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Lightspeed vs Hyperspeed
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Yora
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With film in general, and films like Star Wars in particular, I've come to the approach to not be too pedantic about specific terminology. I'm not in favor of characters giving explanations for why special effects now look better in the past. Effects, sets, costumes, and props are meant to tell a story, not to pretend that you are watching an actual recording of an actual even that really happened just like it appears on the screen. And the same thing applies to dialog.
Sometimes writer write things and actors repeat them that are using words incorrectly. That does not mean that the writer really wanted to say what the words mean, or that the statement is actually true for the characters. While playing around with hyperspace in Star Wars resulted in a very entertaining and interesting magic system, we still all know that nothing of this is worldbuilding as designed by the writers, and that the words that are in the actual movie are simply gibberish made from random astronomical terms.

And there's more where that comes from. The Jedi protecting the Republic for a thousand generations probably shouldn't be taken literal. Or that the Empire has over a million full member worlds, with hundreds of millions of colonies. (Yet only 50 or keep always appearing.) And Coruscant by itself is ridiculous. Trying to apply logic to such throway lines only leads to madness and despair.
I think the real goal is to figure out what the intended feeling behind the sentences was and how you can go forward with it.

The Millennium Falcon is really fast. The Jedi had been aroud since ancient times. The Empire is much too large for any single person to know completely. I think that's the true messages for us to take away.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we "head canon" that lightspeed is simply slang for hyperspeed, then could we argue that a class 1 hyperdrive will go A to B in one day.
A class 2 will go the same A to B in two days etc
taking for granted the optimal astrogation being used.

A car with 300mph can if driven badly and chooing the wrong lanes, be slower on a 100mile track than a car with 150 mph speed that drives optimally.

seeing the falcon statted for the most part with class 0.5 hypersdrive we could maybe argue that this is what Han menat in his statement.

his ship is then .5 faster than 1 (1 being lightspeed, normal hyperdrive rating of 1)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A ship's Hyperdrive Multiplier is best viewed as an aggregate of all factors of performance, including top speed, acceleration/deceleration, ability to negotiate curves and similar course changes, etc. And a car on a track isn't a good analogy unless one were to paint all the windows black and drive the course solely under the control of an inertial guidance system. A ship in space is flying blind based solely on data from its navigation computer, with the ship's astrogator deciding when and where to cut the corners to save time.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm down with that.
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Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
A ship's Hyperdrive Multiplier is best viewed as an aggregate of all factors of performance, including top speed, acceleration/deceleration, ability to negotiate curves and similar course changes, etc. And a car on a track isn't a good analogy unless one were to paint all the windows black and drive the course solely under the control of an inertial guidance system. A ship in space is flying blind based solely on data from its navigation computer, with the ship's astrogator deciding when and where to cut the corners to save time.
So... KITT after Michael has passed out?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray wrote:
So... KITT after Michael has passed out?

Not really; any automated guidance would be flying blind, too.

The best film analogy I can think of is the scene from Hunt for Red October where the Red October is doing the underwater canyon run. The only reason they were able to do it is because they had hyper-accurate underwater surveys of the ocean floor, so they didn't need to actually see the obstacles to know what course they needed to take.

But even that analogy fails because all of the course modifications the crew can make are programmed in well in advance, and the only way to change course (unless you have access to a N-CRAB) is to drop back into realspace and recalculate.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, with some old robots, you had to preprogram their entire course... anything you don't tell it, it won't do, including stop.

So, you have to tell it "go forward 3 meters, execute a 90* turn to the left, go forward 1 meter, execute a 90* turn to the left, go forward 3 meters, execute a 90* turn to the left, go forward one meter" to get it to walk in a circle (well, rectangle)

Make a mistake... either programming its distance calculator, or in measuring your hallway, or forget to account for an obstacle and the robot will fail. You can't issue new orders on the fly... it just runs the program.

That's hyperdrive, but at several thousand times the speed of light and with everything you love on the line.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An explanation I encountered in a Fan-Fic (that checks out from a technobabble standpoint) is that during the jump, the course is stored in a heavily shielded nav-buffer integrated into the drive, and shielded to the point where it's also contained in a stasis field to prevent temporal and relativistic effects from throwing off the course. Since the course is effectively frozen in time, it's practically impossible to alter course without dropping into realspace and starting all over. The N-CRAB system is so rare and experimental because it's effectively cross-dimensionally hacking the data contained within the stasis field.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you jump to hyperspace below relativistic speeds, and hyperspace has no special relativity. That's the handwave of hyperspace, so the other technobabble is unnecessary to protect the course in the navicomputer.
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Yora
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the main issue is that you can't see or hear anything outside of your ship while in hyperspace. You wouldn't have any reason to try changing the course why in hyperspace. It's not like you have any way to determine if there is anythig wrong with your course before you suddenly pop out right next to a star.
If you decide along the way that you want to go to a different destination, you can just shut down the hyperdrive early, reorient yourself, and calculate a new course for another jump.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yora wrote:
I think the main issue is that you can't see or hear anything outside of your ship while in hyperspace. You wouldn't have any reason to try changing the course why in hyperspace. It's not like you have any way to determine if there is anythig wrong with your course before you suddenly pop out right next to a star.
If you decide along the way that you want to go to a different destination, you can just shut down the hyperdrive early, reorient yourself, and calculate a new course for another jump.



I am not sure I fully agree with this, though with how things look on screen.
to me the hyperspace travel, both in rebels and the sequals, appears as a blueish "tube" and as such I see them in a similar way as wormholes, with the hyperdrive being not a mere propulsion but a "space folder" that opens a wormhole, with the lenght and stability depending on the rating of the hypersrive. and we have seen in cockpit shoots that they do see when travelling therough hyperspace, though they see the "blue tubeish" thing.
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Yora
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I meant that you can't see what's going on in realspace. You can't see an interdictor sitting at standby ahead of you and break early or go around it. You also can't receive any messages telling you that there has been a change of plan and you should not complete the jump to your destination.

Maybe telepathically through the Force. Obi-Wan feels the destruction of Alderaan while they are in hyperspace, so Jedi might be able to communicate with each other to some degree.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wormholes as theorized are a hypothetical connection between widely separated regions of space-time. This is different from shifting "up to" a higher dimension where travel speed is greatly increased. There's a strong case for wormholes to exist in the SWU but they would be distinct and separate from hyperspace, in that, while in hyperspace, you aren't teleporting from one point to another, but are instead flying "over" the intervening realspace, and can still be forced to "land" by natural or artificial gravity sources.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
But you jump to hyperspace below relativistic speeds, and hyperspace has no special relativity. That's the handwave of hyperspace, so the other technobabble is unnecessary to protect the course in the navicomputer.

I suppose that would depend on what the hyperdrive does to cross the barrier into hyperspace. Is it possible that the hyperdrive has to be "outside" the ship's own relativistic shielding (stasis fields and the like) in order to function properly?

Ultimately, it works for me as an explanation as to why the ability to alter course while in hyperspace is so rare and expensive
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yora wrote:
I meant that you can't see what's going on in realspace. You can't see an interdictor sitting at standby ahead of you and break early or go around it.

Agreed.

Yora wrote:
You also can't receive any messages telling you that there has been a change of plan and you should not complete the jump to your destination.

Not necessarily. Ships can connect with the HoloNet in hyperspace, although it is not as easy as to maintain clear reception/transmission as in normal space. Not all ships even have this tech as it is very expensive.
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