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The error of a missed award (or penalty)
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At first, i was going to say, no dsp eitherway, but after reading this

Quote:
Ok, I will clarify things for some of the questions:
Endwyn wrote:
Quote:
Do you allow players to declare actions like "I backhand the prisoner. Cap damage at a wound."?


Not in essence, but I do let people "pull their punch" to reduce the strength used in determining wounds. Which I did ask the Gand, and he said no, he wasn't pulling it. He was mad because the prisoner had spit on him, and wanted the prisoner to suffer.


I change my mind. The gand does deserve one, and so should the jedi for not stopping it.

Quote:
And this is the heart of my concern. It wasn't whether I felt DSP were needed, as I feel they were and I didn't hand them out, it was how to address it now, after the fact. It has already caused contention, as the third player earned a DSP in a previous game for a similar act. As I do not know him as well, he know feels I may be playing favorites. That was not my intent. I have talked to the players of the Gand, and the Jedi, and the Gand said he expected a DSP at the time, and would have no contention with adding it. The player of the Jedi is not so understanding. I will probably gather all of the players, even the third, and ask them to vote on how to handle this, and ask them to reason it out... At least then, all of them will have a say, and all of them can express their concerns.


How i would handle it, is not to give one out after the fact, but the next time they do something that MIGHT get them one, have the Dark side act retroactively and give them one on the spot.
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Sabre
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
How i would handle it, is not to give one out after the fact, but the next time they do something that MIGHT get them one, have the Dark side act retroactively and give them one on the spot.


That's a good idea, I think. Sort of a 'gradual fall', where they didn't earn a full DSP, but they do have a blackmark in the GM's book that tells you 'next time I see a marginal case they get it'. Warning them of that may be particularly effective in getting them to watch their actions a little more closely in the next session.

The thing about the third guy with the DSP is troublesome too. Especially since the Jedi won't take his DSP after the fact, when if anyone else should have one, he should have two.

I would avoid having the players vote. By all means get their inputs, but having them vote might lead to a 'You voted against me' kind of sentiment between the players. You've got votes from a lot of board members here on who should get DSPs or not, you could fairly tell the players "I consulted some other GMs and it looks like you earned some DSPs, what do you think?" That way you get feedback and respond to it, you didn't make the decision randomly on your own, and you maintain control of your game as GM. It's never pretty when you have to tell someone "your character is dead" or "you get a DSP for that" and sometimes there are tantrums, but if they don't see the other players as having been part of that decision, they won't hold a grudge against them, so it'll be easaier to talk down any flaring tempers.
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Endwyn
Commander
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Joined: 22 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Jedi's player isn't willing to accept a DSP after talking to him, you run the risk of running him off. What Hellcat said will apply even stronger now, especially if you have the group vote on it. If the group votes, these are the problems you'll run into:

1. The Jedi player will feel as though everyone's ganging up on him.
2. The vote will probly break down between people voting based on facts and the others that will vote based on emotion (friendship, spite, what's everyone else gonna think, ect)
3. The group will think they collectivly have control of DSP's when they shouldn't.

I would talk to the Jedi's player prior to the other game and explain to him what's going on. I don't know what the 3rd PC did to get his DSP a couple sessions ago; but be candid and honest with the Jedi's player. Tell him that you do normally give out DSP's for stuff like that, but you failed to give it to him at the time, and that is a mistake you have to live with since you didn't. Tell him that the 3rd player feels that you are using your GM status and playing favorites and that's the last way you want a player to feel. Tell him that the whole situation has backed you into a corner since if you don't give him a DSP the 3rd player will feel unfair treatment, and if you do that he (the Jedi's player) will be upset to recieve a retroactive DSP.

Pause, and give him a chance to say if would take it or not. Don't pause too long, you don't want it to get ackward or seem that you are pushing him into accepting it. Pause just long enough for him to start talking if he has something to say. If he doesn't say anything, tell him you honestly don't know what would be the best solution, and ask for his opinion. Know what you think is good - this might become a plea bargain. Perhaps he says his Jedi will behave better and that he will act X for Y amount of time. Perhaps he's willing to start atoning if you don't award the DSP, but the atoning will be of a lesser scale.

In this situation, take what you can get. Try to compromise, let him think it's his idea if possible, and thank him for being mature and understanding your dilema if he is productive. Start the session by telling the 2 players infront of the third "Did you remember the things we talked about for your characters because of what they did last adventure." Those two should say yes, and the problem is solved.

To be honest though, I still wouldn't give the Jedi a DSP for the coffee cup thing if he didn't do it out of anger or with the intent to truely hurt them. Since his intention was just to knock him out. Not the brightest idea, but in WEG each DSP is a crucial counter to the Dark side. on average it only takes 4 to turn, and if you only count Anakin's big ones from the movie you get 5: (Tuskin raider slaughter, Emotional attack on Dooku (2 movies), killing helpless Dooku, attacking Mace Windu (which was emotional)) Those are the big things, if you counted all the small ones too, it would be much higher. Of course, I'm sure he attoned, but I'm looking at scale. Just my explination why I wouldn't hold this stupid act, done recklessly against him with a DSP.
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Gry Sarth
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Joined: 25 May 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wanted to relate a little bit of my recent experience with DSP, it might shed some light on the matter.

