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What if the sequel trilogy had been good?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hell, TRoS even had Lando and Nien Nunb in the same scene, apart from each other with no interaction. How hard would it have been for them to put them together, show them hug or Lando put his arm around Nein Nunb in the briefing? We couldn't even get that.

Ray, it is sad to think about what could have been, but my best advise it to remember that we were not owed any more films at all so it is not like they broke a promise to give us a reunion of the old heroes like this photoshopped image shows. The DT is the same in that respect as if Lucas had never sold the franchise and there were no more sequels. We didn't get that either way.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'd've been okay with a plot that allowed the heroes of Yavin to pass the torch to a new generation in a respectful manner, but that's not what we got. IMO, any discussion of "what if the sequels had been good" needs to include "what if the prequels had been good"...

I don't want to see this sequel trilogy topic to get into a big debate about the prequels, but the prequels are good in many ways. Perfect? No. But neither are the classic movies. In fact, some of the wooden dialogue and cheesy acting that the prequels get accused of equally applies to the classics. Some of the fake-looking CG of the prequels isn't any worse than fake-looking muppets of the classic films. Each trilogy has their own issues too. The main difference I've found is, nostalgia goggles make a lot of fans in our generation refuse to acknowledge imperfections with the classic films. It's a lopsided conversation.

CRMcNeill wrote:
..."what if the prequels had been good", because there's a lot of balls that got dropped w/r/t making the entire nine-film arc have coherency...

There was no nine-film arc when the prequels were made. The nine and 12 episode pipe dreams of Lucas were abandoned in 1980, early in RotJ pre-production. Lucas firmly decided to chronologically wrap up the story in Episode VI. Whether the PT would ever be made or not was up in the air until the mid-90s, but Lucas knew he definitely wasn't going to make nine films while the second film was still in the theaters, and as much as he has changed his mind about some things, he never wavered from that. The PT was never designed to be a part of any story except leading to the CT. It is hardly fair to hold the PT accountable for dropping balls for a ST that simply did not exist when the PT was made. Lucas made a six-film saga designed to end in Episode VI. When he was completed it in 2005, his vision of the future of the SW franchise centered on a live action TV show set between the trilogies. Then later things changed.

Now Abrams suggests that the PT sets up the ST, but really he was only talking about how he feels a single line of vague dialogue in RotS "sets up" Palpatine's return in TRoS. And besides, that was only after the fact. Lucas has consistently stated that in his mind, Palpatine was dead since 1983 and never came back to life, even as a clone. When Lucas included story synopses for a "sequel trilogy" in the Disney sale, this is something Lucas came up post-PT just to sweeten the pot. He stated he knew that making new films would be the big selling point for Disney buying the franchise. What he submitted (that they ended up not going with anyway) may have been somewhat based on his original ideas, but deciding to the end the story for RotJ meant changes to that because Palpatine was originally not going to even be in Episode VI and Luke's long-lost sister was going to be a new character that also wasn't going to appear until the third trilogy (instead of it being Leia).

CRMcNeill wrote:
I was at least hoping for some sort of resolution to the whole "bring balance to the Force" prophecy in the prequels.

This is actually a major point in how the DT is its own thing separate from Lucas' six-film saga. PT detractors have stated a lot of issues but the PT fundamentally supports the CT. The story the CT ended up being about, Anakin's redemption and the defeat of the emperor, was emphasized and deepened by the PT. In Episode I, Qui-Gon was right. In Episode VI, Anakin fulfilled the prophecy and destroyed the Sith. The PT added to the CT without taking away anything from it.

In the so-called "Episode IX" the Sith are far from destroyed. Palpatine returns, supported by a planetwide Sith Cult that had built hundreds of death star destroyers for him. The Force ghost of Anakin tells Rey, "Bring balance to the Force, Rey, as I did." And then she presumably destroys Palpatine and the Sith cult for good (unless she is possessed by his spirit based on what he had told her would happen if she killed him). Since Rey is decidedly not the reincarnation of Anakin in this film, who is the Chosen One of the Prophecy now? According to the TRoS novelization, Palpatine was never even temporarily destroyed. His spirit fled his body as he was falling down the reactor shaft in RotJ and joined with a new body on the Sith Cult planet in the Unknown Regions before his old body even died. Was Qui-Gon wrong?

Even without the prequels, TRoS undoes Anakin's climactic accomplishment of destroying the emperor. The only way they could bring Palpatine back without it taking away from CT is to also bring Anakin back to destroy him again (this time for good, blah blah). The PT certainly did not live up to the expectations of a large minority of fans, but it did not take anything away from the CT. The DT works in direct opposition to the six film saga. So the DT is such a completely different level of failure that the PT could possibly be in that it is almost absurd to even consider them equally.

