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Whill
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 Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:07 am Post subject: Particle Shields |
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| Quote: | Starship shields are electronic energy dampers which help absorb some of the damage from enemy attacks. Shields come in two main varieties: particle and energy/ray shields.
Particle shields deflect all sorts of physical objects, including asteroids, missiles and proton torpedoes. They are used at all times, except when a ship launches fighters, missiles or torpedoes (the shields must be dropped to allow physical objects to pass through them). When a ship lowers its particle shields, reduce its hull code by -2D. (A ship which loses its main power generator also loses its particle shields.)
Energy shields are normally activated only in combat |
So do particle shields have to be 2D of the ship's Hull? Could we just change it to 1D? Wouldn't that simple change resolve the TIE Fighter issue of only having a 2D Hull?
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Krassh
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:04 am Post subject: |
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I interpret that as particle shields being an integral factor of a ship hull's physical resistance value. Perhaps even the main contributing factor on some. Of course no ship hull can have less than 1D of base physical armor rating, or the tiniest bit of space debris would punch right through it like paper.
The TIE fighter doesn't have any particle or energy shields, it's hull rating is thus purely its base physical integrity and armor. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Particle Shields |
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| Whill wrote: | | So do particle shields have to be 2D of the ship's Hull? Could we just change it to 1D? Wouldn't that simple change resolve the TIE Fighter issue of only having a 2D Hull? |
That's my take on it.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Wasn't there someone who suggested that, instead of losing 2D hull when the PS were down, they gave all weapons a +2D bonus? Avoiding the problem entirely by moving the operation to the other side of the equation?
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Particle Shields |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | So do particle shields have to be 2D of the ship's Hull? Could we just change it to 1D? Wouldn't that simple change resolve the TIE Fighter issue of only having a 2D Hull? |
That's my take on it. |
What's your take on it? RAW says particle shields constitute 2D of a ship's Hull. I was suggesting we change it to being only 1D. Are you saying you agree with this change? I searched before posting this and only found 10 posts on the Pit that had the terms "particle" and "shields" in them. I think I read them all. I didn't see you or anyone say reduce it from 2D to 1D.
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Krassh wrote: | | The TIE fighter doesn't have any particle or energy shields, it's hull rating is thus purely its base physical integrity and armor. |
That makes sense with some lore I have read, but I am not finding that was ever codified by WEG.
| Krassh wrote: | | I interpret that as particle shields being an integral factor of a ship hull's physical resistance value. Perhaps even the main contributing factor on some. Of course no ship hull can have less than 1D of base physical armor rating, or the tiniest bit of space debris would punch right through it like paper. |
I have a contrary feeling about it. I feel 2D seems like too much. Spaceship hulls shouldn't be so fragile without particle shields.
| MrNexx wrote: | | Wasn't there someone who suggested that, instead of losing 2D hull when the PS were down, they gave all weapons a +2D bonus? Avoiding the problem entirely by moving the operation to the other side of the equation? |
OK, but this solution to the TIE issue is still holding on to the paradigm that particle shields must be 2D of the Hull in the first place. My question was meant to be along the lines of, is there anything inherent in the game system that requires particle shields to be 2D of the Hull? Unless I'm missing something, that seems like an arbitrary handwave that a game designer made. Is there any harm in changing it to only 1D?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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I don’t recall exactly where, but I know I’ve made the change in my own head-canon. I can’t recall a specific point where I’ve advocated it, and several of my stats still reflect previous iterations. Decreasing particle shields to 1D neatly solves the problem of low Hull starships losing their particle shielding, and also opens up options for both increasing Hull via particle shield upgrades and via putting auxiliary power to particle shields (boosting Hull Dice by 1D).
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I don’t recall exactly where, but I know I’ve made the change in my own head-canon. I can’t recall a specific point where I’ve advocated it, and several of my stats still reflect previous iterations. Decreasing particle shields to 1D neatly solves the problem of low Hull starships losing their particle shielding, and also opens up options for both increasing Hull via particle shield upgrades and via putting auxiliary power to particle shields (boosting Hull Dice by 1D). |
Thanks. This question came up as I am working on my starship damage chart which includes particle shields. Your chart has a lot of great ideas on it.
Regarding the aux power suggestion, is that assuming that "particle shields" include some measure of general protection (and not only physical damage) because it is built in to the Hull die code? Then the combat shields are energy-only? Is that the general idea?
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Krassh
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Regarding the aux power suggestion, is that assuming that "particle shields" include some measure of general protection (and not only physical damage) because it is built in to the Hull die code? Then the combat shields are energy-only? Is that the general idea? |
If you think about it with a realism based approach, then particle shields and energy shields must function pretty similar or rather, the same.
Because both radiation and space debris are technically physical particles, which are the most common hazards for space travel and ship hulls.
Energy shields couldn't really deflect lasers, because those are just focused light and if shields deflected light, one couldn't look outside of them from inside.
But they can deflect plasma bolts, which are energized and directed gas particles.
So perhaps particle shields are a more general but weaker protection to all sorts of kinetic matter and radiation, whilst energy shields are stronger but more narrowly tuned to deflect a limited range of high energy directed plasma weaponry like blasters.
Would also fit with the fact that energy shields don't protect against ionizing weapons, which go directly against the hull die code, which incorporates the particle shields against ionizing radiation. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Krassh wrote: | If you think about it with a realism based approach, then particle shields and energy shields must function pretty similar or rather, the same.
Because both radiation and space debris are technically physical particles, which are the most common hazards for space travel and ship hulls.
