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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:04 am Post subject: |
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I'm with Whill on this one. The setting is pretty clear that Luke and Anakin are singularly powerful in the Force (Luke arguably slightly less so), way more than a normal PC could ever achieve. This isn't the sort of thing that's achievable without some sort of innate connection, and WEG went out of their way to point that out (see the Force Chapter of the 1E Rules Companion). I've taken it a step further by giving Anakin and Luke insanely high base Force Attributes, and I'd probably go so far (to tie this back into the OP) as to at least give them the Talent rating on all three Force skills.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:41 am Post subject: |
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Well, obviously, Anakin and Luke had unusually high Force attributes due to midichlorian exposure in utero. 
So, personally, I like the Talents as I outlined them a couple pages ago... 5 CPs to get a +1D in something about the breadth of a specialization, or in a Force Power. Want to be a lightsaber duelist? Take a Talent in Lightsaber Combat force power, and maybe another in a lightsaber form.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | Naaman, in my game PCs start out better than RAW (Humans have 12D in skill dice instead of 7D), but it is obvious that wouldn't be good enough for you and you would never be happy with me as a GM. In my mind, Anakin properly statted out in D6 form is already into game-breaking range for PCs. It isn't a problem because Anakin is an NPC. I'm a good GM but I'm not nearly skilled enough to manage PCs that powerful.
I'm really curious, have you ever had a GM that let your PC start out as powerful as Anakin Skywalker? If not even close, how have you ever enjoyed the game without that? |
You seem to misunderstand what I'm saying. I would have a field day with your chracter gen rules.
My point is that, if I were to "stat out" Anakin or Luke, they would be subjuct to the same restrictions as PCs. Not that PCs should start at the same power level as RotJ Luke or RotS Anakin.
Since we are talking Talents, they would get a Force-based talent that came at some other price (either-rules based or story-based). We see that Anakin's hubris actually ruined him (his "player" failed enough willpower checks, or whatever).
Other PCs could have a different talent, leaving the Skywalker talent as off-limits unless we are playing a game where PCs are allowed to play a Skywalker descendant.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm with Whill on this one. The setting is pretty clear that Luke and Anakin are singularly powerful in the Force (Luke arguably slightly less so), way more than a normal PC could ever achieve. This isn't the sort of thing that's achievable without some sort of innate connection, and WEG went out of their way to point that out (see the Force Chapter of the 1E Rules Companion). I've taken it a step further by giving Anakin and Luke insanely high base Force Attributes, and I'd probably go so far (to tie this back into the OP) as to at least give them the Talent rating on all three Force skills. |
I believe Lucas is on record saying that Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever.
I just don't like the idea of the "Mary Sue" hero. From a story telling perspective, a hero's accomplishments are meaningless is they do not come by struggle. Conversely, if failure is the average result of a primary skill roll, then the fun factor is drained quite quickly.
Despite how "powerful" Anakin was, he still got chopped up by the always mediocre Obi-Wan.
And Luke made a rather embarrassing show of what a Jedi Knight is on Jabba's skiff...
They don't strike me as far exceeding the capabilities of a standard PC.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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You're using Mary Sue (or, seeing how this is a male character, a Marty Stu) inappropriately. Despite his power level, Luke differs from the Mary Sue trope in several critical ways. Per the Mary Sue article on Wikipedia...A Mary Sue is a generic name for any fictional character who is so competent or perfect that this appears absurd, even in the context of the fictional setting. Mary Sues are often an author's idealized or flawless self-insertion. They may excel at tasks that should not be possible for them, or they may upstage the protagonist of a fictional setting, such as by saving them. They may disregard previously established aspects of the fiction such as characterization and natural laws. Let's take it in order..."any fictional character who is so competent or perfect that this appears absurd, even in the context of the fictional setting." While Luke is highly competent in certain skill sets, he is notably deficient in others; he's whiny, naive, overconfident, not that great at close combat (see the sandpeople and the cantina fight). He's a good pilot and he's strong in the Force, and growing up on a harsh desert planet has likely ingrained in him an above average degree of hardiness and independence, but he's not perfect."Mary Sues are often an author's idealized or flawless self-insertion." Lucas was something of a hot rodder growing up in the CA central valley, so this point hits a bit closer to the mark. However, considering how well he managed to craft the character of Luke in other aspects, it's forgivable. In any case, a certain degree of similarity does not a Mary Sue make."They may excel at tasks that should not be possible for them, or they may upstage the protagonist of a fictional setting, such as by saving them. They may disregard previously established aspects of the fiction such as characterization and natural laws. " Luke is the protagonist; there's no way to upstage himself. Likewise, he is the trendsetter, as he is the one doing the establishing of characterization and natural laws, and simultaneously establishing why he, himself is special and unique within the setting. And yet, even then, he fails more than once over the course of the original trilogy, and his progress requires effort, failure, disappointment and self-reflection to achieve the level of power and skill that he does.
