sat out the final battle just to stand there and watch Leia's deceased body. Zorii Bliss picks up the role of TFA-Maz by being a scoundrel who encourages Poe to not give up on his cause (after the odd attempt to pull him back into the criminal life). At least Zorii does help the cause later in the same movie, but it's dramatically flat. Why does Zorii say "Leia never gave up" in the final battle? The scoundrel who just joined the cause knows about Leia's death and speaks about her character to Poe? Was it just because Maz was not there to say it?

Yeah, Maz was somewhat akin to Lando-type character, and was notably underused in The Rise of Skywalker. The lines that Zorii uses that says "Leia never gave up", could have meant a couple things. One, perhaps off-camera, things were mentioned that Leia was dead, but the Resistance carried on. Or perhaps she was speaking of Leia in the more overall sense. Leia was the daughter of an Alderaanian Senator, who became a Rebel against the Galactic Empire. That Rebel eventually helped lead to the end of the Empire. Then Leia helped found the New Republic. When the New Republic failed to provide a strong foundation of security, Leia broke away to form the Resistance. All of that is a pretty strong definition of "never giving up". So what Zorii said was true, from a certain point of view. Wink

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The Hermit has people skills. In TLJ Leia got zero response to her distress call on Crait calling for aid against the First Order which was currently engaged in an offscreen galactic war with the Republic, but Luke's sacrifice inspired the galaxy, right? No. TRoS takes place a year later and the galaxy is back to being afraid of the First Order and not standing up to them. That is a slap in the face to the life and sacrifice of Luke in TLJ! Then Lando convinces countless allies to ride to the Resistance's rescue at an almost unreachable Sith stronghold, against far more impossible odds: a reborn Palpatine and a massive Sith fleet of death stars. How did Lando convince them to help when Leia's desperate plea for help and Luke's sacrifice couldn't? I now Lando is smooth but shouldn't the galaxy be more afraid of Palpatine since he came back from the dead? The galaxy's like, "First Order takeover, eh what are ya gonna do?" and then they are like, "Palpatine's back with hundreds of death stars? Aw hell no! Let's go find the hidden Sith cult planet and get 'em!"

Lando definitely had some mad people skills! But another thing that Lando had was knowledge of how individual entities or groups worked. Heck, he used to run Cloud City...I think he understands the administrative and bureaucratic nuances of things like that. Plus, Lando could talk a person out of their last credit if he had to.

The distress signal by Leia...yeah, that fell on deaf ears. But think of it...it's easier to ignore someone from a voice message than ignoring them face to face. A voice message you can delete, and never have to think of it again. Plus, you don't have to go through the effort of doing that nasty fighting part. So you delete the message and pretend it never happened. But you get a smooth talker like Lando right in your face, it's going to be a lot harder to say no.

Luke's sacrifice a slap in the face?

The Resistance didn't die, did it?
You have to remember that prior to him "being found", Luke had been gone for a few years. To a good portion of the galaxy, Luke was already "dead", because he was no longer around and nobody knew where he went. So even word of him "appearing" and holding off the First Order to allow the Resistance to escape likely wouldn't ignite a galaxy to act. But it would shore up the hopeless Resistance who had lost probably 95% of their force in the Last Jedi. And to some select few, it likely DID spark action in them. Lando might not have been able to get to every planet he needed to in order to round up all of those ships, even in the Falcon. But he could have contacted certain people who may have had their passion inflamed by Luke's final stand, and they were able to get others to finally take action at Lando's insistence. Those who couldn't probably got a personal visit from Lando, who would convince others that he was right and they needed to act now.
I also highly doubt Lando went around mentioning Sith Cult and Palpatine and hundreds of death stars. He probably DID mention a big fleet that could subjugate a large part of the galaxy if not dealt with. He probably mentioned something about "you wanna live under a boot of the Empire again? Thought not." Lando could talk circles around people. They fairly accurately portrayed him in the Han Solo movie. And it showed by his ability to get people to show up at the dramatically appropriate time.

..........................

Perhaps you can tell by my responses that while I generally enjoyed the film The Rise of Skywalker, I did not think it entirely infallible. Yes, they didn't explain everything in the movie. Guess what, neither did Lucas. But there was decades of other people expanding on every little thing in Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi. People tend to forget that. Likewise, I also found some faults with The Rise of Skywalker. Some things, even I couldn't rationally explain away. I downright detested the "hyperspace skipping". However, all in all, I found the movie more enjoyable, and I didn't expect, nor was let-down, by things NOT being in the movie.

TauntaunScout
Line Captain

Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 970

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:42 pm Post subject:

Even though I think it was a bad choice to make the movies not about Luke and Leia, and dumb to kill of Luke in the 2nd movie I think he had a really awesome death scene for a movie. Since my kids keep saying "No, we wanna watch a Kylo Ren one" when I try to pick a SW thing to watch, I am going to wind up owning The Last Jedi. The Rise of Skywalker honestly seems like a great plot for some anime series, about a different universe. It just doesn't fit the "Star Wars aesthetic" to me. I was aghast about the use of all the side-plots, the apparent speed of hyperspace of TLJ (and the endless use of plot fiats and MacGuffins by both TFA and TLJ) but TROS outdid both of them combined, in these regards. That can work in TV but not the movies.

Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:41 am Post subject: Re: The Rise of Skywalker and THE DISNEY FILM TRIO

Grimace wrote:

Okay, here is my rebuttal to the "Rise of Skywalker and the Disney Film Trio" post.

Wow! Thanks for responding to my TRoS and the "sequel trilogy" issues post. It is good to have so much complimentary content of the film here.

As I stated in the OP, I have never suggested any other films don't have issues. They do. No films are perfect, not even ANH. But the "what about" defense is a defection. In this thread we are talking about the problems of TRoS both internally and how it fits with other films. And as I stated in the OP, some of these were admittedly only minor nitpicks. I just decided to throw them all in because one of the overall conclusion points is the shear total number of issues of the film. Throwing out the little ones don't change the big ones but it might fail to show the full scope of the failure of this movie on so many different levels. I actually enjoy coming up with solutions to issues with the CT, the PT, and the two Disney anthology films. The number of issues that needs resolved with all of those do not compare with the massively higher number of issues TRoS has. To me, "solving" TRoS is an impossible task, and the effort just wouldn't be worth trouble for me based on how I feel about the film (one of my bottom two SW films of the 11).

