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Initiative/Alternating turn order
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udat
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:41 pm    Post subject: Initiative/Alternating turn order Reply with quote

Hi everyone.

I've seen a few threads about Initiative but I didn't see anything that quite matched what I was thinking, hence this new topic.

My board-game group recently started a 1st edition campaign after I picked up the 30th Anniversary reprints in a fit of nostalgia. We've had maybe 5 sessions, and completed Tatooine Manhunt. It has been a lot of fun, but we have struggled to manage the 1st Edition initiative system in larger combats. We also tried the Rules Upgrade Haste and Combat Dodge system, and while it was a little better, it was still clunky with a lot of combatants.

So I was looking at the REUP rules to see how Initiative was handled there, and if I have understood it correctly, each side's highest Perception character rolls, and whoever is highest, their entire team gets to go first...

That seems incredibly swingy - if everyone hits (which isn't unlikely when PCs typically have 4D or better in Blaster), the other side loses their actions even with good strength rolls. It makes the initiative roll the biggest factor in combat outcome by a huge margin.

What I thought I might try (and I might include Whill's idea of Initiative as a combo of dex and perception plus pips here) is have the initiative roll decide which side goes first, but only one character on that side gets to act, and then the next side chooses a figure to act, and alternate from there. I think this would suit my players as this is pretty much how the Imperial Assault board game works, except there the Rebels always get the first "activation", and I wondered if any of you had tried anything similar?

Cheers,
Andrew
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't remember anyone saying they had done something similar but it certainly is possible. I've heard of GMs having an initiative roll for each character on each side, and then turn order is determined by that for the encounter, going back and forth between sides for each round. Your suggestion is a simplification of that, so that there is still only one roll for each side like the normal sides method.

The issue with that is that, most of the time, at least some PCs have the higher initiative than who they are fighting. So when your PC group is going up against some stormtroopers, they will win initiative most of the time but the second person to shoot could be a 2D Perception NPC and the third person to shoot could have a much higher Perception/Initiative (the second highest on the PC side). Individual initiative would be more fair that that (but too tedious). But of course the standard 'sides' method will still have this phenomena at times, as the low initiative characters benefit from the highest on their side. I really don't see any huge problems with doing it your way if you plan your encounters accordingly.

My method, which is based on Dex+Per, skews it even more than RAW for initiative tending to be won by the PC side, but I have embraced that. If the PCs are going up against mooks, add more mooks. The PCs won't likely shoot them all on the first action of the round.

The other thing you should consider is that the 2e combat rules work best when taken as a whole. I suggest caution when Frankensteining different edition combat rules together. Your worry about combat being too easy for PCs with the 2e initiative might be more applicable without all the other 2e rules. In 2e, dodge works differently than 1e. In 2e, a character's first dodge applies to all attacks of that attack type for the rest of the round (and thus the first dodge roll is the only one rolled that round). So character's aren't nickel and dimed with MAPs by having to roll a dodge for each shot. This actually closes the gap of one advantage PCs have over most NPC opponents in 1e - Since NPC opponents tend to be less skilled than PCs in all editions, in 2e NPCs are less affected by maps than they are compared to 1e when they have to roll a dodge for each attack. So in 2e you'd find that when PCs win initiative they don't always take out their opponents so quick.

1e combat is wonky. The Rules Upgrade and Rule Companion do get a bit better, but combat was overhauled in 2e. I had run 1e since 1988, but when 2e came out in 1992, I rejoiced at the improvements to combat. In my opinion, 2e handles it much better. If 1e is appealing to you for the simplicity of it (the number #1 reason I've seen), I would suggest giving the Introductory Adventure Game a look. It takes the system innovations of 2e back to a simplicity similar to 1e. It's the best of both worlds.
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a derivation of that idea when I was running Star Wars. I had all of the players roll for initiative, and then I rolled for initiative for each "grouping" of enemies.

I recorded all of the values, and then resolved them from highest to lowest. That usually resulted in the players getting two, sometimes 3 characters to act before the first group of baddies acted.

