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willg
Lieutenant Commander
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 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:54 pm Post subject: Z-95 in the Force Awakens era. |
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Seein as the X-wing got a major revision from the T-65 to the T-70 model, I was just wondering what thoughts were on the Z-95.
Do you think any development of upgrades or modifications might be backwards compatible with the Z-95? She might not be able to keep up with the T-70, but there are improvements that would show in the stats?
Or are you of the opinion whilst the old Headhunter was good in her day, which pre-dated the Clone War, her time has truly past and there would be no point keeping any in service, except in a museum or for vintage starfighter enthusiasts or those pirates who are loyal to the old design?
What your thoughts, folks? |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say they'd regard the z-95 as a relic, not worth the bother in trying to update.
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Ray
Commodore
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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The T-65 replaced the Z-95, which was the epic snubfighter of it's own era.
The last hurrah for the Z-95 was the Clonetrooper Variant. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Ray
Commodore
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| "Where the hell did you find that museum relic?" "In a museum. Which now has a hole in it large enough to fly a Z-95 Headhunter through!" |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Since the X-wing line is the legacy of the Z-95, I'd say there wouldn't be any updated versions of the Z-95. But the Battle of the Kitchen Sink at the end of TRoS had all previous ships that ever existed in Star Wars, so the Z-95 itself is still flying in the T-70/T-85 era. |
Did anyone see a z-95 in it? What about a preybird, or some of the other WEG specific ships?
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Since the X-wing line is the legacy of the Z-95, I'd say there wouldn't be any updated versions of the Z-95. But the Battle of the Kitchen Sink at the end of TRoS had all previous ships that ever existed in Star Wars, so the Z-95 itself is still flying in the T-70/T-85 era. |
Did anyone see a z-95 in it? What about a preybird, or some of the other WEG specific ships? |
I was being silly. I do not know if there was a Z-95 or Preybird in the Battle of Exegol, but it is possible.
What seems to have been used was every single non-Imperial ship that ILM had a model for, whether it be a physical model, a live action CG model, or an animated CG model (for TV or video games). I've seen a lot of those. There also seems to be some original ships that never appeared anywhere before, but maybe they were models that had been made for something else but ended up being unused. Everything they had went in, and maybe the kitchen sink. But IIRC, as a joke Lucas put an actual kitchen sink in AotC, in the Geonosis rings that Obi-Wan Kenobi and Jango Fett fought in. So there could have been a kitchen sink in that battle!
As far as "WEG" ships, there was a Lantillian Short Hauler, but that was only because they made a canon version of it for TCW and Rebels. As big of a spectacle that TRoS was, they actually did some cost controlling. The 1,080 "Death Star Destroyers" were based on the Imperial I model. Yes I, not II. Why? Because they had a CG model of that from Rogue One, which was already reused in Solo. It was era-appropriate in those prequels since Imp IIs did not appear until TESB. In TRoS, they slapped a superlaser canon onto the bottom of an Imp-I just to save money. So I doubt they went out of their way and made new CG models from scratch, based on Legends ships that had only appeared in RPGs, novels, or comic books.
But here's the other thing. ILM said they put 16,000 ship in the battle, which would include a lot of duplicates. (I don't have any number for how many total kinds of ships.) But a SW Story Group guy said the total ship number of 14,000, so they take that as the word of god and officially there were only 14,000, even though the special effects guys who worked on the battle know there were 16,000. This highlights the fact that, if certain Lucasfilm employees ever say that a Z-95 was in the battle, then it become scripture and there was a Z-95 there, even if there wasn't.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:09 am Post subject: |
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I wonder, if we'll ever get an offical rundown of every ship that showed up.
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Mamatried
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:04 am Post subject: |
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What is an Upgrade really when we talk of Models of ships?
A 7-95 straight out of production can be of various models
we see this in the standard armamnet of the mainly two different models.
now if then add (what is listed as a retrofit) hyperdrive we now have a modifiend Z-95.
change out the trageting systems, and some weapons, maybe improve engines or other types of modifications and you have a just this, in imo any age.
is the ship old as to the first order era, yes, it is "that" out dated? I would dare say no.
it has been decades but the galaxy is still not fully heeled from the war and not much as very new ship technology on the fighter side have been done, the x wing being upgraded, but is still an x wing, etc.
so this world we have not been given the name of have some Z-95s, whatever their nodifications, they are at least capable of being part of siad world fleet, and later as pr canon the Z-95 was part of the citizen fleet.
so the question is what should we consider upgraded, and is the odds grated that no system have any z-95 that they do keep upto date tech wise among the 1000s of systems out there?
do we have any offical idications of any updated versions, to my knowledge no, but the citizen fleet did include Z-95s meaning the fighter was used and most likly kept more or less upto date, and at par with what other fighters were around. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Z-95 in the Force Awakens era. |
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| willg wrote: | Do you think any development of upgrades or modifications might be backwards compatible with the Z-95? She might not be able to keep up with the T-70, but there are improvements that would show in the stats?
Or are you of the opinion whilst the old Headhunter was good in her day, which pre-dated the Clone War, her time has truly past and there would be no point keeping any in service, except in a museum or for vintage starfighter enthusiasts or those pirates who are loyal to the old design? |
All descriptions of the Z-95 in the OT era are clear that it's out of date, and not really up to going head to head with more recent fighters (although a skilled pilot can make up some of the difference - see Han Solo at Star's End). This will be even more true thirty-odd years down the road during the DT.
One exception would be updating the Z-95 for specific missions that play to its strengths; that's what I did when I used the Z-95 as the basis for my Z-Wing Close Air Support Starfighter. tl;dr, the Z-Wing is a Z-95 specifically modified for atmospheric combat and ground support. I had originally intended it as an homage to the A-10 Thunderbolt, but it ended up being conceptually closer to the A-1 Skyraider of Vietnam-era close air support fame.