Ultimately, I have spent so much time over the years harping against others film bashing that I felt I really had to present my case in full to not appear as just another Typical Disgruntled Fanboy #1138. I created this thread to show and discuss legitimate critique of TRoS, not to just whine and cry about how Star War is ruined, wah boo hoo.

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I think this pretty much works for TLJ alone, but not for TRoS which is the movie TLJ is being compared to. Not only was it shown in TRoS that Rey has a dark side, it would be boring if she didn't. She has to overcome some trial to become a Jedi.

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Thus, Anakin's lightsaber "called" to her...or rather the FORCE called to her, to show her the lightsaber, to set her upon the path of understanding and using the Force. Prior to the lightsaber calling to her, she really knew nothing of the Force. It was a mystical thing those Jedi's of old used...nothing that was used anymore.

"That lightsaber was Luke's. And his father's before him. And now, it calls to you... I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes. Feel it. The light. It's always been there. It will guide you... The saber. Take it."

I'm not one of those fans who think that characters never make incorrect in-universe statements, but the story makes the most sense if Maz knows what she is talking about here, and I do not get your interpretation for that. There is some special connection between the lightsaber itself and Rey. In TFA there are many things about Rey that refer to Anakin Skywalker. I won't list them all but one specifically connected to the lightsaber in the vision itself was seeing the hallway in Cloud City - It is a near recreation of a shot in TESB except Rey is standing exactly in Vader's place as he was looking at Luke holding Anakin's lightsaber. So I think there is a lot of evidence that in TFA Abrams intentionally suggested Rey was a Skywalker in some way but ultimately left her true identity in the mystery box and didn't really care because it would be up to someone else to open the box, and then later when he ended up being the one, he went a different direction. This Disney trio wasn't plotted out in advance. Abrams has admitted that when he sat down to decide Rey's identity when he was writing TRoS, he went with an old standby he has gone with before - Imagine the worst possible outcome and give that to the character. In a film with Palpatine as the big baddie, a die hard TESB fan went with "I am your grandfather" for Rey, and the earlier films be damned because they already made their money.

There was a possible solution to the mystery of Rey's identity that would have made sense with respect to both the TFA and TLJ visions, and wouldn't have usurped Anakin's original accomplishment of destroying Palpatine (and role in the Prophecy): Make Rey the reincarnation of Anakin Skywalker. All the symbolism in TFA would make sense, and all the Reys in a circle in her TLJ vision would represent his/her many incarnations leading up to a final one. Anakin would still be the one to destroy the Sith. But instead, Abrams when with what he feels works for TRoS, at the expense of the logic and drama of prior films in this series.

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More than TRoS, you seem to be defending TLJ (which I'm sure you've had to do a lot over the past couple years). First off, it was overtly officially stated out-of-universe that Luke was the "last Jedi" in TFA, as identified in the TFA opening crawl, and that Luke was the last Jedi of TLJ until the end. Luke was the last Jedi left after Kylo Ben killed all the rest, and Luke went to Ach-To to die, which would have killed off all the Jedi. The last Jedi is Rey as of the end of TRoS because she is the only one.

And ok, I get what you are saying about Leia being an almost-Jedi and there being non-Jedi Force users, but I think you are getting into semantics and not totally addressing my point. In TFA and TLJ, Snoke is obsessed with finding and killing specifically Luke because that is what he believed would destroy the Jedi Order. Snoke could be wrong, but as I stated, Kylo and Snoke (and thus Palpatine) would know Leia's level of training and that she was capable of training more Jedi. The last Jedi wasn't just fancy title - It specifically referred to who had to be killed to prevent the Jedi Order from returning. Kylo had a motivation to not kill Leia, but Snoke (and Palpatine) wouldn't. In TRoS, Rey was said to be getting Jedi training from Leia, not general Force-user training. I feel it is obvious that Abrams felt that to sell Rey as becoming a Jedi to fans, we had to see Rey being trained and Abrams wouldn't have killed Luke off before that. By the way, Rian Johnson said that Leia never got any Jedi training, that her flying through space was pure Force instinct. So for Rey's training to be "Jedi" training, Abrams had to retcon Leia as actually having Jedi training even though that jenga piece knocks down the premise of the prior two films.

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Whill wrote:

The Last Skywalker...

This was really just a rider to the last point, that I decided to break off into its own. TRoS doesn't mention the phrase "the last Jedi" which was key to the last two films. In TFA and TLJ, Luke was the last Jedi, then there were no Jedi, then in this film Rey became a Jedi. You seemed to have missed some dialogue that was in TRoS. Palpatine told Ben that he would be the "last Skywalker". Think about it. Shmi, Anakin, Luke, and Leia were all dead. Ben was the last of Shmi and Anakin's lineage. After Leia died, Ben was the last skywalker. After Ben died, there were no Skywalkers until Rey declared herself one at the end. Do you see how this matches the pattern of the "last Jedi"? One, then zero, then a different one. What I was trying to convey is Abrams is switching the emphasis of the importance of "last Jedi" to the "last Skywalker" for two reasons. To shift attention away from the retcon of Leia now being an almost-Jedi, and that the "last Skywalker" is better for branding as this film is being sold as "the conclusion to the Skywalker Saga". It's a minor sub-point, but I think it is another symptom of the disgusting fact that Kennedy and Abrams were more concerned with box office gross than making a cohesive film, trilogy, and saga.

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Like many other details that weren't in the film, it has since been revealed outside the film that Rey's father was the son of Palpatine.

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I would imagine that it would have happened before he turned into the Emperor. Back when he was Chancellor Palpatine there were rumors he had a concubine.

Timeline wise, Rey's father was definitely born during the time of the Empire. He was shown in a Force flashback in TRoS and there is no way he was old enough to have been born back when Palpatine was still Supreme Chancellor. Yes, it is certainly possible the Emperor had a concubine or 20.

