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Darklighter79
Captain
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 529
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 Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | If this argument had been coherent, I'd counter by saying you're inventing a statistic in order to commit an Argumentum Ad Populum Fallacy, but instead, I'll just say, "Huh?" |
To not get "Ouch" and "Oops"?
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | No, all sources are not consistent, and those that are consistent with your stance are either ignorant of or in violation of basic physics. By the same token, it's impossible to actually reach lightspeed in realspace. A dimensional shift accompanied by an optical illusion that looks like a massive burst of acceleration neatly sidesteps the physics problem, and is also consistent with the fact that, no matter what any game fluff may say, none of the three gaming companies that have espoused this fallacy at varying times have ever actually accounted for it in their rule set; specifically, in all existing rule systems, a ship is not required to accelerate for X# of SUs (or their equivalent) along a specific flight path, with the attendant potential hazard of running into objects in realspace, before it enters hyperspace. |
Rule set are outdated due to new films and series. Still, applying basic physics to SW, is like going to a slaughterhouse for a philosophical discourse. Hence, the sci-fi authors came up with fantastic technologies and materials like hypermatter or tachyons so there can be a suspension of disbelief.
All the rpg sources say vaguely "accelerating to and beyond" without getting into much detail. More details were in other sources with a typical technobabble:
| Quote: | | To enter hyperspace, the hyperdrive's horizontal boosters would provide energy to the motivator's ionization chamber to begin ignition that would release the radiation through the alluvial dampers. The energy release caused ripples in the space-time matrix, allowing the ship to propel off the ripples into hyperspace - YT-1300 Corellian Freighter Owner's Workshop Manual |
I believe that no one interpreted breaking the barrier as simply reaching light speed due to regular acceleration.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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This is a friendly reminder to all: Do not ignore my posts.
I was nice in my last post in this thread. I referred to a disturbing past incident on this forum in a punny way, but the reference was very intentional as it is very applicable to what is happening in this thread. It was a friendly warning for history to not repeat itself.
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | Still, applying basic physics to SW, is like going to a slaughterhouse for a philosophical discourse. Hence, the sci-fi authors came up with fantastic technologies and materials like hypermatter or tachyons so there can be a suspension of disbelief. |
Yes, and fans each have their own personal criteria for what works as disbelief suspension and what doesn't. Lucas is no scientist but he is a smart guy in general. He understood and embraced some basic scientific realities such as moons being inhabitable by Earth-like lifeforms have to be roughly Earth-sized moons of gas giants. Lucas also embraced the facts that you can't have a galactic civilization without FTL of some kind, ships can't reach the speed of light in realspace because it would take all the energy in the universe to achieve that, and ships can't travel relativistic speeds in realspace without time dilation occurring. Lucas intentionally stayed away from warp drive because that's what Star Trek used. That left him with borrowing the sci-fi trope of hyperspace, another dimension with different laws of physics for FTL travel and relativistic speeds during acceleration/deceleration, a dimension that is exited and entered directly from non-relativistic speeds. That is the whole point of hyperspace in the first place. If you could travel relativistic speeds in realspace without time dilation, or reach and exceed the speed of light in realspace (these things only being possible by a Trek kind of space warp), then you wouldn't even need hyperspace. Lucas gets it. What we see in the film for entering and exiting hyperspace is just for cool effect, and Lucas let the EU explain it. This explanation for lightspeed and hyperspace works for most Star Wars fans who bother to consider such things.
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | All other sources are consistent with one thing: to enter the hyperspace, one must break the barrier of lightspeed. It's impossible to be in hyperspace at lower than lightspeed. |
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | All the rpg sources say vaguely "accelerating to and beyond" without getting into much detail. |
All other sources? No, they aren't consistent with that one thing.
Not only are you continuing argument with falsehoods, but I personally already refuted this to you directly. I do not appreciate being ignored.
You can have it work any way you want to work in your Star Wars universe. No one is saying that spaceships can't accelerate to and exceed the speed of light in realspace in your SWU. But there is a difference between just stating your preference on the matter, and continually arguing that your view is the correct one for other fans. If we accept your freedom to have it work how you want it to in your SWU, you have to accept that others have it work differently in theirs. Freedom for each fan to chose works both ways.