Luke is uniquely powerful, and your PCs should never be as good as him, or else they will become the Mary Sues doing the upstaging. If we're playing in a setting without an established pantheon of heroes, that would be one thing, but we're not.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | Despite how "powerful" Anakin was, he still got chopped up by the always mediocre Obi-Wan.
And Luke made a rather embarrassing show of what a Jedi Knight is on Jabba's skiff...
They don't strike me as far exceeding the capabilities of a standard PC. |
Frankly, it sounds like you're slanting your commentary to justify your point. Obi-wan is only mediocre if you ignore the quality of his opponents. Same with Luke; the only opponent who gave him any trouble on the skiff was the best bounty hunter in the galaxy.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Yes. You have made my argument for me here.
In the films, the characters are not Mary Sues. But the way folks want to represent them in the rules (by breaking the rules, basically..."they'ere so powerful, the standard rules can't describe them") turn them into Mary Sues.
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Naaman
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | Yes. You have made my argument for me here.
In the films, the characters are not Mary Sues. But the way folks want to represent them in the rules (by breaking the rules, basically..."they'ere so powerful, the standard rules can't describe them") turn them into Mary Sues. |
You're still not getting the term "Mary Sue" right. There can't be two Harry Potters, or two Aragorns, or two Luke Skywalkers. They are uniquely powerful individuals who literally define their setting as a crucially important character. If you were to insert a second such character while simultaneously removing all of their faults, who happens to look and act suspiciously like yourself, then that would be a Mary Sue.
Luke can not break the rules of the universe because he's the one who established the rules.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:36 am Post subject: |
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There is nothing in the films to suggest that Boba Fett is the best bounty hunter in the galaxy. In ANH and RotJ, Boba Fett is just hanging around Jabba like one of his goons. Fett missed Luke twice with his wrist laser at point blank range, when Luke was fighting more goons on the next skiff and not even dodging, or even looking at Boba Fett. He then got taken out by a blind man with a boat paddle, and has a slapstick demise literally going out with a burp. From TESB it is established that he is a bounty hunter, but it's a crappy galaxy of bounty hunters if Boba Fett is even among the best. His EU reputation is way overrated.
| Naaman wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm with Whill on this one. The setting is pretty clear that Luke and Anakin are singularly powerful in the Force (Luke arguably slightly less so), way more than a normal PC could ever achieve. This isn't the sort of thing that's achievable without some sort of innate connection, and WEG went out of their way to point that out (see the Force Chapter of the 1E Rules Companion). I've taken it a step further by giving Anakin and Luke insanely high base Force Attributes, and I'd probably go so far (to tie this back into the OP) as to at least give them the Talent rating on all three Force skills. |
I believe Lucas is on record saying that Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever. |
I've never encountered that quote so I've done some checking. What I've found are a lot of questions being asked of, Did Lucas really say that Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever? And a lot of answers saying that is a popular myth being propagated by fans but it is a misquote. I've read multiple cases where someone lists multiple quotes from Lucas about it, and they all say pretty much the same thing as this...
| Lucas wrote: | | ...Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side... |
Anakin with only one cybernetic limb and no other damage to his body would have been the most powerful Force user in the galaxy, but after Mustafar his power level fell down to below Palpatine's. Luke had the potential to be more powerful than Vader. Lucas never said that Luke would be as powerful as pre-Mustafar Anakin (or even more powerful than Palpatine), just more powerful than half-machine Vader.
If you have a reliable quote from Lucas I would like to see it, but it seems you just heard the common fan heresay that people falsely believe Lucas said. In fact, I haven't even read that Anakin ever became the most powerful Jedi, just that he had the potential to be. He didn't live up to his potential. Luke wasn't very powerful in RotJ, compared to a lot of the prequel Jedi. Luke and Leia both had the potential to be very powerful, but maybe not as powerful as Anakin's potential. However, in RotJ Luke was most certainly a lot more powerful than a starting PC.