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Could that one have sired a child? Also, power attracts certain strumpets. Perhaps one of them sired an offspring. Chances may have been good whomever it was likely hid the fact from Palpatine. At least hid it at first. It also appears, through the flashback, that whomever it was that was Palpatine's child, they did NOT have a touch on the Force. They were, for all intents, just "common" people. A child of a woman who was hiding the fact of the child likely would be someone who wouldn't be a notable individual. With no Force ability (perhaps none they had become aware of), and with only a mother who kept them from Palpatine and away from anyone who might make Palpatine aware, they grew up a common person... a "nobody". One of the countless faces you see on Jedha or Tattooine or Takodana. Or perhaps someone never once on any major planet, thus why Rey ends up on Jakku. Add in the fact that they were slaughtered without putting up any sort of fight, they really WERE nobodies. They were not even resistance fighters, willing to fight when their life was threatened.

Palpatine likely ONLY learned of Rey through Snoke, and ONLY learned she was his granddaughter when she appeared before Snoke. Palpatine could likely sense her then, just as Luke sensed his father on the Executor, or Vader sensed Obi Wan on the Death Star. Only then did Palpatine realize he had a granddaughter and thus a chance to continue his legacy.

OK, but you seem to be doing the same thing that Abrams did in the film, glazing over all of the dialogue and story beats of TLJ. There was more to it than just, "They were nobody." I don't disagree with that part. As I stated, "It doesn't make any sense that Ochi would have taken Rey's parents' bodies back to Jakku to bury them in a paupers' grave there (and still not find Rey while there)." In TLJ Johnson, Driver, and Ridley are playing it 100% as Kylo is telling a truth that Rey knew but just hadn't accepted. A lot of fans didn't like it, but it didn't actually contradict TFA (See, I can defend TLJ). TRoS junked it and contradicts TLJ though. Anything else I could say here would just be rehashing what I already said.

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OK, but history repeats itself. Sure, maybe Luke would eventually understand the wisdom of Yoda and Obi-Wan choosing not to tell him about his father before they thought he was ready, but I doubt that Yoda and Obi-Wan would think that the outcome of Luke finding out from Vader was a good thing after all. I think maybe all three of them might think, 'Hmm, maybe we shouldn't do that this time.'

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X-Wings can certainly fly while submerged in water. Even submerged completely underwater. Dagobah anyone?

This is a tangent, but no, X-wings cannot fly while submerged. They do not fly underwater. They are not submarines. Luke's X-wing flew after being submerged, but it didn't even fly under its own power out of the water to the land. In both TESB and TRoS, it was lifted out with the Force. Then it flew.

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I have a feeling that the muck and silty water of Dagobah that appeared to do nothing to the functionality of the X-Wing in The Empire Strikes Back, kind of indicates that being submerged in a larger body of water would also do nothing to affect the functionality of the craft.

I wasn't saying the ship shouldn't have still been flyable after being submerged. I was incredulous that the wing got repaired underwater by a ghost.

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As for Luke's door, I would guess that it actually WASN'T a piece of the X-Wing that he used for the door.

Well, from a real world film production perspective, it was intentionally made to look like it came from an X-wing wing. From an in-universe perspective, it was explicitly stated in the TLJ Visual Dictionary that the door was part of an X-wing wing. That's canon. So it was a retcon, but then again in Abram's magical Force world, it certainly could have been the wing that Luke's ghost magically repaired.

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Or there's always the possibility, just as I am sure happened in The Empire Strikes Back, there was some "cut film" time spent on getting the X-Wing ready for flight. Rey didn't hop right in and fly it into space, she (off camera) spent a bit of time cleaning any seaweed off, draining any water that might still be hiding in areas, and picking some fish out of the thrusters just as Luke cleaned snakes out of areas on Dagobah. Just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean it didn't or couldn't happen.

But in the film, Luke's ghost raises it directly out of the water, which would mean you are saying that Luke's ghost previously offscreen rose it out of the water, repaired it, and then put it back in the water to raise it out of the water again dramatically for Rey. If that works for you, then good for you. I think that is silly.

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As for why he didn't fly there himself... I'm guessing you didn't learn from Kylo's lesson. Luke knew that if he confronted Kylo Ren directly, the rage from the boy would only feed him with the Dark Side. Luke took that away from him by NOT being there in person. Luke was doing a few things in his lesson to Kylo Ren. He was showing Ben that the Force was stronger than Kylo Ren was capable of understanding. He was showing him that for all his anger, he couldn't win. And he was showing him that even though Kylo thought he could kill his Master, there was never really any contest between them in the ability to control and use the Force. Ben/Kylo was a boy. An angry boy. A bully with a lightsaber. Luke knew how to push Ben's buttons and cause a delay that would save Leia and the resistance. Being there would have changed the whole nature of the encounter. Yes, Luke likely could have defeated them using the Force, and being there in person. But it would have been more difficult, as it would have been an ever-present rage inducer for Kylo Ren, exacerbating the whole endeavor. By taking away that temptation, and by showing Kylo Ren the lesson of what the Force can really do, Luke won.

What Luke didn't realize is how taxing it would be on him. He had likely turned himself off from the Force for so long, that it exhausted him past the point of normal human endurance, but Luke willed himself with the Force to keep going until the lesson was complete. Only then did Luke collapse and expire...becoming one with the Force.

But flying to Crait, although possible, would have made everything more difficult. Thus he didn't do that.

This is a defense of TLJ. You probably didn't read my TLJ thoughts and reactions posts (it is much shorter overall), but the comment of mine you are referring to here is a reference to that. I mentioned that I was unsatisfied that there were no lightsaber duels in the film (a duel meaning saber vs. saber). A possible solution to that would have the film play out on Crait as it did with Luke's projection. And then after Kylo stabs Luke's Force projection, the real Luke comes flying from around the mountain in the X-Wing and destroys a AT-AT, and then lands or is shot down near Kylo, and then they have a real ligthsaber duel. Then he could still fade away as Obi-Wan had in ANH.

It's not that I don't get Kylo's lesson. It's that I think it makes a boring movie. I have never said that Luke wasn't a perfect example of Jedi philosophy at the end of TLJ, but it sounds like you have had that debate with people elsewhere. (I'm not bashing TLJ. After seeing TRoS, I feel I have a new appreciation for TLJ.)