The Skyraider is actually a pretty good analogue for the Z-95: an excellent fighter in its time that got put to a variety of uses over the course of a very long career, but all careers must ultimately come to an end. Nobody's looking to see what a Spad would look like with phased array radar and fire-and-forget missiles; we have newer, better craft for that.
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willg
Lieutenant Commander
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| Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:57 am Post subject: |
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True, from a British point of view, it reminds me of the old Vulcan Bombers we had from the 50s. They were obsolete by the 80s but the last hurrah was when one Vulcan was brought back into service to do the bombing run on Port Stanley during the Falklands war. It's a fascinating story, they refueled her in the air.
There's also the Harrier Jump Jet which the RAF retired in 2010 and sold 72 o the US Maries to keep their AV-8B Harrier II fleet in the air since production finished in 2003.
Obviously, there will still be Z-95's in use by pirates or whatnot but as you say, its days as a Military grade fighter are over.
I recall the old Expanded Universe, there were attempts to replace the X-Wing with the E-Wing but it never happened, though I quite liked the E-wing. |
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:59 am Post subject: |
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How ineffective would be? would it not at all be able to inflict damage at all to a newer fighter?
If we look to earth, we see baattlefields where enemies are very unevenly matched in regards to technology, look to ISIS, their various "uglies" if you will, pickups with various weapon mounts, while totally ineffective tech from a military perspective, they are still inflict casualties
If we look to various national militaries around the world we see many using what we would deem "vitetnam era" technology and weapon systems, we also see many old "frames" being upgraded and retrofitted.
So imo the Z-95 would be perfectly plausable as a military service fighter for planetary forces.
Arger coalition forces, not so much again drwingg paralells to our world. |
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:22 am Post subject: |
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I keep in mind that the galactic technology base has been more or less stable for the last 2000 years or so... while there have been some stylistic and incremental upgrades, an Ebon Hawk is not too much different from a Millenium Falcon... or at least a Ghtroc Turtle (By the Force, I love those stupid things so much).
I think the big problem with continuing to field Z-95s would be replacement parts, if you didn't build up local manufacturing to make new ones. Sure, they can't keep up with the X-wing, and the 95s are no match for the T-65, much less the T-70s, but there's still room on the road for Camrys even when the new Corvettes come out.
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | I keep in mind that the galactic technology base has been more or less stable for the last 2000 years or so... while there have been some stylistic and incremental upgrades, an Ebon Hawk is not too much different from a Millenium Falcon... or at least a Ghtroc Turtle |
Exactly my opinion on the matter. I see the Star Wars galaxy as a version of the 'Medieval Stasis' trope so often seen in Fantasy fiction. In those worlds people use swords and armor and such, pretty much unchanged for thousands of years.
Some armor or swords are better based on where they are made or if they were made by master craftsmen or enchanted, but for the most part a sword is a sword.
The Z-95 fighter needs parts? You will always be able to find a craftsman or workshop that can custom make them for you somewhere in a galaxy of a million worlds.
To imagine that the Star Wars tech just keeps getting better at the rate of our own modern real-world technological achievement really breaks down when you reverse the trend, realizing how old the Star Wars civilizations are.
If (game stats-wise) ships get a pip or two better every decades, or even every few decades, then what kind of junk were they flying 1000 years prior?
Ships with all their stats at 1D? 0D?
In Star Wars canon we have examples of tech improvement, so I am aware that it's there. Even Luke's lament that his style of speeder just isn't in demand anymore alludes to that.
But in my own Star Wars, I tend to imagine that everything is like a starting character....the same base potential...the same starting dice.
The only thing that really changes is how the dice are allotted. They have to be split between the various functions. Like you can have a well-rounded fighter, or one that is weak and fast, or strong and slow etc.
Then there are master craftsmen. In Star Wars the 'craftsman' might not be an individual but maybe a specific corporation. They might have a stats bonus in an area. Like Fighters made by Sienar get an extra bonus when applying Speed.
So a fighter from 1000 years ago 'could' be just as good as a modern fighter design...because have the allotment of stats that you happen to need. Moreso if the design was built by a long-defunct manufacturer that was particularly skilled and was able to imbue it with bonuses.
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For example, when it comes to speeder bikes....which a couple of my players were enthusiasts of, being racers. I knew that int he galaxy there would likely be thousands of models...way more than any one gaming book could detail. I encouraged them to scour the internet to find images of speeder bikes they liked. Then make up whatever stats they wanted for the bike.
I would then take their stats and apply them to a series of tables and formula that I had developed to determine the COST of that machine.
The cost could be mitigated by making the machine rare and difficult to find.
As a result, the players were incentivized to not make the machine TOO overpowered or they would A) never be able to afford it, or B) never be able to find one, or both.
I would take the same view as the headhunter.
It's stats are its stats. If it's useful, it's never going to totally disappear, it may just become harder to find and/or will always be cheaper than more capable craft.
It's not how the real world works...but it's space fantasy. |
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Ray
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| Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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My idea is that The Old Republic enforced a stasis on the universe to try and encourage peace. And that heavy-handed enforcement is part of what caused the Separatist Movement.
With the Empire, and then The New Republic, things changed. The ongoing war with the Rebellion/New Republic and the Empire continued to push forward new technologies and designs. Then the situation perpetuated.
This is why the Y-Wing was still able to be used as a Fighter-Bomber at the start of the Rebellion era, and continued only because the Rebellion both had nothing else until the B-Wing, and was able to modify the Y-Wing with new tech (such as the Ion Turbocharger) to keep it within shouting distance of being a front-line craft. |
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