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Aelwe
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Joined: 10 May 2015
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 Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:04 am Post subject: |
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I may be a bit lost with all the legends and the new canon, but weren't all ground forces of the Empire -Stormtroopers included- supposed to be part of the Imperial Army? With Stormtroopers being the "default" trooper, deployed in most situations and the rest being just different specializations (driver, gunner, etc.) or using diferent equipment based on the environment (snowtroopers, mudtroopers, etc.)?
Certainly this take is not very realistic compared to the real world were there are different branches of the military and a lot of specialized units, but I always thought it made sense in the context of Star Wars.
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Mamatried
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Joined: 16 Dec 2017
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| Aelwe wrote: | I may be a bit lost with all the legends and the new canon, but weren't all ground forces of the Empire -Stormtroopers included- supposed to be part of the Imperial Army? With Stormtroopers being the "default" trooper, deployed in most situations and the rest being just different specializations (driver, gunner, etc.) or using diferent equipment based on the environment (snowtroopers, mudtroopers, etc.)?
Certainly this take is not very realistic compared to the real world were there are different branches of the military and a lot of specialized units, but I always thought it made sense in the context of Star Wars. |
Stormtroopers were supposed to be a seperate branch, more elite and superior to the army , supposed to. But yes I fully agree with your post |
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Whill
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:20 am Post subject: |
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At first, all Imperial Stormtroopers were clones. Clonetroopers/stormtroopers were born and raised to be stormtroopers. In canon, the Stormtrooper branch is part of the Imperial Army, but I see the organization more like in legends.
In my SWU, a couple early rebellions against the Empire culminated in a battle at Kamino which destroyed most of the Empire's clone making abilities. This was a serious setback to the Emperor's plans which required a stead growth of stormtrooper units. The Empire was still committed to the program of raising troopers from early childhood, so the Empire adopted the practice taking toddler children of Imperial citizens and raising them to be stormtroopers (as the First Order did in canon). This practice replaced the Republic practice of asking parents to take their Force-sensitive children for the Jedi Order. The Empire even uses the stormtrooper program as a cover to continue taking Force-sensitive children, but of course these children do not become stormtroopers.
This process of using normal humans for stormtroopers was still twice as slow as raising clones (It only took clones 8 years to reach the level of physical maturity of a 16 year-old normal human). Regular Imperial army are the recruits already 16 years old or older, like the Imperial navy. Since Han was a mudtrooper, that means mudtroopers are definitely not stormtroopers even if their armor has similarities.
The stormtrooper loyalty thing comes from the indoctrination of growing up to be a stormtrooper. All stormtroopers start out with the same training, but at some point aptitude tests send capable ones into the specialist schools. I find that I don't care for the idea of non-stormtroopers using stormtrooper armor, but I can more see stormtroopers using different stormtrooper specialist armors if needed.
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Grimace
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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | At first, all Imperial Stormtroopers were clones. Clonetroopers/stormtroopers were born and raised to be stormtroopers. In canon, the Stormtrooper branch is part of the Imperial Army, but I see the organization more like in legends. |
Well, that's not entirely true. When the movies and action figures first came out in the 70s, as well as the trading cards, there was never a mention of Stormtroopers being clones.
It wasn't until a few years later that Lucas indicated that they were clones...something that never made a lot of sense to me. Just because someone wears the same armor as another one doesn't mean they are identical looking on the inside of the armor.
The full retcon that occurred with Star Wars made them all clones of Jango Fett. So if you are going by "Lucas-established Star Wars" specifically, then yes...they are clones and supposedly always have been clones.
If you are going by what came out way back when, and was then later changed by Lucas, and then later changed by Disney, they may or may not be clones. It's really up to each person's interpretation. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:53 pm Post subject: "Soldiers of the Empire!" (January 1978) |
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| Grimace wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | At first, all Imperial Stormtroopers were clones. Clonetroopers/stormtroopers were born and raised to be stormtroopers... |
Well, that's not entirely true. When the movies and action figures first came out in the 70s, as well as the trading cards, there was never a mention of Stormtroopers being clones.
It wasn't until a few years later that Lucas indicated that they were clones...something that never made a lot of sense to me. Just because someone wears the same armor as another one doesn't mean they are identical looking on the inside of the armor.
The full retcon that occurred with Star Wars made them all clones of Jango Fett. So if you are going by "Lucas-established Star Wars" specifically, then yes...they are clones and supposedly always have been clones.