I get it. Luke's sacrifice was a fitting ending for his character. But ever since I was a little kid, I have come to associate Jedi with lightsabers and Star Wars movies with lightsaber duels. You can't have one without the other. Now of course, no one expected a duel in RO. But a movie that actually has the word "Jedi" in the title and not have a lightsaber duel?! That's a crime. Return of the Jedi had a lightsaber duel that ended with Luke throwing the lightsaber away and being all Jedi, something that obviously impressed Johnson. The point is, there was a lightsaber duel before that 'true Jedi' moment.

But that is not the film we got. I think Johnson put Luke's X-wing underwater because Luke was determined to not leave, like he may have intentionally waterlogged it so it would be ruined after 6 years and not serve as a temptation to leave.

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Something I didn't even mention before, it also doesn't make sense that Kylo would wait a year to repair the helmet.

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And I'm not entirely sure of the lightsaber. Rey obviously took it. It looks like it was "repaired". Perhaps Leia did that, so Rey could have a lightsaber to train with. Whatever lightsaber Leia used in the flashback apparently wasn't around anymore, so something was needed for training. So it was repaired....by someone.
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I think it would have been quite a bit better if they had used the green lightsaber. It was definitely a missed opportunity. However, you even touched upon the method by which someone (Leia or Rey) who repaired the lightsaber. They used the Jedi texts, which likely had instructions for constructing and repairing a lightsaber. I'm pretty sure there have been multiple instances of lightsabers being sliced in half and the owner or victor deciding to repair the weapon.

The other thing you need to consider is that Rey has a LOT of sentimental value placed on that lightsaber. It was what, in her mind, led her on the journey that put her in touch of the people she grew to know and respect. It opened her mind to the Force. It was what gave her a purpose beyond simply "surviving". So even though it was pulled apart, which caused an explosion, it would have meant enough to her to cause her to pick up the pieces and take them with her. It meant enough that either Rey or Leia, or both of them together, worked to reassemble the lightsaber.

I would bet, based on the explosive nature of the pull-apart, the crystal was damaged or possibly even destroyed. So then there is the strong possibility that either the crystal needed to be replaced, or perhaps there was just enough of it to still make it usable, but perhaps with a shortened lifespan for the weapon. It's a nature of "we don't need to explain every single nuance" that resulted in this not really being fully detailed and explained in the movie.

Considering we see that Rey eventually builds her own lightsaber, as mentioned (yellow), it might be safe to assume that it was Rey who repaired the lightsaber, and recognized it as not being as reliable as it once was, so she then began crafting her own lightsaber. Thus, she had the one that meant something to her, and the one that was her own, from her own hand. That would mean something, though something different, to her.

I own a digital copy of TLJ. I have the benefit of being able to pull up TLJ on my computer. I can pause it or play it slow in high definition. The pieces of the Skywalker lightsaber in Rey's hands on the Falcon show that it wasn't merely split in two. Both pieces were very badly damaged. I also own the TRoS Visual Dictionary (and I've seen the film four times in the theater). In TRoS, the lightsaber is brand-spanking new looking except or a thin leatherish strip around the center of it. I said, "It really couldn't even be the same lightsaber – It just looks the same, and maybe has the same crystal and some other parts."

It comes across like Abrams is just putting a band-aid on a machete wound. It's obvious to me that Johnson was like 'Screw-you Rey, make your own lightsaber in the next episode' and Abrams obviously had a lot more reverence for the Skywalker lightsaber, so he is just pretending the damage is not as bad as it really was because he wouldn't have blown it up in the first place. No, they don't need to explain every nuance. I am not suggesting that they should have had a scene in the film showing the lightsaber being repaired just so it could be more believable to me. It is just yet another discontinuity between the films. Some of my points are small, but you are still replying to them.

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Nuff said.

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This scene is not ringing a bell to me, so I cannot comment on it.

Which scene? Rey first meeting Poe at the end of TLJ? Or their argument in TRoS? They argued about the condition of the Falcon, the condition of BB-8, and Poe thinks she needs to be out on the missions with him instead of in Jedi training. Not a big scene, not a bad scene, but it still seems a little strange since they only just met at the end of he last movie. Just a minor observation.

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A character had a big part in one movie, and not in another movie. Hmmm.. let's see if this applies to any other characters in Star Wars: Boba Fett (intro and notable scenes in Empire Strikes Back, whacky and quick ending in Return of the Jedi)

Boba Fett was a minor part in both TESB and RotJ.

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Jar Jar (Phantom Menace introduction, further involvement in Attack of the Clones, a footnote in Revenge of Sith)

Jar Jar had a logically decreasing role in that trilogy. In Episode I he was the Fool archetype (mythologically often appearing at the beginning of a journey), and comedy relief. Jar Jar was absolutely perfect in TPM. AotC is a darker film and he returned as the fool only to be tricked into proposing Palpatine get more emergency powers. He would have had no other purpose in that plot. In RotS, the darkest of all Star Wars films, there's nothing for the fool to do in the plot but look sad at Padme's funeral, which actually adds more dramatic weight to the scene. However I do feel Jar Jar got a RAW deal by not appearing in the 'kitchen sink' final battle of TRoS. "Meesa back, Palpy!"

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Captain Panaka (decent scenes in Phantom Menace, the barest of footnote in Attack of Clones)

The actor didn't return for AotC, so they replaced his character with his character's nephew.

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Maz Kanata (notable scenes in Force Awakens, significantly less in Last Jedi, even less in Rise of Skywalker)

Maz actually had a more important role in TRoS than TLJ, even though the total dialogue may have been about the same.

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General Veers (important scenes in Empire Strikes Back, never again mentioned in another movie).

There wasn't any major Imperial ground offensives in RotJ. And Veers was the ground force commander of the Executor, while the ground forces on the forest moon were actually stationed there. Veers may have died when the Executor collided with the Death Star, but there would have been no reason to show him or mention him in RotJ.

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Perhaps, in the time between The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker, Finn and Rose had a significant spat and called it quits. They would just be "friends". So she is there, but there is no spark with Finn anymore. Finn never really struck me as Mr. Romantic, so chances are he screwed up and Rose dumped him. Thus, Finn decides it best to go out on an adventure with people he considers friends. It's as good of reason as any, and makes perfect sense. Yes, it's NOT SHOWN on the movie, because soap operas do not go into space operas. People don't want lover's quarrels to take up time in a movie, so that kind of thing is not shown and may be addressed in a book or something.