Quote:
...I didn't come into the sequels with much in the way of specific expectations...

I had hope, but it was cautious optimism. My expectations seem to be from a completely different view than yours, which seems to be based on there not having being a 'good' Star Wars film since 1983). My doubt was based on the (six) film already saga being complete as-is, so how are they going to continue the story in a way that doesn't feel tacked on?

Well undoing Anakin's sacrifice to destroy the Sith may be the DT's biggest sin, but the sum of all its others far outweighs even that. Starting with TFA, they pretty much undid the entire resolution of the CT to set-up the DT. The mighty Galactic Empire collapsed a year after RotJ. Luke's new Jedi order was destroyed by a powerful student who was seduced to the Dark Side by new evil that is very similar to the old. Jedi Master Luke is in exile. Han and Leia are separated. Disney undid the CT just to remake it. This is worse than tacking another trilogy on to a completed story.

I didn't expect that, but even though they did that I enjoyed TFA and wanted to give the DT a chance to see if it would all be worth it. It wasn't, and only got worse each episode. But I finished their "trilogy". Last I heard from you, you still hadn't even seen TRoS. It seems silly to be talking about a nine-film story with someone who hasn't even seen the ninth part. At one point you told me you would watch it when would be free for you. Do you still have Disney+? What I'd really love to see is you watching TRoS, then reading TRoS, The Sequel Trilogy & The Skywalker Saga, and then hearing your responses to it all.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, at the risk of sounding glib or irreverent, my personal response to people who insist I need to see TRotS to know just how bad it is goes back to what my writing teacher once told me about her time being a professional editor and judging book submissions.

For me this bit of wisdom ranks right up there with 'Don't judge a book by its cover.'

"You don't need to eat the whole pot of stew to know it's bad. A taste is enough."

If something is iffy, I'll give it a try because first impressions (or pre-conceptions) are often wrong. I will see TRotS eventually, but I have no qualms about turning off a movie half or even a quarter of the way through if it isn't engaging me, or if it is actively repelling me.

I just know that if that happens, there will be people who tell me I can't judge it because I didn't watch the *whole* thing.
And I don't buy into that. Very Happy
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It needed an actual theme (example: the superiority of the human spirit vs a bunch of expensive technology) and a pointed story (example: the hero who rises from humble origins to greatness, hits a road block, goes into the spirit world and comes back to finish their work).

I don't actually know what the themes in the sequels were. As for the story, the sequels had no cohesive plot, it was like they were trying to be a tv show with an ensemble cast, and packaging 3 episodes of loud adventures but ultimately meaningless together and calling it a "movie", three times in a row.

So the sequels, to be good, needed one or more overarching themes. The human vs technology thing was very much of its time. They could go with that again but maybe it's a dead horse after Avatar. They also needed a story. It doesn't have to be the same as before, and probably shouldn't be.

I don't want it to turn into comparing them to the prequels wither, I think I've been clear where on stand on that whole thing.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep.

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Well, at the risk of sounding glib or irreverent, my personal response to people who insist I need to see TRotS to know just how bad it is goes back to what my writing teacher once told me about her time being a professional editor and judging book submissions.

For me this bit of wisdom ranks right up there with 'Don't judge a book by its cover.'

"You don't need to eat the whole pot of stew to know it's bad. A taste is enough."

If something is iffy, I'll give it a try because first impressions (or pre-conceptions) are often wrong. I will see TRotS eventually, but I have no qualms about turning off a movie half or even a quarter of the way through if it isn't engaging me, or if it is actively repelling me.

I just know that if that happens, there will be people who tell me I can't judge it because I didn't watch the *whole* thing.
And I don't buy into that.

I wasn't saying you or anyone shouldn't judge the film without seeing it or all of it. Your judgement of it includes your judgement to not watch (finish) it in the first place. That's your prerogative. I can relate. I've stopped watching movies and stopped reading books part way through, including even Star Wars books. I've stopped watching TV series before they were finished, even after being a few seasons in.

However I will say that, at the risk of sounding glib or irreverent, you shouldn't participate in a discussion of film without seeing all of it, or the discussion of a complete "trilogy" (or complete "saga") without even watching the final episode of it.

You haven't done that here. Your post above is your first post in this thread. There is a big difference between you making a personal decision for yourself that the 2+ hours of watching a film won't be worth your time, and talking about a film you haven't watched. You are always welcome to have a not-fully-educated opinion about something, but it is not always apropos to discuss it.

The worst case I can think of here was when a guy posted a giant bashfest about Solo in a 'rank the films' thread when he hadn't even seen the movie he was bashing. He was going off of what his cousin told him about the film, and between the two of them they had some factual errors showing he didn't even know what the hell he was talking about.