If you are going by what came out way back when, and was then later changed by Lucas, and then later changed by Disney, they may or may not be clones. It's really up to each person's interpretation. |
I think you misunderstood something I wrote. No one in this thread so far said that all the Imperial stormtroopers in the classic era were all clones. When I used the phrase "at first" above, I was referring to in-universe at the dawn of the Empire. I was talking about the events of the film RotS, which exists in both Legends and Canon. Palpatine declared the Empire, and the Grand Army of the Republic clonetroopers became Imperial stormtroopers in that film. I mentioned that as a launching point from where my personal canon extends chronologically from then. Sorry for not being more clear about that.
Grimace, with all due respect you are incorrect about stormtroopers not being clones in the 70s. I actually mentioned this in reply to you in a couple 2010 threads but I guess you never noticed my posts back then...
I have a source from January 1978 (Star Wars Official Poster Monthly 4) that states that stormtroopers are clones from groups of genetically identical humans. The article even mentions that a previous attempt at creating clones fully-formed to adulthood in growth tanks was an utter failure, so then they switched to raising the clones from childhood. It says that the unruly stormtrooper kids are raised in harsh conditions. These "nasty little orphans" have only "the sheer unparalleled joy of a good raid" on their minds. Their military training makes them extremely arrogant, and of course they are brainwashed from the very beginning to believe they are special and serve proudly. As adults in service of the Empire, stormtroopers "are allowed liquor and women." (Yes, it really says that!) Multiple groups of clones implies that the clones may not all be clones of the same person, which would explain why they were not all the same height or had the same voice.
This 1978 article was reprinted once in a 1980 magazine, and then forgotten about. The classic films were not explicit about whether Imperial stormtroopers were clones or not, but it was clear they were certainly not all clones of the same person. The later EU first established that Imperial stormtroopers were not clones, then in light of the prequels and the rediscovered 1978 article, that was retconned so that stormtroopers are a mix of clones and non-clones. That mixture was established in Disney's canon universe as well. My personal SWU has both clones and non-clone stormtroopers, but usually not a mixture of the two within the same units. Only specific units are freshly cloned like my Imperial Shocktroopers based on Coruscant in my SWU.
In the classic films you don't need to see under the armor to know they are obviously not all genetically identical to each other because they have different height and voices. I think the hangup some fans have with the concept of Imperial stormtrooper clones is the result of binary, all or nothing thinking. Imperial Stormtroopers were established as clones in the 70s, but it doesn't state there was only one single genetic host like the clonetroopers. If there were 20 different genetic hosts for Imperial stormtroopers, the entire body of stormtroopers in the films could be clones of 20 different men and the units have a mix of the different clone types. It's not my choice interpretation, but it actually does work with the classic films.
The publication dated "January 1978" was likely released in late 1977, and even if it wasn't, the article would have to have been written in 1977, which means I have physical proof in my home that the concept of Imperial stormtroopers being clones goes back to at least 1977. The Wookieepedia entry for this 1978 article states that it was the first source to reveal that there were clone stormtroopers, and everything in my extensive research indicates that is correct. Interestingly, Midi-chlorians and Threepio being built by a slave boy working in an outer rim junkyard were actually mentioned by George Lucas in an interview in 1977! These things were not "later changed by Lucas".
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:08 am Post subject: |
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"A slave boy" is a far cry from Darth Vader. And "outer rim" is different than "Luke's home planet". I'd wager those specificities were decided later because in early interviews he also stated that the prequels would be show Luke, not Vader, as a boy. So changes happened.
I tend to think the snowtroopers are not imperial army. The Imperial Sourcebook makes it pretty clear. Besides, if stormtroopers are "the" army, then they aren't elite shock troops. By definition. You can't be both.
Let's face it, people wear the same (then new) breastplates across ESB cause the prop shop was being economical. |
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Scots Dragon
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Joined: 03 Mar 2017
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:31 am Post subject: Re: "Soldiers of the Empire!" (January 1978) |
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| Whill wrote: | | If there were 20 different genetic hosts for Imperial stormtroopers, the entire body of stormtroopers in the films could be clones of 20 different men and the units have a mix of the different clone types. It's not my choice interpretation, but it actually does work with the classic films. |
This might be a deliberate choice on the part of the Empire. For one, it gives a wider pool of genetic variation for specialised types of trooper than the Jango Fett template does. Clone Force 99, aka the Bad Batch, can actually be seen as a precursor to this; all Jango Fett clones, but genetically mutated through deliberate manipulation so as to have different physical traits. Such as one with razor-sharp eyesight who serves as a sniper, another with super-strength, etc.