LOL, good job here. People don't want lovers' quarrels to take up time in a movie, but I don't want to have to spend any of my own imagination on lovers' quarrels either. They could have summarize something like this in one or two lines of dialogue in the film, but the outcome of Rose's expressed feelings for Finn is really a very minor symptom of the issues. There was absolutely no point in putting it in TLJ in the first place if it wasn't going to be important in TRoS. But this only could have been prevented if they had actually planned a cohesive trilogy. Since they didn't, it was on Abrams to make a film that seemed to flow from the previous films. He failed.

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Characters come and go in Star Wars. Just because they have notable scenes in one movie doesn't mean they will forever be notable.

True. But one difference with Rose was, Abrams hired a personal friend of his to play a new Resistance dialogue character. Rose was at the base with this new character, and the new character was totally unnecessary and added nothing to the film. Abrams obviously didn't care about the Rose character so flushed her down to bit part to give his friend a job. The change doesn't come across as more natural like some of the other ones. Rose in TLJ was more like the Lando of TESB. I feel Lando got an appropriately important role in RotJ.

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My DJ reference was mostly a joke. As I stated, it would have been kinda funny. See my comment above for Veers. There was no role for him in the plot of RotJ. In the final battle of TRoS, Lando brought 16,000 ships from the galaxy. There was room for anyone of good or ambiguous morality in the Allied Fleet. Not Veers. He's evil. There are a long list of characters that could have been in the final battle, especially since the film was billed as the conclusion of the whole saga that ties it all together. The other films weren't marketed as that.

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And the kid was a sign.

I get what Broom Kid was a sign of. Him being in TRoS wouldn't have taken anything away from that.

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I was to show that you really DON'T need to be part of a family lineage in order to be a Force user.

So was Rey in TLJ, then Abrams spit on that message and made her part of a Palpatine's family lineage.

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That boy was showing that anyone could potentially be a Force user. It was meant to open the door for other people to use their imaginations, to dream, to think "That kid could be anyone!" Sadly too many people missed that. People detested The Last Jedi for various reasons (some valid, many more not), so the kid and DJ were called silly or useless or not needed.

I didn't miss that and I don't detest TLJ for that. I said nothing along those lines in this thread. And I like DJ. You are obviously very defensive about TLJ, but this is a tangent.

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Also, the hatred for The Last Jedi was significant with many people, so there would be little need to bring back or mention these very minor characters in The Rise of Skywalker. It would have reminded people of that movie, and that is what JJ Abrams was attempting to avoid.

This is one of my points. Abrams made choices that benefited TRoS at the expense of the greater whole of which TRoS is a part.

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I'm sure in a galaxy as vast as the Star Wars galaxy, there are a LOT of rumors and planets that were suspected to house various things. Rumors of Imperial vaults, placed there by the Emperor, abound. Rumors of various other parts are most certainly out there. It doesn't mean that Luke, Lando, or anyone else is going to seek them all out to verify or disprove each rumor.

And Luke obviously thought there was a threat on the horizon, otherwise he wouldn't have started to teach others to use the Force. But we all know what happened to that idea. And once that event occurred, Luke ran from everyone! Thus, any further hints or warnings about the Sith or the Dark Side growing stronger was missed completely, as Luke was not there to sense it and tell others.
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Snoke was a tool, a puppet, to be used by the Emperor to foster a student in hopes that someone strong with the Force, and turned to the Dark Side, would be a suitable vessel for the Emperor. Or, barring that, a strong arm like Vader was for a while. Whether or not Snoke was "created" by the Emperor, or simply "allowed" to feel as though he was in control while the Emperor likely manipulated Snoke from the shadows (think of the first movie of the sage...the Phantom Menace... Palpatine was a shadow manipulator then as well). Should he have been alluded to in previous movies? Perhaps. But perhaps not. A shadowy figure in a cloak would be a dead giveaway if Snoke was shown speaking to it. Or perhaps Snoke didn't even KNOW he was being manipulated. The Emperor was quite a bit more powerful in the Dark Side than Snoke was. Snoke couldn't even see the "good" in Kylo Ren to see his own death. Could it be that the Dark Side had pulled a veil over his eyes? Hmmm.. food for thought. If the Emperor WAS manipulating Snoke like a puppet, Snoke likely did not know it. The Emperor allowed him to see things, and veiled other things.

OK, but I'm starting to wonder if you are just offering solutions or if you really think that this trilogy was planned out in advance. It wasn't.

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Also, an earlier hint of someone more powerful that Snoke would have made even MORE people scream about how much of a rip off of the Empire Strikes Back the movie The Last Jedi was. Having a shadowy figure talking to Snoke would have been just like the communication room when Vader spoke with the Emperor in Empire Strikes Back. It was better NOT to show sign of the Emperor. So, planned or not, it was more of a "OMG!" moment than a "I knew it since last movie, and this is just like Return of the Jedi now!".

I can see you've been damaged by TLJ bashers over the past couple years. There are a lot of similarities between the Disney Trio and other films, but I hardly ever mentioned it. I can't speak for the rest of fandom but I definitely would have appreciated a slow reveal of Palpatine with hints over the course of the trilogy. I could have been more subtle than Snoke talking to a shadowy hologram of someone. But they couldn't have done that because Palpatine's return was not planned ahead. Abrams said each director has a maximum of creative control over their single film, and he didn't know he would going to do the last one until after he had finished the first one. This is a campfire chain message "trilogy" and it shows.

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A person could be cynical and say that the line was meant for Snoke.

A person could also be factual and say that the line was originally meant for Snoke.

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A person could say the dialogue was contrived, but it could also be interpreted as a call back all the way to the Phantom Menace, when Palpatine was manipulating things to bring him into power, and manipulating Anakin to turn him to the Dark Side. And now manipulating Snoke to not only be a scapegoat, a "side show" to distract the Republic and Resistance from noticing the build-up that the Emperor was obviously planning for a few years.

Only obvious in TRoS, not in any other film. TRoS explains that Snoke was to the FO like Dooku was to the Separatist Confederacy. They are both really controlled by Palpatine. I point that out somewhere.

