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Dodge as an Advanced Skill
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree. A moving target is always harder to hit.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:19 am    Post subject: Re: Dodge as an Advanced Skill Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
It seems logical that dodge should not replace the base difficulty but rather modify it to reflect the range concept. Maybe with 1 on WildDie, MG should allow (from time to time) original rule come into play. Cool

I rather like that.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, so here's my concept for making Dodge an Advanced Skill:
    (A) Dodge

    Time Taken: One Round

    Specializations: None

    Prerequisite: Running 4D (Or Agility 4D, if you prefer)

    Dodge is a "reaction skill", but with some crucial differences. Whereas other reaction skills allow the character to react to attacks that they can see, most modern ranged attacks are beyond the ability of unaugmented organic senses to even see, much less react to. As such, a character using Dodge is assuming that they will be attacked, and preemptively moves in a manner that makes them a more difficult target.

    How To Use: Dodge can only be used in combination with a Move Action, which must be declared and rolled separately. The Result of the Dodge roll is then added to the Range Difficulty of any weapon fired at the Dodging character. Both rolls are subject to MAPs.

    Associated Rule: A moving character or object adds their Velocity Modifier to the Range Difficulty, whether they are Dodging or not.

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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pakman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is a fascinating topic.


my TLDR Summary:
I don't think we can read that much into dodges in the movies.
However, I am going to let players use the higher of the dodge vs. range mod, unless they roll 1, then they get the lesser.

Oh, and I think the advanced skill has merit as well.
It is almost like a passive defense if you know you are in combat but not reacting to a specific shooter.


Longer Version:
I think that the concept of trying to add a bit more rational thought into skills makes sense.

However, while everyone here clearly has admiration for the films - one must be very cautious to distinguish between "how things are supposed to work in the setting" with "that was just cool movie stuff".

Why you ask? (or not...).

because rationality and thinking how things work does not necessary have a relationship.

Characters don't dodge in the film, because they have plot armor most of the time. Conversely, storm troopers are not bad shots - luke is just the hero, and not supposed to get hit.

Leia does not get hit at the bunker because of a lucky shot - she got hit because at that point in the story telling, there was a downturn to increase tension.

While modern movies have overall upped the (attempt) at realism (say, john wick) in regards to combat, they still overall are story telling devices.

let me give another example;

I have some experience in sport fencing (actual fencing, with an epee, also sometimes known as "strip fencing" to segregate it from other forms).

In fencing you do a LOT of work for minimal movements that yield the most effective results in attack or defense (yes, this is a simplification).
Also have some experience in Kendo, while while different still shares the principals of efficiency of form.

Now, I also have a background in theater and stagework, including being trained in stage combat by certified stuntmen (safety is VERY important).

In this swordplay, the movements are designed so as to look cool - with big sweeps and flourishes and overly exaggerated moves. This is absolutely terrible if you are actually trying to NOT get hit (you leave yourself open all the time) and you want to hit your opponent (big moves telegraph what you are trying to do). But...it looks cool. Smile

(Side note: don't go to a kendo practice after having a stage combat rehearsal the same weekend.....).


if someone were trying to make a game and reverse engineer how to do believable combat, their source material might prove to be a challenge.

That is - if you watched a typical movie sword fight - it would break a lot of rules of common sense (but it might look cool) and be very difficult to model.

But if you watched a competitive match (fencing, kendo, etc.) you would get a very different reference point - one that might not cause as many challenges in trying to interpret rules or structure.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
I think this is a fascinating topic.

Welcome to the Pit. You really went straight for the deep end on your first day, eh?

Quote:
I think the advanced skill has merit as well.
It is almost like a passive defense if you know you are in combat but not reacting to a specific shooter.

That pretty much sums up what I'm going for.

Quote:
Characters don't dodge in the film, because they have plot armor most of the time. Conversely, storm troopers are not bad shots - luke is just the hero, and not supposed to get hit.