A couple of adventures ago, I gave the Young Jedi in the group his 1st DSP. He was always a goody goody jedi, but lately he was getting a bit reckless and impulsive. He'd just been through some intense jedi training which brought him from a lowly padawan to an almost capable knight, so he was dealing with his newfound power. Here's how it went:

One night in the Mos Eisley cantina he was accused of being a spy for the Jawas and was thrown out by a big whiphid. I decided the thug was only gonna rough him up a little and then leave him alone. But when the thug punches him, he draws his saber and hurts him back, so it deranges into a vicious brawl. The whiphid ends up sliced in two (this damned high saber damage). I find that pretty ghastly and consider giving him a DSP, but I reason that he didn't know his life wasn't in danger, so he was acting in self defense. However, since it was a very thoughtless way to behave I give him 1/2 a DSP in my head.

Another adventure he senses someone approaching from behind, blaster in hand, reads its mind and hear the aggresive thoughts: "Here's this Dan, now he'll pay me", he quicly draws his saber and chops of the attacker's hand (OB1 style). He then discovers that it was a girl who he'd conned out of a bunch of credits a long time ago. She just wanted her money back, and had no intention whatsoever of killing him. Another reckless and thoughtless action by the Jedi. Chopping a hand in "self defense" wouldn't get him a DSP, but considering the circumstances, I conlcude it's worth the other 1/2 DSP and so I give him 1 point.

He squirms and complains but accepts it. And then things get a LOT more interesting. I tell him that from that point on he feels a small shadow creeping inside his soul. It's a well of anger, frustration, fear and hatred, and when he lets this shadow fill his mind, he can feel his powers surging, his senses focusing, his connection to the force strengthening. The more he opens himself to that inner shadow, the more those sensations grow, and so does the power. When he tries to subdue these negative feeling, it takes a concious effort to do so, and he notices that it takes away a bit of his concentration to use the force, making the connection more difficult. In game terms I'm saying that he has an extra +1D available to all force rolls, but if he does anything slightly questionable while accepting this bonus, he'll get another DSP. If he refuses the bonus, all difficulties are raised one level. All according to the rules, and what a great rule this is!

From that point on he was constantly struggling with the Dark Side, sometime giving in more to it and accepting the bonus, sometimes feeling guilty about it and refusing the bonus, which made all his actions quite difficult and made him fail a number of times where he would succeed. He was also capable of some amazing deeds when letting his pride and frustration take control of him, like raising a huge YT-2000 from the swamp to save the occupants, which earned him much fame. The player roleplayed it all beautifully and it added A LOT to the game, the other PCs were a little scared of his behaviour, but also awed at his power. It was great. he managed to walk the thin line and never get another DSP, but he amazingly resisted and denied the dark side bonus on the entire deadly saber duel with the campaign nemesis. And so he's now atoning to remove the dark taint from his soul.

What I'm saying is, DSP gives a great twist to a character, if played correctly. The rules work wonderfully.
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KageRyu
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Joined: 06 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First I want to thank everyone for their input, even if I disagreed with you, I appreciate you taking time to answer.

In the last three some verry good points were brought up. When I was considering allowing the players to vote and discuss how to handle this, I was planning on making it clear it was for this instance only, not DSPs overall. I sometimes do this for the RolePlay CP awards at the end of a session...ask the characters who they though best played in character, whose character was most useful at X task, etc...
However, you are quite right, it could just push the players back to bickering with the "Why'd you vote for me to get a DSP". Since it took three adventures for them to finally stop doing that, I really don't want to go down that road. I still have a few days to figure this out before our next adventure.

Since the Gand player agreed he deserved one and didn't argue, and he is more confident with the system (and understands GMs forget things sometimes) I think I have decided his fate is sealed. Since no one is certain the Jedi deserves one (even though I feel his recklessness is leading him to the dark side) I think maybe I can let him off with a strict warning, especially since I already know there will probably be repercussions for him anyway (when his Jedi master sees the Holo-recording of the interrogation). I will give the Jedi player a stern warning (in character from his master I think) that his recklessness will lead him to the darkside, and he must learn patience and control of his emotions. I think this might be a fair an equitable solution, and I think all of my players will agree to abide by the ruling.

garhkal wrote:
I change my mind. The gand does deserve one, and so should the jedi for not stopping it.

The Jedi's character wasn't close enough to stop the Gand, but he did relieve the Gand from the interrogation immediately afterword, to prevent it happening again. That's why I didn't consider a DSP on the Jedi for not stopping the Gand.

Again, thank you all for your input.
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Phalanks Balas
Lieutenant Commander
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Joined: 05 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well KageRyu,
sorry to answer lately.
For the wound caused by the Gand, maybe you should considere it as a stun damage (with possibly of wound) to avoid a killing blow. Did the Gand try to discuss with the prisonner to obtain information or did he begin to hit first ? In the second case I say yes give a DSP. For the first case, well he tries to obtain information by a "soft" manner and fails and continues with the other one... In fact all depend of the feeling of the PC.

For the Jedi, Did he knows what the Gand will do (hitting the prisonner) ? Yes = DSP. A jedi can't allow this kind of process.
For the cup, I think to warn him is enough.

Giving a DSP afterwards is not a problem even for giving it to a Jedi. You can explain him why and considere he didn't use the Force with the help of the dark side.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your welcome, kage. As to the "The Jedi's character wasn't close enough to stop the Gand, but he did relieve the Gand from the interrogation immediately afterword, to prevent it happening again. That's why I didn't consider a DSP on the Jedi for not stopping the Gand"

That changes it from give the jedi one to not...
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Hellcat
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the Jedi was being reckless in using the coffee cup to attempt to knock the prisoner out. In theory you could actually kill a person with a coffee cup depending on how thick it is and how strong you are. Yes, he failed to even hurt the prisoner he hit, but he could have also used the Force to implant a suggestion that the prisoners were so tired that they couldn't stay awake any longer. Or he could have even borrowed someone's blaster and stunned the prisoners.
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