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I am one of those people who actually really enjoyed the concept of the Emperor being back. It was akin to Dark Empire, another piece of Star Wars that I enjoyed quite a bit. There were actually several things in Dark Empire which were used in the sequel trilogy. The Force Projection that Luke used in The Last Jedi was borrowed from Dark Empire. The "reborn" Emperor was from Dark Empire. The dark fleet was from Dark Empire (but in Dark Empire there was only ONE super ship with a planet killing ability, but still a very sizable fleet that was used by the Emperor, along with World Devastators). Luke's assurance in using the Force was in Dark Empire. Think of the line that was used in Dark Empire, and used originally in Empire Strikes Back, "Size matters not". That was on full display when Luke went out against the AT-M6s on Crait.

OK. I would have been happier about Palpatine coming back if they handled his return differently and it didn't undermine Anakin's accomplishment in RotJ.

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If Palpatine was funneling resources, then how did all those resources get to Exegol without a wayfinder? Lando said there were only two. Was he wrong? Well Palpatine didn't even give one to Ochi when he went out to look for Rey, so he could get back there. Palpatine only gave Ochi a dagger that could lead him to Death Star wreckage to maybe find a wayfinder to then use to get back. How did the Sith cult acquire all the stuff and crew to make hundreds of death star destroyers, underwater no less? How could Exegol even remain hidden with all that traffic that must be going on?

And the Starkiller wasn't only designed to cut the head off the New Republic. It wasn't a one-shot weapon. It could remotely destroy multiple star system with just some recharge time in between shots draining from the sun. They weren't planning on Starkiller getting destroyed. And Exegol had literally hundreds of death star destroyers. That's overkill. Palpatine could have given the FO one single death star destroyer out of their fleet and accomplish what the Starkiller did in TFA. The Sith Cult makes the FO totally obsolete. The Starkiller was outrageous, and then for TRoS Abrams added ridiculous scale escalation on top of it.

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No, my point was that in TFA Finn and Rey both recognized Han by his name. They didn't know who he was until he said his name - "You're Han Solo?!" But in TRoS they recognized Lando by his face - After Threepio said his name, they said they already knew who he was.

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No Finn wasn't born in the time of the last war. In TFA Finn knew who Han Solo was by name (the famous Rebel general) which seems like information that would be beyond typical stormtrooper training. Han was a part of the history of "the last war" so Finn knows some history. There are several other examples of Abrams not maintaining continuity with TFA, so the evidence is against Abrams intentionally making Finn be technically inaccurate.

I feel that even without the Emperor and Vader, it is silly that virtually the whole Empire would be defeated to the point of an armistice treaty only 1 year after RotJ. This is Abrams just rushing to end the prior trilogy's situation to set up his. In TRoS he is pushing the end of the last war back further to Endor, which is even sillier than it was in TFA. And I know Abrams has this weird fetish giant space wreckage that soft landed on planets, but come on. With Finn's demonstrated understanding of history, you don't fly inside a wrecked star destroyer and around other wreckage of an old space battle without knowing that famous galactic battle, the battle that ended the last war.

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...Whatever the case, Ochi never did find Rey, and the movies still happened as they did.

Indeed. In this case, Abrams made some Force vision imagery he thought would help characterize Rey in TFA without having to bother with what it meant, and then later had to come up with something to make it make sense. He put the cake icing down first, and then tried to bake the cake under the icing.

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Yeah I think the novelization will probably go with stuff like you've said, but we'll see if it is any more convincing.

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A lot of what abouts. Palpatine wasn't planned ahead, and Palpatine feels shoed in to TRoS. Luke being Vader's son and Leia being Luke's brother don't feel like they are shoed in. It's not that you can't ever just add stuff that wasn't planned ahead. If you think that I've been saying that, you are really missing the point.

Each CT film is a miracle that they turned out as good as they did with all the challenges involved. Movie making today is totally different. Now Lucasfilm has a giant corporation behind it and the films all have $200+ million budgets. It defies logic to not get one person with a singular trilogy vision to guide it all the way through. Like George Lucas for the PT. Like Peter Jackson for the two Middle Earth trilogies. The only possible explanation for not doing that is because they couldn't get anyone to do it. That is a total failure right there. Next, their solution to that problem is to get three directors and give them as much creative freedom as possible, no overarching story, just make them one at a time and see how it turns out. It still made money but the quality still suffered for it. Yes, Lucas made some changes along the way of the classic trilogy, but Lucas was a pioneer. Even the PT was different. Lucas plotted it out in the 90s and there was hardly the slightest deviation to that in production. The Disney Trio is the opposite, and Disney has no good excuse. Maybe they could have found a single person if they didn't have a strict movie release schedule. Every other year and they had to start by 2015. I would have been happy to wait longer for a cohesive trilogy to start, and longer between each film too if need be. We have Disney firing Star Wars directors and having to scramble to get new ones. Disney was greedy and rushed it.

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Pryde taking over the First Order. The Emperor pulling the strings on Snoke. The Final Order having power. None of them needed to be hinted at in prior movies. Kylo Ren turning back to Ben Solo was certainly hinted at many times in the prior two movies. Kylo's hesitation and lack of attacking his mother was a sign there was still good in him. The communication and interaction between him and Rey hinted some more at it. Snoke's admonishment at Kylo's weakness was more hints at it. It was pretty much a foregone conclusion that Kylo Ren would cease to be and Ben Solo would become good again. Redemption, just as it happened with Vader...whom Kylo Ren idolized... was just another tie in to the past, and how it never really dies.

The destruction of the Emperor's forces may have sparked the rest of the galaxy to realize that the First Order, just like the "reborn" Emperor, were not undefeatable. They had taken out a massive fleet, and now had the drive and determination to finish the job against the First Order. Reference back to those Aftermath books, and Mon Mothma had pushed for the demilitarization of the Republic, so that only individual planets had forces, but the Republic itself did not have one cohesive force so it would never again be a potential tool for someone to wrest control of and turn on the Republic to make it an Empire again. So there was no Republic fleet. No one Admiral in control of it all. It was "this planet's forces", and "that planet's forces" and so on. So getting them to all act as one was something that no one had really attempted to do.

I'm glad all that works for you.

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The resolution of the First Order war in one sentence was likely done to make the movie probably 2 hours shorter.

You wouldn't have to resolve the FO war in one sentence if you make the movie about that, as the prior two films were, and like the original Episode IX director's film would have been.