I didn't have initiative rolls every round, as that became too cumbersome. Instead, I kept the same values and same order of resolution until there was a "significant change" that could alter the situation. So if another group of baddies showed up, that could "swing the initiative" and result in a new initiative roll. Or if another player character or two showed up, a new roll would be made. Or if a third faction showed up, a new initiative roll.

It worked for me for years doing it this way. There was still the players determining their own initiative, but it kept things fluid in terms of it not being "all one side or all the other".
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always done each PC with their own initiative and each grouping of enemies with an initiative roll. Every single round.

I don't see how other people find it cumbersome.

I adapted a bit of Shadow Run 2e as well.

When its initiative, everyone tells me what they got and I jot it down. Highest goes first. If a character is taking multiple actions, I just subtract 10 from that character's total after each action. Whoever has the next highest goes next.

If the next highest was the character who already acted still, and he has a second action he goes again...then subtract another 10 from his initiative total if he has a 3rd action lined up.

When everyone has completed all their actions...repeat.

It's quick like clockwork if your players know the drill.

I've added in special talents and techniques that can modify initiative, such as a quick draw that lets you take a die off your blaster attack roll and add it to your initiative.

Or the battle drill technique...if every member of your squad has it and are performing an action they have rehearsed....such as entering a hostile building then everyone can benefit from the highest initiative rolled in the group.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:18 am    Post subject: Re: Initiative/Alternating turn order Reply with quote

udat wrote:

What I thought I might try (and I might include Whill's idea of Initiative as a combo of dex and perception plus pips here) is have the initiative roll decide which side goes first, but only one character on that side gets to act, and then the next side chooses a figure to act, and alternate from there. I think this would suit my players as this is pretty much how the Imperial Assault board game works, except there the Rebels always get the first "activation", and I wondered if any of you had tried anything similar?

Cheers,
Andrew


I've seen it done it in some groups, as each PLAYER rolls his own perception. Setting an order, then the DM did the same for each baddie or groups of baddies..
IE 5 players, vs 1 squad of imperial storm troopers, two of which are grenadiers, 1 a lieutenant, and 1 a heavy weapons guy.. the imperials would get separated into 4 rolls. The LT, the Hvy weapon guy, the two grenadiers and the rest..
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

The other thing you should consider is that the 2e combat rules work best when taken as a whole. I suggest caution when Frankensteining different edition combat rules together. Your worry about combat being too easy for PCs with the 2e initiative might be more applicable without all the other 2e rules. In 2e, dodge works differently than 1e. In 2e, a character's first dodge applies to all attacks of that attack type for the rest of the round (and thus the first dodge roll is the only one rolled that round). So character's aren't nickel and dimed with MAPs by having to roll a dodge for each shot. This actually closes the gap of one advantage PCs have over most NPC opponents in 1e - Since NPC opponents tend to be less skilled than PCs in all editions, in 2e NPCs are less affected by maps than they are compared to 1e when they have to roll a dodge for each attack. So in 2e you'd find that when PCs win initiative they don't always take out their opponents so quick.


That's a good point I hadn't twigged to about 2e combat. Let's assume the players win initiative. Because there's no "action declaration" phase for all characters, when an NPC is shot at their reaction dodge doesn't have any MAP, because they've not done anything yet. That could make them a bit more survivable.

I have already "frankensteined" to a degree, in that I incorporated the "wounded twice" concept from 2e right from the start. I don't think it would be a big jump to move to 2e rules.

Whill wrote:

1e combat is wonky. The Rules Upgrade and Rule Companion do get a bit better, but combat was overhauled in 2e. I had run 1e since 1988, but when 2e came out in 1992, I rejoiced at the improvements to combat. In my opinion, 2e handles it much better. If 1e is appealing to you for the simplicity of it (the number #1 reason I've seen), I would suggest giving the Introductory Adventure Game a look. It takes the system innovations of 2e back to a simplicity similar to 1e. It's the best of both worlds.


I just had a quick look at that - it seems there the players get to go first unless they are surprised. That's certainly simple! Our NPC group has an Ewok and using your Initiative rules, that little furball will roll 7D+2 and will almost always win initiative - just accepting that fact and letting the Rebels act first might help keep the pace up. But then again, he might like winning a dice roll every encounter, so we'll see how it goes Smile
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udat
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grimace wrote:
I did a derivation of that idea when I was running Star Wars. I had all of the players roll for initiative, and then I rolled for initiative for each "grouping" of enemies.

