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Order 66.. How many jedi survived?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:10 am    Post subject: Order 66.. How many jedi survived? Reply with quote

Seeing Whill's response to a question i asked, and many other threads on the subject of how many jedi they seem to have that survived, makes me wonder.. HOW many jedi DID survive the purge?? 100? 400?? Any actual records out there?
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's an interesting question. I've never really thought about it in terms of numerical values. I'd always kind of thought about it in terms of plot. What does the game necessitate? If I was GMing in the E.III-E.IV era, I would have smaller groups of Jedi that the party would meet up with, but they were dwinding during the post-Order 66 cleanup.

During the Classic Rebellion era, I would have the Jedi be pretty rare, with the quest goal of meeting up with a former Jedi.

Though if we were to come up with a numerical value, I guess the first question would be just how many Jedi were there at the time of Order 66?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always looked at it in the light of how many Jedi were near the troops when the order went out.

If you say ALL Jedi were directly involved in combat leading troops etc, then almost all of them.

If you have some Jedi not around troupes - on diplomatic counselor etc mission - or that there were still some Jedi evolved in protection and guardians of peace and justice like they were before the war, or that you have a fair number of Jedi following the living force mindset (like Qui-Gon) and not being in lock step with the Jedi counsel's guidance so they weren't as easy targets …. Hmmm also, if you have some clones not get 66 when it goes out or able to resist it

With any of those options you could have a comparable fair amount of Jedi living through 66

However, like Cheshire said, it all starts with how many are there to begin with
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Consider that you also have groups like the Explorer Corps who might have been well away from Clone Troopers, in addition to being armed and set up for long excursions away from civilization.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
That's an interesting question. I've never really thought about it in terms of numerical values. I'd always kind of thought about it in terms of plot.


Which is something i often get puzzled about... If all the lore seems to indicate the purge was almost completely successful, then having dozens upon dozens of jedi who 'somehow survived' puts a big smack, on that lore..
BUT the empier was well known for 'inflating' things!!

cheshire wrote:

Though if we were to come up with a numerical value, I guess the first question would be just how many Jedi were there at the time of Order 66?


Very true. Not counting those in the agricore, or the younglings, how many were out in the fields? how many were in admin like positions (such as Nokcosta (the librarian)?
AFAIK, we just don't know.

lurker wrote:
Hmmm also, if you have some clones not get 66 when it goes out or able to resist it


And that's a big kicker.. That one squad of rogue troops by lore, was supposed to be a unique anomaly. If it 'happened t dozens of others', it makes what happened to that one group, no longer a 'very rare and special thing'...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troops in a coms blackout with their Jedi leaders might not get Order 66 before the Jedi get the "Scatter" code from Obi-Wan, they wouldn't be rogue, they'd just be late to the party.

"Captain, we just got a communication from Palpatine! Order 66 has been declared."

*Looks at Jedi Starfighters going in the general direction of away*

"Well... That explains what THEIR message was about then."
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray wrote:
Troops in a coms blackout with their Jedi leaders might not get Order 66 before the Jedi get the "Scatter" code from Obi-Wan, they wouldn't be rogue, they'd just be late to the party.

"Captain, we just got a communication from Palpatine! Order 66 has been declared."

*Looks at Jedi Starfighters going in the general direction of away*

"Well... That explains what THEIR message was about then."


Hilarious and totally believable!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray wrote:
Troops in a coms blackout with their Jedi leaders might not get Order 66 before the Jedi get the "Scatter" code from Obi-Wan, they wouldn't be rogue, they'd just be late to the party.

"Captain, we just got a communication from Palpatine! Order 66 has been declared."

*Looks at Jedi Starfighters going in the general direction of away*

"Well... That explains what THEIR message was about then."


I couldn't have said it better myself !

A com window missed, encryption coding lost or misloaded, a coax cable broken, an antenna knocked over, any number of things can delay a transmission long enough for a Jedi to get the emergency radio warning or even get a feeling like Yoda did .

That said it isn't a get out of jail free scenario for all Jedi, but it does give good plausible reasons for there to be survivor Jedi hiding in the game
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Order 66.. How many jedi survived? Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Seeing Whill's response to a question i asked, and many other threads on the subject of how many jedi they seem to have that survived, makes me wonder.. HOW many jedi DID survive the purge?? 100? 400?? Any actual records out there?

I'm pretty sure no canon works will quantify that with a firm number. However many there were, we know most Jedi were killed in Order 66, which is the only way the Empire could rise without much resistance. The Jedi Purge is canon in both official universes, where Vader and a bunch of Inquisitors hunted down a lot of the remaining Jedi in the early Empire. That leaves with you with... not many Jedi.

In my SWU, I add a year to the timeline right after RotS. During this time, there are a couple major rebellions during this time that both involve clones vs. clones (and to help explain why RotS refers to the clone war in the singular while in ANH Luke and Leia refer to Clone Wars in the plural). The response you referenced in another thread refers to an idea I had where a large clone trooper unit had recently been subjected to radiation that damaged the biochip that was to make them follow Order 66, and when the order came most of them didn't. The Jedi who were with them, and some other Jedi stragglers who survived from around the galaxy, figured out that the clone army's purpose was to destroy the Jedi and that it must have been a plot by Palpatine so joined together to fight against the Empire, which gives us clonetroopers vs. clonetroopers. They were defeated and their Jedi were mostly wiped out by the end of that conflict. So in the end, no additional huge numbers added to the Jedi survivors.

One factor to consider is that overconfidence is a Lucas villain flaw (Tarkin, Maul, etc.). In ANH, Tarkin expressed doubt that Obi-Wan was even still alive. In light of all the films, I feel it makes the most sense that this belief would be based on the premise that if Kenobi had not died he would have revealed himself and attempted to destroy the Sith long before then. Of course, they did not know that he had a reason to stay hidden, because they did not know that Anakin had any children who survived Padmé's death. The Empire could have underestimated the number of Jedi who had been destroyed.