I just read that last year it was established in canon that Mace Windu was the most powerful Jedi ever. It is true that in his one on one match with Palpatine, Mace Windu would have won if Anakin hadn't intervened.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | There is nothing in the films to suggest that Boba Fett is the best bounty hunter in the galaxy. In ANH and RotJ, Boba Fett is just hanging around Jabba like one of his goons. Fett missed Luke twice with his wrist laser at point blank range, when Luke was fighting more goons on the next skiff and not even dodging, or even looking at Boba Fett. He then got taken out by a blind man with a boat paddle, and has a slapstick demise literally going out with a burp. From TESB it is established that he is a bounty hunter, but it's a crappy galaxy of bounty hunters if Boba Fett is even among the best. His EU reputation is way overrated.
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EU Boba Fett is kind of a good example of a Mary Sue. ESB gave him a reputation... he was the one who figured out how to track Han, and Vader singled him out for "No disintegrations". He was given prominence... but when we run into him on Tattooine, he is, as Whill said, just sorta hanging out at the boss's place, before getting knocked into the spiky sand anus to suffer eternal death.
And then EU Boba Fett became the damn Batman, able to track anyone and capture anything with his utility belt. He was the best bounty hunter ever. Vader respected him. Condemned to certain death in the Sarlacc, he got out, then became Mandalore. Fought off an extra-galactic invasion. Trained the daughter of Han Solo to kill a Sith Lord.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:17 am Post subject: |
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No, Boba Fett is not a Mary Sue. The only Mary Sue in the Star Wars films is Rey.
Some reading: What Does A Mary Sue Look Like?
Mary Sues have specific criteria to meet. Just because Boba Fett got a retcon face-lift because he turned out more popular than expected doesn't make him a Mary Sue.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Can we please give "Mary Sue" talk a rest? Quibbling over the proper definition of a word used to bash is pointless. Ultimately, it doesn't matter if a character is a "Mary Sue" or not. The "proper" definition of Mary Sue is often brought up to validate or invalidate other fan opinions, and I don't like that. Fans are free to like a character even if they meet the "criteria" of "Mary Sue," and fans are free to not like a character even if they aren't a "Mary Sue". And to be fair, I'll stop calling Mara Jade "Mara Sue". Cool?
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Can we please give "Mary Sue" talk a rest? Quibbling over the proper definition of a word used to bash is pointless. Ultimately, it doesn't matter if a character is a "Mary Sue" or not. The "proper" definition of Mary Sue is often brought up to validate or invalidate other fan opinions, and I don't like that. Fans are free to like a character even if they meet the "criteria" of "Mary Sue," and fans are free to not like a character even if they aren't a "Mary Sue". And to be fair, I'll stop calling Mara Jade "Mara Sue". Cool? |
Nice.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | Yes. You have made my argument for me here.
In the films, the characters are not Mary Sues. But the way folks want to represent them in the rules (by breaking the rules, basically..."they'ere so powerful, the standard rules can't describe them") turn them into Mary Sues. |
You're still not getting the term "Mary Sue" right. There can't be two Harry Potters, or two Aragorns, or two Luke Skywalkers. They are uniquely powerful individuals who literally define their setting as a crucially important character. If you were to insert a second such character while simultaneously removing all of their faults, who happens to look and act suspiciously like yourself, then that would be a Mary Sue.
Luke can not break the rules of the universe because he's the one who established the rules. |
I said what I said about talents and starting PCs because its what I think makes for a worthwile story/adventure/character.
I get that the consensus is that Luke/Anakin et al are "too powerful for the rules." I just think that's a constrained way to look at a galaxy sized setting.
I do find it interesting that you said Luke can't fit into the standard rules, and then said the he estabishes the rules of the setting, and therefore can't break them.
My opinion is simply that the movie characters don't have to be untouchable or incomparable.
For example, Batman is relevant in a universe that includes Superman.... and he even manages to upstage the Kryptonian from time to time. He's not "powerful" in the same sense that Superman is, but the Talents he selected at character creation make him "on par" as a character. Mostly because Superman's power is checked by a goody-two-shoes character trait, which he took at character creation.
It's my position that RPGs set in an established setting should work like this.
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