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The name's meaning is given in the third Aftermath book. In summary, the group that made it to the Unknown Regions, the group that did not want to be associated with the Empire, had the first order of business to be to rebuild, but to DO IT RIGHT! So the First Order was the redo of the Empire, but "done correctly, without corruption, without bloat". Their First Order was supposedly, at least in their minds, BETTER than the Empire...the New Order.

I like the concept, but I still don't like the name.

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The Emperor's boast about the Final Order was the intent by him to have a legacy government. He would live on, his Empire would live on, and it would be the final form of government in the galaxy, never to be usurped by another form. Thus, the "Final" Order. Think of it akin to Hitler thinking the Third Reich would last a thousand years. The Emperor thought his would be the final form of government, forever more.

I get it, but still don't like it.

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At least Boba Fett had value as slapstick comedy. Maybe they should tried that with the knights. The six stooges?

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I'm sure there will be books or some such that expand upon them, but I don't think they were ever supposed to be much more than window dressing, dream sequence caricatures. Possibly they could be a missed opportunity, but no more than a variety of other things from the Original Trilogy were (which were later expanded by books). Sometimes people's desire to have everything spelled out in the movies just baffles me. Why must everything be explained in the movies?

This isn't about explanation. I never said I wanted the knights backstory. I have part of their backstory in the Visual Dictionary and it is boring. My issue is they don't do anything cool in the movies, and they don't even look cool.

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Poe could have joined the New Republic (a loose term since the New Republic didn't have a centralized fleet) by joining one of the planetary defense forces just a few short weeks before Leia decided to break from the New Republic and become the Resistance. He decided that he liked that idea much more than being a part of something that wasn't really unified except in name (the New Republic), so he followed Leia and joined the Resistance. Thus, he did both, but perhaps one for not very long. Likewise, he could have been an avid "flyboy" type teen, and in his late teen years and early 20s, he followed the rather attractive Zorii Bliss and was a spice runner. He may have done that for 3-4 years...a potentially "long time" for a spice runner, before taking the opportunity to get out and possibly join the New Republic to avoid being jailed for an extended amount of time on spice running charges. Or maybe he got out and was listless for a year or two, and in a fit of hunger from lack of funds to eat, and a desire to still fly, he went to the local New Republic office and signed up to be a pilot...only then realizing that he would be relegated to planetary defense duties. When the opportunity came to get away from the rather boring planetary defense duties, he took it and joined the Resistance. What better way to see more of the galaxy that with one of the heroes of the Galactic War.

Poe was impulsive, brash, cocky, and not really what one would consider "stable" in terms of allegiance. Thus the whole "we're taking control of the ship" bit in The Last Jedi. He's more of a "small group" sort of pilot, one who flew by the seat of his pants. That is, like a spice runner would. You took the chance as a spice runner, otherwise you lost your load or your life. Everything Poe ever did in the Sequel Trilogy matches that aspect of his character. He flew "in control", but recklessly. He bucked command because it never really applied to him before being part of a spice running group. He was callous about others he didn't know, and expected them to do as he would do in order to stay alive, but not realizing the nature of "orders" coming from him based on his rank. He really only trusted and cared about a small group that he kept "close" to him. A group akin to a spice running group. A small group who was just as capable as he was at surviving, but skilled in different aspects that helped the small group to become one gelled group capable of tackling any task.

Leia was in the mindset of the Rebel Alliance, where everyone was focused on defeating the bad guys..the Empire. That mindset was no more. The Resistance didn't have that sort of focus. But Leia still operated like it did, and still treated others as they were in the Rebel Alliance. Thus good pilots got promoted based on their success at missions. Poe was very good at missions with flying, thus he got promoted in the Resistance. But he was not really a leader, because he had the mentality of working in a spice running group. Very few people probably listened to him in the spice runners unless it was in relation to flying. Beyond that, other spice runners in his group probably had their own specialties, their own expertise. No one took his "orders" and did them because he said so. But in the Resistance, with ranks, when he became Commander, he could order whole squadrons to attack, and they would because he ordered them to. But those same people didn't have the same mindset that Poe did, or the same skillset as Poe. So those people died and Poe didn't. By being promoted by Leia, like the Rebel Alliance did during the Galactic War (think of Commander Skywalker and Captain Solo in Empire Strikes Back), Poe was forced into a position he wasn't familiar. People did what he "ordered" because of his rank, but they didn't have his skill or mentality, so others died doing what he ordered...even though he kind of expected them to have the same desire to "stay alive or die" that he did in order to get things done. Thus his actions seemed very reckless and wasteful to someone like Leia, who demoted him. He seemed hot headed and impulsive by Holdo, so she didn't explain or even hint at things to Poe...much to her chagrin.

So Poe was likely many things, even over just several years that took us to The Force Awaken and The Last Jedi.

Nice exposition! There is a youth novel coming that details Poe's time as a spice runner when he was a teenager, before he became New Republic pilot, which still seems to be discontinuity with TRoS which indicates he joined the Resistance after being a spice runner. So the films and the publishing contradict despite them officially being on the same level of canon.

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The lines that Zorii uses that says "Leia never gave up", could have meant a couple things. One, perhaps off-camera, things were mentioned that Leia was dead, but the Resistance carried on. Or perhaps she was speaking of Leia in the more overall sense. Leia was the daughter of an Alderaanian Senator, who became a Rebel against the Galactic Empire. That Rebel eventually helped lead to the end of the Empire. Then Leia helped found the New Republic. When the New Republic failed to provide a strong foundation of security, Leia broke away to form the Resistance. All of that is a pretty strong definition of "never giving up". So what Zorii said was true, from a certain point of view. Wink

Sure, Zorii could have known Leia as a New Republic government figure, but it still sounds weird in the film that the line to Poe is coming from her. Poe has a personal relationship with Leia. Zorii was a figure from Poe's teen years which were two decades earlier.

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OK, thanks for the detailed explanations.
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TauntaunScout
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Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:31 pm Post subject:

Back when I was young and foolish and a LARPer, we had a GM who was famous for what we called his "My friends!" speeches. Basically, he would run fairly decent plots Friday night through Saturday, but then on Saturday night, around midnight, he would precipitously wrap up the story with an out of game speech, along the lines of "My friends! The battle to control the Shire of the Dragon's Griffon has been won, etc. etc. etc.". It was lazy, and it was a way of adding things into the stories that he would never have had the volunteers/props/space/money to actually pull off in a LARP. The opening crawl to both of the Abrams movies were both "My friends!" speeches in my opinion.

