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Armor Penalties
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 5:19 pm    Post subject: Armor Penalties Reply with quote

A thought on Armor...

I’m sure we’re all aware of how the game stats for armor work: bonus to Soak offset by penalty to Dexterity. However, I’m thinking this is a bit too general.

I’m pretty sure someone has mentioned this in the past (Naaman, I’m almost positive), but perhaps the Armor Dex penalty should be applied to Strength skills and to Dodge/Running, instead.

If you think about it, the main penalizing component of most armor types is going to be the weight, with only the clunkier, joint-armored full suits really justifying a Dexterity penalty. In the case of all the Strength skills, the added weight of lugging around the armor will justify a penalty to Stamina (especially w/r/t the Long Distance Movement rules), Climbing/Jumping and Swimming, as well as Lifting. Penalizing Dodge and Running makes sense for similar reasons.

Thoughts?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Works for me, really. My only objection to the blanket Strength skill penalty would be Brawling.

Maybe a list of "Armor Penalty" skills, rather than a blanket penalty based on attribute? Dodge, Running, Sneak (easy to overcome with some materials, but you're still not going to be as quite or stealthy wearing plasteel plates), Climbing/Jumping, Lifting, Stamina, Swimming, and most Repair skills?
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Maybe a list of "Armor Penalty" skills, rather than a blanket penalty based on attribute? Dodge, Running, Sneak (easy to overcome with some materials, but you're still not going to be as quite or stealthy wearing plasteel plates), Climbing/Jumping, Lifting, Stamina, Swimming, and most Repair skills?

That's the route I may go. Penalty skill list, maybe for each specific suit of armor.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
Maybe a list of "Armor Penalty" skills, rather than a blanket penalty based on attribute? Dodge, Running, Sneak (easy to overcome with some materials, but you're still not going to be as quite or stealthy wearing plasteel plates), Climbing/Jumping, Lifting, Stamina, Swimming, and most Repair skills?

That's the route I may go. Penalty skill list, maybe for each specific suit of armor.


I see the penalties falling into a few categories

Gross motor: Dodge, Running, Climbing/Jumping, Swimming, Sneak. These are the ones penalized because you have a lot of encumbering and restrictive stuff on you.

Fine Motor: Repair skills. These are the ones that are penalized because your hands are restricted by gauntlets.

Encumbrance: Stamina, Lifting. You're carrying a bunch of stuff.

Depending on the armor, you might not have penalties to any or all of these.
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thedemonapostle
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as someone thats worn body armor (us army) i approve of this message.
now that youve opened this can of worms, have fun with it
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fundamnetals of armor is NOT protection, but the balance between Protection and Movement.

We know ffor a fact that even a knight in a full plate of armor could run fast, climb, even do backflips.

To me this is by far a 1D to dex, or a 1D to any skill, but in the few cases we do have armor bulky enough it will be pips only.

I would argue that a light full body armor like the scout trooper armor would have absolutely zero penalites to movement, it is for scouts that rely on movements so any penalty is just silly in that regard.

As to the somewhat bulker stormtrooper tyoe armor, again there si actually nothing but the underlaying bodyglove that would in any way restric movement, and since this is the same on both armors I wiuld even be inclined to remove penalty for this as well, maybe give it a +1 dex penalty.


But as to other skills, I can see a penalty to stamina under certain conditions, be this "endurance" related how fast and long can you run in the armor vs without. here wight will play a part, and I would argune a non trained persson donning said armor would feel the weight, but not someone trained, at least someone trained will far less be hindered by it.

I can see some pip penlties to the most fine movemnts and manipulation of the smallest things, BUT a soldier in the filed will at most remove his gloves to fix his weappn to negate this, a knight in a full plate would simply loosen his gountlets to free fis fingers slightly more and violoa he is done it.

to me it makes zero sense to have much of any penalties to any form of mobility with armor, this is becuse armor is designed not for protection, but for mobility and protection.

I do wonder what reasoning there is behind any such penalties, as they in no way reflect "realism", but a mere game mechanical balance.

Now we are not talking about EOD "bomb suits" as thses are NOT combat armor, and thus not made with mobility in mind.

I would say any full body would have at most 1D penalty, thses being the most primitive and the heaviest of heavies.

A noraml combat armor I would give absolutely zero penalties, as again there is no logic behind issuing them, again becuse armor is designed with maximum balance of protection and balance.

Any "knight in full plate" armor study, video or otherwise research would show that all RPGs out there have gotten armor and movement very very wrong.

What will removing the armor penalties do for game balance? IMO nothing other than make armor useful and an armored opponent truly something to fear, as rthey will do what you do and be protected while doing this,

I wonder if anyone can give me any example of a military armor that hinders movement and is in active use I would dare say they do not and have never existed.

Now again if I was to issue a penalty, it would be on endurace, the type of forced marching, lomg distance running and even climate for the non temperature adhusted armors.
but this would at best be in the 1-2 pip range not more.