Another problem with your arguing about this is that you are not even clearly stating why your view is important to you. Those of us who oppose have stated very clearly why we do. [This includes but is not limited to: (1) Our way does not violates real world physics for realspace, (2) The WEG SW RPG game rules in every iteration have always supported instantaneous entry into hyperspace from non-relativistic sublight speeds, (3) Zahn based his groundbreaking works of the EU on the WEG game and entered a technobabble explanation into continuity for what we see in the films supporting this way, and this way of lightspeed travel was even brought through the fire to the Disney Canon universe. (4) Most other sources (both EU and Canon) support this way.] I am suspicious of someone who continually argues about something without even stating why it is important to them. One reason someone would do this that I have ran into here before is when someone just enjoys arguing and argues for the sake of arguing - This kind of trollish "devil's advocacy" is not cool and not acceptable here. But assuming the best and this is not the case here, I can only see one other possible explanation here...
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | No longer valid after TLJ and RiseotS - assuming that during pseudo-motion ships were already in hyperspace. |
I pulled this from a recent post in another thread...
| Darklighter79 wrote: | | Rule set are outdated due to new films and series. |
Here it is. You are arguing from the position of film supremacy over the game. But not just a general one. You are specifically arguing that the changes introduced in 2017 and 2019 non-Lucas films should override this game originally published 1987-1998. Pseudomotion was invented in 1991 and still exists in the canon universe. This a gigantic franchise so no, it is not always going to be consistent and there will be internal contradictions in the continuity. As fans, we are all free to choose a side of these contradictions or make up our own explanations.
As fans we are all also free to choose which parts of the franchise are in our personal head canons and which parts we disregard. It is not an uncommon position among WEG gamers to ignore the PT, so I accept that I am in a minority there. It is a more common position that the DT largely contradicts the rest of the entire franchise (including even the rest of the canon one) on many things, so these three films are often disregarded as wholes. (I cherry pick the parts of the DT films that I like and leave the rest burning in the dumpster fire.) No, the these films do NOT invalidate my rules for my game that takes place in my universe, or anyone else's, if they don't want it to. I find that statement that it does to be rather offensive. You are not going to find many Rancor Pitters that feel TLJ and TRoS require the game rules for jumping to lightspeed to be rewritten.
I only know of a single other forum user who shares your position on lightspeed, and he hasn't posted here in a couple years. Since you didn't join the forum until after this issue blew up in a thread right before you joined, I feel it is fair to give you a pass for violating the second post shared below. I do hold you responsible to read both of these posts now.
https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=181916#181916
https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=181953#181953
You have stated what your view is clearly, and it is more apparent now why you feel that way. Create your own updated rules for jumping to lightspeed for your game that work better with your view of TLJ and TRoS. But I am not dealing with this on these forums again. This serves is an official cease-and-desist order for arguing for TLJ+TRoS-based lightspeed rules and trying to change anyone else's mind. You will please give that up now. Failure to comply with this warning will result in further actions. I have spoken.
Everyone, please continue discussing the Acceleration vs Top Speed OP in this thread, but the argument about acceleration for lightspeed jumps taking place in realspace is over. Thank you.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | 1) The "all out speed" as given in the rules is not an indicator of the vehicle's absolute top speed, but rather the "average top end" capability before accounting for specific variables. |
That can be safely assumed without messing with the stats. Of course, I'd also need to figure out what numerical bonus would be applied to Vehicles, since their Move values are a bit less numerically clear than that of characters or starships.
| Quote: | | 2) The vehicle's stats use some sort of numerical or bracketed value which limits how fast it can accelerate (gain speed) that is separate from its actual top speed. |
This reminded me of another house rule I've published (in the Adventurer's Journal) about applying Scale to Acceleration. Basically, for every Step of Scale difference, the larger vehicle would take twice as long to move up the various steps of acceleration.
So, for example, if a Starfighter were racing a Speeder (again, using my system), they'd be one Scale step apart. Both would start at 0, but (depending on how you wanted to rule it), either the Starfighter would take 2 rounds to accelerate to Cautious, then a further 2 rounds to accelerate to Cruise, and so on and so forth, the Speeder would only need one round between scale steps. However, the Starfighter would have a much higher top speed, and would ultimately outpace the Speeder, even though the Speeder got off to a quicker start.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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