Energy shields couldn't really deflect lasers, because those are just focused light and if shields deflected light, one couldn't look outside of them from inside.
But they can deflect plasma bolts, which are energized and directed gas particles.
So perhaps particle shields are a more general but weaker protection to all sorts of kinetic matter and radiation, whilst energy shields are stronger but more narrowly tuned to deflect a limited range of high energy directed plasma weaponry like blasters. |
That makes some sense. If particle shields are lowered to only being considered to be 1D of the Hull code instead of 2D, I think I can accept them as also having a bit of Star Trek's "structural integrity field" aspect to them, so they help defend against both physical and energy. Star Trek has them not only to not tear the ship apart with high speed maneuvers, but also to withstand their own warp fields where they warp physics to go faster than the speed of light in realspace. Star Wars doesn't need that because hyperspace is handwaved as another universe with completely different laws of physics. I like to think that hyperdrives themselves project a shield around the ship that protects from the ravages of hyperspace. Star Wars ships should not be so fragile to depend on particle shields to protect the ship from everything in the environments they are meant to be in. That's why I considered the DeepWater (with a fully submarine mode) a flawed design depending on its shield system to protect it from the pressures of the deep because, what if the shield's fail while they are deep under water? Instant crush. That's why I designed the follow-up class of the DeepWater to not depend on the shield system to survive underwater. Spaceships should not have to depend (that much) on force fields/shields to help protect them from micrometeor strikes and the like. With the particle shield concept in the game, we can still handwave them to provide whatever mundane protection they need to, even with them only being considered 1D of the Hull. And if they go down, then the ship still has the rest of its Hull minus only 1D. And this allows us to have ships with 2D Hulls like TIE/lns in the game without house rules to change the way the system works. They still have 1D Hull without particle shields.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Regarding the aux power suggestion, is that assuming that "particle shields" include some measure of general protection (and not only physical damage) because it is built in to the Hull die code? Then the combat shields are energy-only? Is that the general idea? |
Correct. Note that under the WEG rules, there is no distinction in protection offered w/r/t energy vs. physical, just a straight 2D modifier to Hull regardless of damage type.
To my way of thinking, "particle" shields are more like navigation shields and structural integrity type systems that provide protection against a broad range of potentially damaging energies, and extend little further than the hull itself. "Energy" shields, on the other hand, are projected further out and are more flexible w/r/t to positioning, angling, etc, to maximize their ability to resist damage. In both cases, however, they're fully effective against all types of damage.
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Regarding the aux power suggestion, is that assuming that "particle shields" include some measure of general protection (and not only physical damage) because it is built in to the Hull die code? Then the combat shields are energy-only? Is that the general idea? |
Correct. Note that under the WEG rules, there is no distinction in protection offered w/r/t energy vs. physical, just a straight 2D modifier to Hull regardless of damage type.
To my way of thinking, "particle" shields are more like navigation shields and structural integrity type systems that provide protection against a broad range of potentially damaging energies, and extend little further than the hull itself. "Energy" shields, on the other hand, are projected further out and are more flexible w/r/t to positioning, angling, etc, to maximize their ability to resist damage. In both cases, however, they're fully effective against all types of damage. |
Actually there kind of is.
I have seen in RAW, I think the WEG 2ED book, that it was named different types of shields, particle shiled bing one of them.
However there was no rules concerning any of the named types of shield. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Regarding the aux power suggestion, is that assuming that "particle shields" include some measure of general protection (and not only physical damage) because it is built in to the Hull die code? Then the combat shields are energy-only? Is that the general idea? |
Correct. Note that under the WEG rules, there is no distinction in protection offered w/r/t energy vs. physical, just a straight 2D modifier to Hull regardless of damage type.
To my way of thinking, "particle" shields are more like navigation shields and structural integrity type systems that provide protection against a broad range of potentially damaging energies, and extend little further than the hull itself. "Energy" shields, on the other hand, are projected further out and are more flexible w/r/t to positioning, angling, etc, to maximize their ability to resist damage. In both cases, however, they're fully effective against all types of damage. |
Cool. I can dig it. To be honest, over the years I feel I have usually forgotten about particle shields because I was turned off by them being worth 2D of the Hull. The simple solution is make them only 1D.
But regarding particle and ray shields both providing protection against physical and energy attacks, isn't it still true that, "the shaft is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedoes"? So proton torpedoes can bypass ray shields, right?
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:09 am Post subject: |
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Wea jusr readingg in the varuous rulebooks (more or less the same)
and sorry making the ship hull weaker makes absolutely no sense.
I use durasteel plates on my ship, have a hull of 3D becuse the metal is hard.
I intall a shiled, and turn it on, then I turn it off and my armor is no more, it is now redued to 1D (by -2D)
The ONLY way I can think about this to work, is that some and not all ship actually have aparticle shiled, by default. the particle shileding is NOT based on your shiled generators, but considered hull armor, and if this system is turned off then you loose -2D to hull value.
Now I can't see how this works, as it makes no sense. what I suspect it is, is actually the exact same as a energy shiled, however things like proton torpedos and suh when they do breach the partice shiled simply have a scale bonus. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | But regarding particle and ray shields both providing protection against physical and energy attacks, isn't it still true that, "the shaft is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedoes"? So proton torpedoes can bypass ray shields, right? |
The scene from RotS aboard the Invisible Hand suggests that ray shields don't allow matter to pass through them, either. This is part of what sparked my latest re-write of proton torpedoes, cocooning them in an energy sheath that both protects the torpedo from damage (from point defense weaponry and the like) and partially disrupts any energy shields they encounter.
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