I don't care if you or anyone has an opinion about something they haven't seen, but TS's OP is clearly directed at people who have seen the full DT and asking for their opinions about how it could have been better.

And for absolute clarity here, I cannot in good conscious recommend viewing TRoS or the DT to anyone who hasn't seen it, so I don't. But if you want to have an educated opinion about it and discuss it, then you should have to suffer through it to do that. It's the price of admission. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

I wasn't saying you or anyone shouldn't judge the film without seeing it or all of it. Your judgement of it includes your judgement to not watch (finish) it in the first place. That's your prerogative. I can relate ....

However I will say that, at the risk of sounding glib or irreverent, you shouldn't participate in a discussion of film without seeing all of it, or the discussion of a complete "trilogy" (or complete "saga") without even watching the final episode of it.


Ahh.

Good distinction.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just watched this last night, and since it bears on the topic, I thought I'd post the link. This video is by a YouTuber named The Critical Drinker, and despite his persona of a perpetually drunk, foul-mouthed Scotsman, this guy does a pretty good analysis of Rey's failings as a likeable character, and also presents a far better (IMO) alternate plot line for TFA.

Fair warning, this video contains language that is NSFW or for young ears so choose your viewing venue appropriately. Now that that's out of the way, here is...

The Drinker Fixes...Rey Skywalker / Palpatine / Plutt
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting points.

Found similar opinion regarding Rey in:

It’s a Trap! Strong Women of Star Wars, It’s A Lie & Here’s The Proof
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't know the squel trilogy was a thing........have they made movies continuing the story after ROTJ?

Or are you talking those spaceballs sequels lanched by disney?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Just watched this last night, and since it bears on the topic, I thought I'd post the link. This video is by a YouTuber named The Critical Drinker, and despite his persona of a perpetually drunk, foul-mouthed Scotsman, this guy does a pretty good analysis of Rey's failings as a likeable character, and also presents a far better (IMO) alternate plot line for TFA.

Fair warning, this video contains language that is NSFW or for young ears so choose your viewing venue appropriately. Now that that's out of the way, here is...

The Drinker Fixes...Rey Skywalker / Palpatine / Plutt
The Drinker wrote:
Now I could speculate more about the creative reasons behind this, but I think we all know why she was made this way...

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. The image shown while he says this makes it clear what he believes "we all know".

Darklighter79 wrote:
Interesting points.

Found similar opinion regarding Rey in:

It’s a Trap! Strong Women of Star Wars, It’s A Lie & Here’s The Proof

CRM's video probably shouldn't have been shared, but one partial defense I can say is that the main point of the video he shared seems to be the re-plot of TFA. Your response video specifically replies to the policy violating aspect of the first video, making it boldly obvious here on the forum. I probably wouldn't have even watched to the first video if the second hadn't been posted.

These videos have some factual errors and I do not agree with everything, but they do have some good points (more the scottish drunk one). But they both technically violate the forum's policy for expressing Star Wars has a political agenda, the policy for which applies to the sharing of videos that express that sentiment.

The truth of it doesn't even matter. It provokes pointless debate. There is no possible good that can come from the discussion of it here. I'm sure there are other forums out on the internet for this for discussing these things (none I would have any interest in participating in), but the Rancor Pit is definitely not one. We already extend our discussions to beyond the primary purpose of this website (discussing Star Wars D6), but there are boundaries. I think they are clearly defined.

I do not want to have to preview all videos that are posted on the forum to check for violations. That why I made the guidelines, so you all could self-moderate. I want to trust you guys. I could make a rule that you can share videos but they can't be discussed here, but then what would be the point of sharing them? Make a personal blog for to share videos that shouldn't be shared here. A better rule would be to disallow all videos to be shared, but that would eliminate plenty of good videos that don't violate any guidelines. I'll have to think about it. If anyone has ideas or suggestions, please PM me.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PLEASE?!

I have been a star wars fan since ESB, and never have I seen more simpleness and meanness and even wierdness one every side of the so called fan divisions.

Stop it?

Facts: Star wars had in the now Legends, had gay people, strong and less strong characters, strong and less strong women, its fair share of mary sues and the like.
In fact if we dive into the old legends we see very much the same.

Disney did a few things wrong this is without startig anything political or controversial but to state a fact.

When they bought Star Wars they bought what they though was a much more "dead " franchise than what it is, and they wanted to relanuch this, an this also menat "deleting" the legends.

By doing so Disny inadvertnety LIED to the fans, claiming things like the first female stromtrooper, the first asian, and so and so and so....when the majority of the above average fans had read enough legend material to have all this and more, and then themistakes was made with later statements defendingthis cuourse of action in a way that made it seem the majority of fans was attacked.