There is some truth to this, but it's important to note that characters are never seen to "dodge" on screen (at least not as the rules allow it to work). In the event of a blaster fight, characters - main or minor - invariably go straight for the nearest piece of cover and continue the battle from there. Only when the plot requires them to break cover (usually to escape or seek some advantage) do they actually get out in the open. The only exceptions to the rule are Jedi (on at least one occasion, Obi-wan can be seen ducking under a blaster bolt rather than parrying it with his lightsaber), whose precognitive abilities allow them to perceive incoming attacks with sufficient warning to be able to react to them.

My goal here is not to introduce realistic combat to Star Wars (I don't even think that's possible), but instead to shift combat in the game so that it more closely aligns with the films. The only way to do that is to alter the rules such that Dodge is watered down to the point where taking cover provides better protective options. If a character can get behind a sturdy object and fire around it, they receive a bonus of +4D to avoid being hit. By making Dodge an Advanced skill, a character has to put in quite a bit of CP expenditure to reach the point where their (A) Dodge skill provides a better advantage than taking cover.

Quote:
I have some experience in sport fencing (actual fencing, with an epee, also sometimes known as "strip fencing" to segregate it from other forms).

We have at least one other member with similar experience, so you are in good company.

Again, welcome to the Pit.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
I think this is a fascinating topic.


my TLDR Summary:
I don't think we can read that much into dodges in the movies.
However, I am going to let players use the higher of the dodge vs. range mod, unless they roll 1, then they get the lesser.

Oh, and I think the advanced skill has merit as well.
It is almost like a passive defense if you know you are in combat but not reacting to a specific shooter.


Longer Version:
I think that the concept of trying to add a bit more rational thought into skills makes sense.

However, while everyone here clearly has admiration for the films - one must be very cautious to distinguish between "how things are supposed to work in the setting" with "that was just cool movie stuff".

Why you ask? (or not...).

because rationality and thinking how things work does not necessary have a relationship.

Characters don't dodge in the film, because they have plot armor most of the time. Conversely, storm troopers are not bad shots - luke is just the hero, and not supposed to get hit.

Leia does not get hit at the bunker because of a lucky shot - she got hit because at that point in the story telling, there was a downturn to increase tension.

While modern movies have overall upped the (attempt) at realism (say, john wick) in regards to combat, they still overall are story telling devices.

let me give another example;

I have some experience in sport fencing (actual fencing, with an epee, also sometimes known as "strip fencing" to segregate it from other forms).

In fencing you do a LOT of work for minimal movements that yield the most effective results in attack or defense (yes, this is a simplification).
Also have some experience in Kendo, while while different still shares the principals of efficiency of form.

Now, I also have a background in theater and stagework, including being trained in stage combat by certified stuntmen (safety is VERY important).

In this swordplay, the movements are designed so as to look cool - with big sweeps and flourishes and overly exaggerated moves. This is absolutely terrible if you are actually trying to NOT get hit (you leave yourself open all the time) and you want to hit your opponent (big moves telegraph what you are trying to do). But...it looks cool. Smile

(Side note: don't go to a kendo practice after having a stage combat rehearsal the same weekend.....).


if someone were trying to make a game and reverse engineer how to do believable combat, their source material might prove to be a challenge.

That is - if you watched a typical movie sword fight - it would break a lot of rules of common sense (but it might look cool) and be very difficult to model.

But if you watched a competitive match (fencing, kendo, etc.) you would get a very different reference point - one that might not cause as many challenges in trying to interpret rules or structure.


Great post.

I tend to agree in general.

Though often times in play, a player will try to be "realistic" and do things that "make sense." For scenarios like these, it can be helpful to have a way of doing it.

Also, it allows for more managable encounters in terms of number of NPCs that the GM has to manage. Generally, by making things "more realistic" it is "harder" to overcome scores of enemies. (The PCs can also use it to their advantage against a lone BBEG).
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Welcome to the Pit. You really went straight for the deep end on your first day, eh?


Thank you sir for your wlecome!

I have been lurking for a long time, and have tremendous respect for the community here.

only recently joined as I am about to start up a D6 game again after many years (been playing swrpg for decades, but have not played d6 since early 2000's). It will be a heavily modified game - some based upon content I have seen here, other from my experiences in other systems.
(I will make other posts requesting input on my considered house rules in their own threads).