In my game I keep most armors with 0 penalty and boy do they actually not rock that much.
A ggeneral Stormtrooper would , soes and should shoot as good as he can and is unhindered by armor, while he is protected. If I look at the stats they become a flat 3D for his strenght with the 2D+1D armor write up, +2D for the heavier and more advanced ones, still only bumping his str to resist damage at par with most heroes 2D-4D range, with the armored trooper falling in the 3D to 4D range and the exceptional 5D for the few troopers with a staggering 4D Str.

In order to make this a little more in touch with the game mechanics I have ruled that the penalty to DEX is becuse the wearer is untrained in armor, and that he is unfamiliar with the electronic systems, like hardley being able to see through the visor, actually understanding the targeting systems and the like, but this will not apply to anyone trained in the use.

A trooper/soldier is trained in armor and negates the penalties by 1/2, while a civilain that never worse armor even when cosplaying clone troopers on empire day would suffer this.

I have made a skill called "armor" and placed it under strenght, this skill negates your armor penalty by the amount of pips you place in it.

A stormtrooper with 2D strenght and an armor giving +1D penalty would spenad 6cp to get his skill to 3D, this would negate his penalty completely

the scout trooper would spend 4, for is +2 penalty, but will still have a +1 penalty "left" if his strenght was 2D.

However once you reach 3D strenght only the heaviest armors will require the soldier to place any pips/dice into the skill as it is a default on all my military templates and npcs.

This the same as with being able to use a "mini gun" type blaster, thes require a certain level of strength to propperly wiled and anyone not at that strength level will suffer or even be unable to wield the gun.

So I would completely remove all armor penalties since they actually do not make much of any sense.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
The fundamnetals of armor is NOT protection, but the balance between Protection and Movement.

We know ffor a fact that even a knight in a full plate of armor could run fast, climb, even do backflips.

*snip*

I do wonder what reasoning there is behind any such penalties, as they in no way reflect "realism", but a mere game mechanical balance.


Right on. The armor dexterity penalties are not representative of any real-world field armor. Tournament armor was a completely different story altogether, which was fairly bulky and impractical for the field, but perfect for its intended purpose. But that's an entirely different subject.

Where does this come from? It's Victorian egotistical presumption based on Hegelian nonsense. Since the fencers (and even historical fencers such as Hutton and Castle) at the time presumed that history was a progression of refinement, their use of the blade was far better. Why was it better? Well, they're more nimble, you see. Because they were so nimble then, they assumed that those that came before were less nimble. Since the sword was larger, it must have been clumsier (which a well-made longsword is certainly not).

The idea of a knight being so heavy that he must be lifted onto a horse with a crane was part of a Victorian farcical comedy. Its depiction on stage became part of the public consciousness to the degree that it's been reported as fact, not fiction.

So, is the Dex penalty verisimilitude? No. By no means. In fact, the prop armor they wear in the movies is likely more restricting than a well-made 15th Century harness. (If what I've heard from members of the 501st is representative of the movie prop armor.)

But I would say that the Dex bonus does serve a purpose. There is the question of why doesn't everyone in Star Wars wear armor? There must be some reason. The game armor adds a reason to not wear it: it's bulky. It's just one way to explain what we see on screen.

Personally, I think the dex bonus is just plain rubbish in terms of depicting reality. But it works for me as a game balancer. I don't mind playing something that's not realistic for my Space Opera.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The obvious counter argument to the knight-in-plate-armor example is that, if they are capable of such feats while wearing armor, they would be even more capable without it. Under this proposal, a knight in full plate doing a backflip would have a Climbing/Jumping of 6D or 7D, hampered by a -1D skill penalty because of the armor.

Someone who can do a backflip under any conditions is going to be pretty athletically inclined anyway; a -1D penalty will be an inconvenience, not a hard cap on physical performance. A character can still do anything in armor that they could do without armor; it’s just slightly harder.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They actually did a study on how encumbering full kit is for a firefighter, a soldier, and a medieval knight. The latter was obviously a reproduction.

Yes. The gear is an encumbrance. Just not as much so as in the public imagination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAzI1UvlQqw

It's worth watching the video and reading the study to see what skills you think would be worth penalizing.

Though I think the real takeway from the video is "don't mess with Swiss firefighters."
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I the armor penalyt was on only certain skills then ok, but I dare anyone to explain how armor makes you a worse shot?

While some movement may in some cases be hindered, it is not hindered to the extent of the rules.

I would say again this is about training and familiarity.

I f I put on a modern army battle armor, I would be hampered, but if I had trained in wearing this.

I never soldiers strip out their armor to shoot better.

and I would say that the argument presented about the validity of the 1D raised above is falwed, as any trained person will be better at climbing or backflipping than any untrained person, regardless of clothing....and yes armor is clothing, protective clothing but still clothing.

Now if there was only a penalty to the most "fine motoric" movements and skills I would be ok with it, but as the rules are a flat 0 penalty is more logical than any penalty, after all in SWD& there are zero benefits from armor with this drastic penalty, and in all fairness armor is and should be better than no armor in almost anything other than taking a shower.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
They actually did a study on how encumbering full kit is for a firefighter, a soldier, and a medieval knight. The latter was obviously a reproduction.