I recorded all of the values, and then resolved them from highest to lowest. That usually resulted in the players getting two, sometimes 3 characters to act before the first group of baddies acted.

I didn't have initiative rolls every round, as that became too cumbersome. Instead, I kept the same values and same order of resolution until there was a "significant change" that could alter the situation. So if another group of baddies showed up, that could "swing the initiative" and result in a new initiative roll. Or if another player character or two showed up, a new roll would be made. Or if a third faction showed up, a new initiative roll.

It worked for me for years doing it this way. There was still the players determining their own initiative, but it kept things fluid in terms of it not being "all one side or all the other".


This could work. My goal is not to get bogged down in book-keeping. Particularly as we are having to play this game remotely online, so microphone/voice quality already plays a part in slowing down the action. The last big combat had a named baddie NPC and a group of cookie-cutter bounty hunters he was leading. The named bad guy might have beaten the PCs for initiative, but they'd probably all get to act before the grunts.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: Initiative/Alternating turn order Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:

I've seen it done it in some groups, as each PLAYER rolls his own perception. Setting an order, then the DM did the same for each baddie or groups of baddies..
IE 5 players, vs 1 squad of imperial storm troopers, two of which are grenadiers, 1 a lieutenant, and 1 a heavy weapons guy.. the imperials would get separated into 4 rolls. The LT, the Hvy weapon guy, the two grenadiers and the rest..


This sounds like a good approach. It fits the fiction nicely as well. A squad of Stormtroopers should act in concert, and so share initiative. It also complements the "combined actions" idea (although I don't use that ability very often for my bad guys).
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

udat wrote:

That's a good point I hadn't twigged to about 2e combat. Let's assume the players win initiative. Because there's no "action declaration" phase for all characters, when an NPC is shot at their reaction dodge doesn't have any MAP, because they've not done anything yet. That could make them a bit more survivable.


That's why even IF the players win initiative, i ask "So do you wish to go first, or second."

SOME actually prefer going 2nd, so they DO GET their full reaction rolls..
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
udat wrote:
That's a good point I hadn't twigged to about 2e combat. Let's assume the players win initiative. Because there's no "action declaration" phase for all characters, when an NPC is shot at their reaction dodge doesn't have any MAP, because they've not done anything yet. That could make them a bit more survivable.

That's why even IF the players win initiative, i ask "So do you wish to go first, or second."

SOME actually prefer going 2nd, so they DO GET their full reaction rolls.

That's a good point. Winning Initiative means you get to choose to go 1st or 2nd. If I think the NPCs might feel they are inferior to the PCs or on the defensive, and they win Initiative, I might have them choose to go second and they get full dice for dodge if shot at. And yes, players do sometimes choose that for that reason too. But most of the time, sides choose to go first if they win Initiative, because hitting first may prevent you from being shot at at all.
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

That's a good point. Winning Initiative means you get to choose to go 1st or 2nd. If I think the NPCs might feel they are inferior to the PCs or on the defensive, and they win Initiative, I might have them choose to go second and they get full dice for dodge if shot at. And yes, players do sometimes choose that for that reason too. But most of the time, sides choose to go first if they win Initiative, because hitting first may prevent you from being shot at at all.


Very true. ITs a tactical decision.
Take full dodges, or try to take enemy out, so you have less shooting you!
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have previously been at tables where we solved initiative a little differently than in the reup book.

We had a "group" Perception score for enemies and individual for players

what we did was assign initiative based on perception score using the 2D/4D norm

4D reacts first
then 3D+2 and 3D+1 etc.

this applies for both players and enemies., though most enemies are group encounters.


if both sides had the same score, lets say 3D+1 then we roll a dice and highest roll goes first.

We also applied -1 to -5 on the roll depending on severity of being flanked etc, but this was more to the GMs Discression
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So rather than rolling, it was based just on the Per rating? Interesting.
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