Whill
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Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:21 pm Post subject: TRoS

lol https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLldQee4SjoOQH_PRStDqBDzQ3f19QI4pu So here is a video playlist I made of TRoS film clips, in chronological order. These were all officially released somewhere - These aren't bootleg phone videos filmed in theaters, so these all have good definition. Most of the film clips lead into a traditional trailer but you can skip that by clicking the Next button. Sorry but some videos have ads (none that interrupted videos in my viewings though). ~~~ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0593128400/ So the TRoS novelization was already sold at a convention so there is a lot of info out there about the content. From what I've been able to gather, the novel fills in the gaps and explains things from the movie, but also adds more perplexing elements and retcons to prior films. Apparently Palpatine made Snoke as a test for Kylo, and Palpatine revealed himself as a result of Snoke's death [even though that had happened a year prior.] So it seems that Darth Plagueis and Palpatine had been a Force Dyad, and Palpatine had failed to create one with Anakin Vader. Snoke was said to not be able to do it either. That means Snoke did not create the Dyad in the Force between Rey and Ren as he said in TLJ. And Snoke knew about the Dyad in TLJ but the TRoS book says Palpatine just found out about the Dyad when Rey and Ben appeared together before him, which means Palpatine did not know everything Snoke knew. Palpatine's Sith disciples had been working "for generations" to build Palpatine's fleet. [So I guess it is not that the death star destroyers look like Imp I's, but rather that Imp I's were based on the design of the death star destroyers. Geonosian/Imperial Death Star super-weapon tech is an inferior knock-off of Sith tech. This renders RO and the Lucas trilogies dramatically impotent.] As previously mentioned, they went "Dark Empire" and Palpatine transfers his spirit to clone bodies, meaning Palpatine had two methods of immortality available to him: His spirit transferring to a clone body, or someone killing him and his spirit transferring to their body. Apparently Plagueis developed the spirit transfer power but couldn't do it in time when Palpatine killed him, which I guess means why the age old 'kill Sith' method took over and "all the Sith" went from Plagueis into Palpatine. On DS II Palpatine actually wanted Luke to kill him so he could take over his body. [Which would mean that when Vader blocked Luke's attempt to strike the Emperor, Vader was going against his master's wishes. Was Vader not in on the plan? And Palpatine laughed with glee after Vader stopping Luke. And when Luke was later enraged with the Dark Side, Palpatine told Luke to kill Vader, not him. It seems if Palpatine had really wanted Luke to kill him in anger, that would have been easy when Luke had almost killed Vader. Luke didn't want to kill his father.] So according to the novelization Palpatine's spirit left his body as he was falling down the DS shaft, and the spirit flew to a clone body waiting on Exegol. And the book reveals that Rey's father was not a naturally reproduced offspring of Palpatine, but rather a failed, non-Force-sensitive clone of Palpatine who was set free from Exegol to just go have a normal life. So the TLJ message about anyone being able to be a Jedi is back on the table! IIRC, in the film Rey's father was on the run from Palpatine, but maybe that was just after Palpatine found out about Rey. So Rey has no paternal grandmother after all. [And biologically, Rey's father is a "bother" to the clone-Palpatine which would make Rey a niece of clone-Palpatine. I guess many fans are outraged about the revelation of Rey's father being a failed, powerless clone of Palpatine. At this point I'm numb to stuff like this.] Apparently Allegiant General Pryde always outranked General Hux without Hux being demoted by Kylo. [This contradicts TFA, which further begs the question, where was General Pryde before TRoS?] Supposedly, Rey and Ben's kiss wasn't romantic. It was a kiss of gratitude. Wow, the author just sunk her Sith dagger in the hearts of the shippers. [I guess this caused 'outrage' too. ] TRoS is like a conveyex wreck I can't look away from, lol. _________________ * Site Map Forum Guidelines Registration/Log-In Help The Rancor Pit Library Star Wars D6 Damage

TauntaunScout
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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:03 am Post subject:

You ever watch a sequel to a less famous movie and they just sorta wing it? Like in Beastmaster, how Ruh is a different kind of big cat in different movies? Sadly that's what Star Wars has become.

Whill
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:49 pm Post subject:

https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/star-wars-rise-of-skywalker-early-digital-release-1203534523/ 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' Gets Surprise Early Digital Release "Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker" has hit digital channels a few days before originally scheduled. The final installment of the original Star Wars saga became available for purchase late Friday (March 13) across digital retailers, four days before its previous March 17 release date. Disney’s early digital drop of "Rise of Skywalker" may have been spurred by the spreading coronavirus pandemic, as millions of people are staying at home amid the crisis. "Rise of Skywalker" is available in HD for $19.99 and in 4K Ultra HD for $24.99 (via participating retailers). It’s available on Apple TV and iTunes, Amazon, Google Play, Vudu, FandangoNow and Movies Anywhere. In addition, the full nine-movie "Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga" is now available through participating digital retailers. ... Currently, “Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker” is scheduled to be released on physical DVD and in 4K Ultra HD on Blu-ray on March 31, when it also is slated to become available to rent. Bonus material in the home-video release versions includes “The Skywalker Legacy,” a feature-length making-of documentary that goes behind the scenes with the cast and filmmakers. Other extras include featurettes about the film’s Pasaana desert scenes; Warwick Davis, who reprises his role as Wicket the Ewok; and how the Lucasfilm effects team created a record 584 creatures and droids for the film. The digital release also includes “The Maestro’s Finale,” an exclusive feature highlighting composer John Williams, who has scored every film in the Skywalker saga. On March 31, for the first time, the release of the first eight movies on Blu-ray 4K UHD: “The Phantom Menace,” “Attack of the Clones,” “Revenge of the Sith,” “A New Hope,” “The Empire Strikes Back,” “Return of the Jedi,” “The Force Awakens” and “Rogue One: A Star Wars Story.” _________________ * Site Map Forum Guidelines Registration/Log-In Help The Rancor Pit Library Star Wars D6 Damage

TauntaunScout
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Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:08 pm Post subject:

I am watching so much streaming stuff. I might have to pay Hulu more to get rid of commercials.

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