It would also fit with the whole eugenics and fascist association that the Empire already has. But by varying the source pool of clones, they can reduce the internal loyalty of the original Fett Clones and replace it with a more general loyalty to the Empire. The Fett Clones were more likely to side with one-another over a superior due to considering each-other to be literal brothers. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: "Soldiers of the Empire!" (January 1978) |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | "A slave boy" is a far cry from Darth Vader. And "outer rim" is different than "Luke's home planet". I'd wager those specificities were decided later because in early interviews he also stated that the prequels would be show Luke, not Vader, as a boy. So changes happened. |
I think you totally missed the point of my post. I never said or implied changes and further developments didn't happen. They most certainly did. I completely agree that not all details of Threepio and Anakin's backgrounds were planned out ahead, and believe it or not, so does Lucas. I watched a video Lucas recorded on the 1994 day he sat down to begin writing the PT. It was all about looking for an idea. He referred to and showed the notebooks he had written as backstory for Star Wars, but obviously there was a lot that still had to be created.
Let's not veer from the point of me even mentioning that. Many fans believe false things about the history of Star Wars. I admit I did about some things before I knew better. One thing I did know since my childhood was that Imperial stormtroopers were said to be clones (at the time). I remember several of my RPG players over the years not believing me about the clone stormtroopers and having to show them the physical source of the information. Most fans do not know about the January 1978 source stating stormtroopers were clones. When I tell them, they tend to not believe me because it destroys their world view of Star Wars. Many fans hated the idea that the clones in "the Clone Wars" were not the enemies of the Republic, and so hated the idea that the clones were the Republic soldiers and thus (at least the beginning of) the Imperial stormtrooper force. I was replying to an attempt to correct my understanding with a falsehood. I own indisputable proof that Imperial stormtroopers in the original Star Wars movie were said by publishing to be clones in the 70s, and yet I am not believed.
Many prequel detractors think that every aspect of the prequels they don't like could not have possibly existed back in the time of the classic trilogy. Some things did. The concept of clone stormtroopers existed in the same year as the original Star Wars film. Prequel haters tend to hate Midi-chlorians so incorrectly assume that it was old Lucas ruining their childhood and not young Lucas. Midi-chlorians were always a part of Star Wars - They just didn't serve any purpose in the plot of the classic films so they weren't mentioned. Detractors tend to hate the fact that Threepio was made by Anakin and that Anakin was a young slave boy owned by a junk dealer. I feel it's quite interesting that Lucas used part of his 70s background of Threepio for Anakin. Part of Threepio's background and Midi-chlorians are other examples of things, besides clone stormtroopers, that existed in the 70s.
I don't get the date cut-off standards some fans have. Fans should like what they like and don't like what they don't like, no matter when the concept origin is dated to. If you don't like clone stormtroopers, then don't like it. But fans should not deny that the concept existed in 70s because of some artificial cut-off date between good and evil Lucas.
| Scots Dragon wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | If there were 20 different genetic hosts for Imperial stormtroopers, the entire body of stormtroopers in the films could be clones of 20 different men and the units have a mix of the different clone types. It's not my choice interpretation, but it actually does work with the classic films. |
This might be a deliberate choice on the part of the Empire. For one, it gives a wider pool of genetic variation for specialised types of trooper than the Jango Fett template does. Clone Force 99, aka the Bad Batch, can actually be seen as a precursor to this; all Jango Fett clones, but genetically mutated through deliberate manipulation so as to have different physical traits. Such as one with razor-sharp eyesight who serves as a sniper, another with super-strength, etc.
It would also fit with the whole eugenics and fascist association that the Empire already has. But by varying the source pool of clones, they can reduce the internal loyalty of the original Fett Clones and replace it with a more general loyalty to the Empire. The Fett Clones were more likely to side with one-another over a superior due to considering each-other to be literal brothers. |
That's good insight for those that who like the idea of clone stormtroopers.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | I tend to think the snowtroopers are not imperial army. The Imperial Sourcebook makes it pretty clear. Besides, if stormtroopers are "the" army, then they aren't elite shock troops. By definition. You can't be both.
Let's face it, people wear the same (then new) breastplates across ESB cause the prop shop was being economical. |
Sure. And in-universe, the armors can just be thought of as made by the same manufacturer. Every type of unit doesn't have to have unique armor components.
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