Yes. The gear is an encumbrance. Just not as much so as in the public imagination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAzI1UvlQqw

It's worth watching the video and reading the study to see what skills you think would be worth penalizing.

Though I think the real takeway from the video is "don't mess with Swiss firefighters."



Turns out the "steel suit" knight scored higher than both the moden firefighter and the modern soldier, but in less actual weight carried and theri performance,

One important thing to consider in this deabte, is trained in armor vs untrained in armor...........THIS is where the actual differnces are and should be.

Any and all "trooper" type characters should have a "armor familiarity" special ability, that imo completely negates all penalties on all but the bulkiest of bulky armor, like spcae trooper armor and speace suits, eod suits, but less than that, no penalty.

On the untrained person however this penalty fits, and should be there, it makes a little sense even the way it is written, and even though donning a comabt armor makes you less accurate and a "lesser" adept soldier.

But a spaecuila ability "armor familiarity" would maybe be the best way to go about this, simply distinguish betweeen the trained and untrained giving one no penalties and the oter the "standard" penalties.


and as to the bulkiness of the armor, I dont think we see any exaples of this.....espcially not here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax7tmaYObIQ
My bet is this the same armors as the type actually used by the actors in star wars.........just saying
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:

Now if there was only a penalty to the most "fine motoric" movements and skills I would be ok with it, but as the rules are a flat 0 penalty is more logical than any penalty, after all in SWD& there are zero benefits from armor with this drastic penalty, and in all fairness armor is and should be better than no armor in almost anything other than taking a shower.


I would say that this is all well and good. But it does leave one major question. Why doesn't everyone in Star Wars wear armor? We know that the answer to that before the prevalence of firearms was expense. Even until the last 20 years the reason why we didn't use it often on the modern battlefield was because of the expense.

If you were to remove the Dex penalty, would you institute a "wallet penalty?" Smile
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Mamatried wrote:

Now if there was only a penalty to the most "fine motoric" movements and skills I would be ok with it, but as the rules are a flat 0 penalty is more logical than any penalty, after all in SWD& there are zero benefits from armor with this drastic penalty, and in all fairness armor is and should be better than no armor in almost anything other than taking a shower.


I would say that this is all well and good. But it does leave one major question. Why doesn't everyone in Star Wars wear armor? We know that the answer to that before the prevalence of firearms was expense. Even until the last 20 years the reason why we didn't use it often on the modern battlefield was because of the expense.

If you were to remove the Dex penalty, would you institute a "wallet penalty?" Smile



How many in Sar Wars have acess to military equipment, not just an expensive suit of armor, but targeting systems, and even weaponry, I mean we still see melee weapons both axes polearms and swords.......why do people use this?

I am still in favor of a special ability type trait to wear armor for those that are trained in it.

to buy one, I would assume there will both "crime" and a rigid bueraucracy involved, as the question is why done everyone on earth have machineguns and military body armor and targeting systems?

Yes is cost and availability, though there are referances that some such armors (clone trooper armor, that imo is not very different) was actually given away, though in smaller numbers.

As to stormtrooper armor this is hard to "hide" and thus you are also exposed to controls and should be a trooper or legally allowed to have this.

I would say that the armors and most if not all "military" equipment should be generally unavilable even illegal for civilians.


Again we can look to the world today, where we have militia/Guerilla vs well equipped National Military units. Taliban vs NATO is one such example.

it is about availiability. more than wanting to have one or the ability to learn to use one.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:



How many in Sar Wars have acess to military equipment, not just an expensive suit of armor, but targeting systems, and even weaponry, I mean we still see melee weapons both axes polearms and swords.......why do people use this?


This is true. There is a lot in Star Wars that favors aesthetic and flavor over bare practicality.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Why doesn't everyone in Star Wars wear armor?

From observing the films alone, the obvious answer is that armor doesn't seem to help much if any.

Maybe a lot of those stormtroopers that fell down with a smoking hole in their armor's chest plate aren't dead, and the armor made the difference between incapacitated and mortally wounded or killed. So maybe the armor allows them to be healed and continue serving the Empire again. I think the primary purpose of stormtrooper armor is the psychological intimidation that a mass of these armored soldiers gives, and hiding the identity of the soldiers also gives the soldiers themselves less qualms about committing atrocities in the name of the Empire. In light of the PT it may also project the illusion of the more skilled clone army that defeated the Jedi Rebellion (It makes them as identical as possible despite them being of various heights within a certain range).

There still seems to be some physical damage resistance because Ewoks were repeatedly pounding on stormtroopers who grunted with pain (maybe stun damage). The single time in 11 films where armor seemed to help with blasters was in TLJ when Phasma's armor seemed to actually deflect a glancing blaster bolt. In my game, to better reflect the verisimilitude of the films, I reduced regular stormtrooper armor's bonus to energy damage resistance to only be +1 pip. With the prevalence of energy weapons, the reasons to wear armor would seem to be the other non-damage reasons.
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