Lets be real, there is little to no difference between all the "hated stuff " pilitics and the like now in star wars it always was, the difference now is that for some reason everyone have to make an oppionon about it.


Fact: ANH Had female stromtroopers on screen, among the extras in armorr were among athers dancers, several of them women, amd they do stand out of we give the movie a good watch, we see some are actually notably shorter, even shorter than mr "aren't you a little too short for a stormtrooper".

so I as a fan sinc the very early 80s really don't understand what this is all about, star wars in content is not changed much, if any, names have been changed but concepts have for the most been kept in some form.......and we laugh of the clone palaptine ....dark empire cough cough etc etc


so all with this silly nothing to with star wars and the galaxy far far away, stop it.

lets be the ONE place where star wars is that....star wars...not real life anthhing
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I could not cut out parts from YT material, so just corrected the link the part at 4:41 - character arc and hero's journey. How it was planned and executed in OT and ST (or rather lack of it in the latter one)

All the previous part of the material is irrelevant for this topic and as pretty self explanatory it requires no comment.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually still fully sport the idea of turning the Thrawn Trilogy into three solid screenplays and give the roles of the characters to new younger actors.
It has been done many times with James Bond and Batman, and audiences did not get strokes or stopped being fans.

The Thrawn novels are not perfect, but they are a solid basis to provide material for three really tight movies that check all the right boxes for great Star Wars stories.

They could actually still do that. Leia having only one child instead of two really wouldn't affect the plot at all.

Regarding women in Star Wars: There's currently a lot of young people giving their impressions of the original Star Wars movies on youtube right now. And young women in particular really love Leia. Even Slave Leia strangling Jabba with her chain.
It's not only wrong that Star Wars didn't appeal to girls 40 years ago. The same movies even still hold up to today's standards.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those of you who enjoyed the last video I posted, here is an earlier one from the same creator:

The Drinker Fixes... Luke Skywalker

In which the Drinker offers an analysis of Luke's character arc in TLJ and suggests an alternate path.

Disclaimer: If viewed in its entirety, this video is technically in violation of the Group Posting Guidelines mentioned in response to the previous video. To that end, the video link above begins at approximately the 5 minute mark, after any inappropriate content. If anyone wishes to view the objectionable content, you may do so at your own discretion, but do not respond or reply to said content in this thread.

Also, as with the previous video, be advised the content is NSFW or for innocent ears. You have been warned.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, Yora.

Yora wrote:
I actually still fully sport the idea of turning the Thrawn Trilogy into three solid screenplays and give the roles of the characters to new younger actors.
It has been done many times with James Bond and Batman, and audiences did not get strokes or stopped being fans.

The Thrawn novels are not perfect, but they are a solid basis to provide material for three really tight movies that check all the right boxes for great Star Wars stories.

They could actually still do that. Leia having only one child instead of two really wouldn't affect the plot at all.

I doubt they will do it any time soon, but I fully support them making The Thrawn Trilogy into live action films with young actors. If not live action, then animated (realistically proportioned animation, not the giant eyes and knobby nose/wooden beard animation of TCW). And you may not be a fan but we already have a younger Han and Lando actors for their roles.

But I'd prefer that the ending be rewritten so that Mara Sue only takes down Luuke to overcome her Imperial programming, and Luke defeats Joruus, with the assistance of Han and Leia. I loved the trilogy all the way to the end when our classic trinity are totally marginalized so Mara usurps the status of primary galactic protagonist by defeating the main dark side villain. After Anakin returns and becomes the protagonist of RotJ's dark villain climax, Luke needs a big climax. I just did not see the trinity, especially Luke, being dramatically shoved aside by the author's thinly disguised amalgamation of Luke, Han, Leia, and Vader. With red hair and green eyes, to boot.

Canonizing it into Disney Canon would have some other challenges besides Leia only having one kid instead of two. The Canon timeline is a lot different. The Empire is defeated only one year after RotJ, and it is my understanding the Ben Solo was born before that (Leia basically got pregnant on Endor). It seems that this time period is well chronicled now so I don't know how they would shoe horn a story originally created to takes place five years after RotJ into the canon timeline easily.

I think they should just ignore canon and make these TTT movies as EU-based (but with the changes to the ending of The Last Command that I mentioned above). "Star Wars: A Legends Trilogy." Fans would go nuts with at the EU being resurrected.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Switiching in younger actors isn't the same as in James Bond or Batman. Mark Hamil wasn't doing his personal film adaptation of a character audiences already knew. His Luke, is Luke.

I'd love an animated series voiced by Mark Hamill though. Or to give him a major role in The Mandolorian Seasons 2+. Probably too for 2 I think filming wrapped on it right before lockdown.
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