I do think that the Emperor would be worried that two of the most powerful Jedi Masters were not accounted for, but based on TESB I think the Emperor knew they were not raising/training a new Jedi order wherever they were hiding. TESB is a few years after ANH, but the Emperor suddenly feels that they have a new enemy in Skywalker. The Emperor called Vader to tell him this not long after Luke went to Dagobah. So it seems that the Emperor has the magical power to feel when someone powerful in the Force will soon begin Jedi training. This would also explain why Luke and Leia were not trained from birth, because Yoda felt that the twins would have the best chance of surviving to adulthood and become a threat to the Sith if they weren't trained as children. This is contrary to Jedi philosophy but it would not be lost on Yoda that paradigm had failed the Jedi. So the Sith may have felt that the only reason Yoda and Obi-Wan would not turn up to kill them or train new Jedi is because they were dead or stranded in some system without hyperdrive.

In my SWU, Yoda is not omniscient but RotJ has the most dramatic weight if Yoda saying, "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be" is true. Not that they aren't a number of padawan-level Jedi in the galaxy, but that Luke is the only near-Knight level Jedi by that point. So any Knights who survived Order 66 are dead by RotJ. And I also really don't like the idea that any Masters survived to the classic era except Yoda and Kenobi, so they are the only two masters that make it to ANH. I think hunting down any surviving Jedi Masters would be Vader's priority in between trilogies.

Like others have said, a new published story's plot (or RPG group adventure's plot) determines if there is a need for there to be a new Jedi that is said to have survived Order 66. There is no reason to limit a total number in advance. In other words, there should be whatever number of Jedi who survived Order 66 as you feel there should be for your game.
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Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the "Learned Lesson" universe I was running for my group, the Failed Jedi character lost his connection to the Force through the bottom of a bottle. In fact, it wasn't until his character had kicked the habit before I let him increase any of his Force Abilities.

And by then, those Force abilities had atrophied to the point where he was useless with a lightsaber, despite that having been his most powerful ability during the Clone Wars.

Hilariously, it was a Hyperdrive Mishap that caused him to dry out (half a bottle of scotch does not last over a month when you're a heavy drinker!), along with having a new purpose in life to keep off the bottle. Considering the fact that I literally wrote the book on addiction for Shadowrun, the player agreed with me on the subject, even if his "drying out" was more of a montage than it was a series of harder and harder choices.

The really hard part was getting the lightsaber out of his hands when he started seeing snakes from the DTs.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray wrote:
Troops in a coms blackout with their Jedi leaders might not get Order 66 before the Jedi get the "Scatter" code from Obi-Wan, they wouldn't be rogue, they'd just be late to the party.

"Captain, we just got a communication from Palpatine! Order 66 has been declared."

*Looks at Jedi Starfighters going in the general direction of away*

"Well... That explains what THEIR message was about then."


LOLL..

I can see a few squads here and there, maybe getting the message late, but not getting it not at all..

Whill wrote:
One factor to consider is that overconfidence is a Lucas villain flaw (Tarkin, Maul, etc.). In ANH, Tarkin expressed doubt that Obi-Wan was even still alive. In light of all the films, I feel it makes the most sense that this belief would be based on the premise that if Kenobi had not died he would have revealed himself and attempted to destroy the Sith long before then. Of course, they did not know that he had a reason to stay hidden, because they did not know that Anakin had any children who survived Padmé's death. The Empire could have underestimated the number of Jedi who had been destroyed.


Oh i can Definitely see that from Tarkin, and many other moffs.. BUT not the inquisitors, or vader himself.. They'd wanna see bodies..

Whill wrote:
So the Sith may have felt that the only reason Yoda and Obi-Wan would not turn up to kill them or train new Jedi is because they were dead or stranded in some system without hyperdrive.


That sounds like the plot of one of my modules. THe emperor KNEW a jedi master and some of his crew, were stranded on a planet, but since the planet' upper atmosphere FRIED electronics, no ship could leave (or so he thought).. SO cared not that they were there.. They were effectively trapped.

Ray wrote:
In the "Learned Lesson" universe I was running for my group, the Failed Jedi character lost his connection to the Force through the bottom of a bottle. In fact, it wasn't until his character had kicked the habit before I let him increase any of his Force Abilities.

And by then, those Force abilities had atrophied to the point where he was useless with a lightsaber, despite that having been his most powerful ability during the Clone Wars.


DOH..
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, the first question that needs to be answered before we can saw "How many survived" is "How many were alive"?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The answer to that is easy.. 42! Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
The answer to that is easy.. 42! Laughing Laughing


LOL!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone tried to pin down an answer for my game, I'd give him this:

For the direct Order 66, there were dozens of Jedi who managed to avoid being killed by the clones. However, out of those dozens of survivors, Vader and other Jedi Hunters (Inquisitors, etc.) began slowly tracking them down and eliminating them.

By the time of the original Star Wars, there was less than 5 remaining in the entire galaxy. Of those 5 or less, most never used the Force to avoid causing "ripples" that could be tracked by Vader and his goons.

Of those "Less than 5", you have Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda. Obi Wan dies on the first Death Star. But by The Empire Strikes Back, there is a replacement being trained by Yoda (Luke Skywalker). By Return of the Jedi, there is basically only ONE active Jedi left in the galaxy, as Yoda passes away. There may be OTHER Jedi still alive, but they either do not take any sort of active role in the galaxy. Either they have forgotten how to really use the Force, or they have given up the dream of what being a Jedi was all about.

So the answer for me would be "Less than 5".
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