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New Skill: Defense
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, how would you factor Dodge into Movement as described above? My initial thought would be to either make it part of a Static Defense Modifier, or make it a two-step process, where the character has to roll Running / Agility against a Modified Terrain Difficulty (as in, Base Terrain Difficulty, +5-10 for making the Evasion roll), and on success, add the degree of success on the roll to the Difficulty to Hit.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
If I were to rule something off the top of my head, I'd say that making a Dodge roll requires making at least a Cautious Move's worth of distance, or less if moving directly toward whatever form of Cover is available.

Naaman wrote:
Finally someone is making sense with the dodge thing.

I'm a little offended. We've made sense about the dodge thing here before. I posted about the cautious movement thing with dodging earlier this year.

I'm not feeling that appreciated around here. It's not like me to get all poor me, but I think I need to take a break from this site for a while. Maybe I'll be appreciated more when I return. I'm working on something big I've been working on a while now, and I'll finish that and post it though.


That was intended as a friendly ribbing to CRM and garhkal over their own prior comments on what dodge is (or isn't) as opposed to mine. I assumed they'd get it.

On the other hand, most of us seem to fade in and out from time to time, so noone will likely be offended if you take some time off.

Assuming the project is 'Pit or D6 related, I look forward to it.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
So, how would you factor Dodge into Movement as described above? My initial thought would be to either make it part of a Static Defense Modifier, or make it a two-step process, where the character has to roll Running / Agility against a Modified Terrain Difficulty (as in, Base Terrain Difficulty, +5-10 for making the Evasion roll), and on success, add the degree of success on the roll to the Difficulty to Hit.


I guess it would depend if we're using your custom system or if we're trying to install it into the RAW.

If using what I understand as your system (where dodge and running have been combined), I'd simply do it like this:

If cover is available within x distance, at some point in the round (such as at the beginning of your turn), make an agility roll. Add a modifier based on the distance to cover (beyond a certain distance and you get a penalty; less than a certain distance, and you get a bonus).

Anyone shooting at you must overcome your roll total.

This way, it better describes what happens "when bullets start flying." People don't wait to be targeted before running/ducking for cover. Rather, as soon as they detect a shooter, they move as fast as they can to safety.

If terrain is an issue, you could set a threshold for success; and failure by a certain margin means the character fall as takes damage (whether they make it to cover or not).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly, using a Static Defense Modifier sounds a lot simpler. Just use Running or Agility to generate the Modifier as per the rules in Mini Six, then say that the character only gets the bonus if they're moving faster than their Base Move.

And then maybe combine All-Out with Full Dodge, and say that the character gets a +10 modifier to their Static Defense Modifier, but must be running flat out, and can take no other actions that round.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly that sounds more complicated.

My way:

GM: Roll initiative and declare actions.

Players: I declare a dodge/agility and a shot with my blaster.

GM: Roll your dodge for the round, and then make your attack. Cover is 2 meters away, so your dodge gets a +1D bonus.

Though in all honesty, I would have to look at MiniSix to fully understand what you're proposing,
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I'm thinking, Defense for the attacks you can actually react to, which covers Brawling and Melee. Ranged attacks happen at such speed that it takes special training or ability to be able to actively react to them. The advantage for a Jedi would be that they can use their Defense skill against Ranged Attacks, plus their Sense Dice. Non-FS Martial Artists could also potentially train up to the point where they can deflect or grab slower missile attacks.

I'm also thinking of doing a modified Static Range System where the Static Range stacks with the Range Difficulty (or the weapon's Base Difficulty for Melee Combat and Brawling). To keep the Difficulty numbers from getting too high, I'm going to go with a modified Static Range Modifier generation formula, using Agility D x 2, plus 1/2 any pips (rounded up).

So, say a character with 5D+1 Agility is being shot at from Medium Range (Moderate). The character's pre-generated Static Defense Modifier is 11 [5D = 5x2 = 10, plus 1 (1/2 of 1, rounded up)], for a total To Hit Difficulty of 26.

If the character is just walking at or below normal speed, they don't get to apply their Modifier (Difficulty 15). If they are moving faster than their normal speed, they get the Modifier, but it counts as a standard action (Difficulty 26). If they decide to move as fast as they possibly can, they get an additional +10 added to their Modifier (36), but can't take any other actions that round.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Though in all honesty, I would have to look at MiniSix to fully understand what you're proposing,

Short version, under the Static Defense rules in Mini Six, your defensive values are pre calculated based on your character's skill level. I'm proposing a three step system: 1) you don't get the bonus, 2) you get the bonus, but it counts against MAPs, and 3) you get the bonus + 10, but can't perform any other actions that round.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I just found something I missed. Under the Static Range System, Range is factored in differently, as a modifier to the Static Defense, so -5 for Point Blank, +5 for Medium and +10 for Long. With that in mind, it'd work to just use the Static Defense System as is.

EDIT: Of course, if I go that route, there's no way to do Step #1, as the Difficulty would effectively be -5. Decisions, decisions.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other advantage to my modified system is that something similar could be done with Brawling and Melee Weapons, using Defense to generate a Static Defense Modifier that would be added to the Base Difficulty for the weapon itself. With that established, a character would have the same three Options: 1) Not try to defend, in which case the attacker only rolls against the Difficulty for their weapon, 2) Defend, so the Difficulty is Base Weapon + Static Defense, or 3) Full Defense, or Base Weapon + Static Defense +10, but that's the only action they can make that round (apart from any possible Free Movement Actions, Terrain permitting).
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Static defense has its trade-offs. But it works fine in d20 games (though there are things you can do to modify yor defense without forfeiting your turn, such as "fighting defensively").
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Static defense has its trade-offs. But it works fine in d20 games (though there are things you can do to modify yor defense without forfeiting your turn, such as "fighting defensively").

I'm thinking maybe a hybrid system, with Static Defense dependent on Movement if you want to apply it to Ranged Attacks, but still requiring Defense rolls against Brawling/Melee. That way, it still adheres to the basic idea of eliminating Dodge, in that the character only becomes harder to hit because they're moving.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes sense from a realism standpoint with one possible caveat:

With melee skills, there is a sense that knowing how to fight is measured both by attack skill and defense skill.

So, in a gunfight, knowing how "not to get shot" is a major component of gunfighting. That is how I envision the "ranged defense skill." Understanding how to cut angles, manipupate positioning, height, distance, light/darkness, etc.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, that would seem to be a component of the Agility skill, upon which the Ranged Static Defense is based. I suppose a character could Specialize in Agility: Evasion and bump up their Static Defense Modifier accordingly, but I'd want to look very closely at how that affects game balance.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I was really getting at was the theme of a defense skill corresponding to a counterpart attack skill: that seems to be how RAW handles it.

If you wanted to retain that theme, there is certainly justification for doing so.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
All I was really getting at was the theme of a defense skill corresponding to a counterpart attack skill: that seems to be how RAW handles it.

The idea is that Defense would be used against the attacks you can actually detect and react to, which leaves out all but the slowest Ranged Attacks. It's designed as a counterpart to Brawling and Melee Combat, and doesn't allow you to dodge bullets or blaster bolts without precognitive abilities of some sort.
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