I like this associated rule as well;

Associated Rule: A moving character or object adds +1D to the Range Difficulty, whether they are Dodging or not.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
I like this associated rule as well;

Associated Rule: A moving character or object adds +1D to the Range Difficulty, whether they are Dodging or not.

I'm thinking it should be reduced to +1 or +2 if the character is moving toward/away from the shooter. Compensating for lateral motion is the hard part.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
I think this is a fascinating topic.





Longer Version:
I think that the concept of trying to add a bit more rational thought into skills makes sense.

However, while everyone here clearly has admiration for the films - one must be very cautious to distinguish between "how things are supposed to work in the setting" with "that was just cool movie stuff".

Why you ask? (or not...).

because rationality and thinking how things work does not necessary have a relationship.

Characters don't dodge in the film, because they have plot armor most of the time. Conversely, storm troopers are not bad shots - luke is just the hero, and not supposed to get hit.

Leia does not get hit at the bunker because of a lucky shot - she got hit because at that point in the story telling, there was a downturn to increase tension.

While modern movies have overall upped the (attempt) at realism (say, john wick) in regards to combat, they still overall are story telling devices.

let me give another example;

I have some experience in sport fencing (actual fencing, with an epee, also sometimes known as "strip fencing" to segregate it from other forms).

In fencing you do a LOT of work for minimal movements that yield the most effective results in attack or defense (yes, this is a simplification).
Also have some experience in Kendo, while while different still shares the principals of efficiency of form.

Now, I also have a background in theater and stagework, including being trained in stage combat by certified stuntmen (safety is VERY important).

In this swordplay, the movements are designed so as to look cool - with big sweeps and flourishes and overly exaggerated moves. This is absolutely terrible if you are actually trying to NOT get hit (you leave yourself open all the time) and you want to hit your opponent (big moves telegraph what you are trying to do). But...it looks cool. Smile

(Side note: don't go to a kendo practice after having a stage combat rehearsal the same weekend.....).


if someone were trying to make a game and reverse engineer how to do believable combat, their source material might prove to be a challenge.

That is - if you watched a typical movie sword fight - it would break a lot of rules of common sense (but it might look cool) and be very difficult to model.

But if you watched a competitive match (fencing, kendo, etc.) you would get a very different reference point - one that might not cause as many challenges in trying to interpret rules or structure.


Hot dang, you are right on the money. Thanks for your observations!

Also, I've got a fair bit of experience in historical fencing and the scantest bit of training with stage combat. So I can thoroughly relate

Let me tell you, we used to love getting strip fencers in our historical fencing practices. Historical fencers have a lot to learn from strip fencers in terms of footwork.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
pakman wrote:
I like this associated rule as well;

Associated Rule: A moving character or object adds +1D to the Range Difficulty, whether they are Dodging or not.

I'm thinking it should be reduced to +1 or +2 if the character is moving toward/away from the shooter. Compensating for lateral motion is the hard part.

This suggestion occurred before I wrote up my more detailed Speed Modifier Rules. I've edited the original rule to use the Speed Modifiers instead.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a similar note, I'm wondering whether the (A) Dodge skill should also be stacked with Cover modifiers, representing the character's ability to make better use of said Cover, such as being able to duck behind it or set up behind it in such a way as to provide better protection.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see the concept of "Dodge" in a fire fight as an active or passive action.
Not using the skill we have the general ducking, diving for cover etc.

However we do also have the cases where you actively make an effort to avoid being shot but without diving for cover.

One such instance is zig zag running to counter sniper fire.

But I am unsure if it is to the level of an advanced skill as I belive anyone can run zig zag

I can also see the Dodge skill have a indirect use, where a player uses his dodge skill to scan the immiate battlefield allowing him/her to easier move and dive to cover when needed.

One application of Dodge can be a PRE combat roll, giving you a boost to any defensive actions, like zig zag running, diving for cover or "genrally harder to hit due to moving"

maybe based on the roll result, like rolling a 20 on Dodge you get a +2 Bonus to be hit, basically the difficulty to hit you is increased with +2
and so on
this as a secondary use of the skill in addtion to active use like on zig zaging and the like with the secondary use maybe being the one used the most
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, over in the Defense Skill topic, Naaman made this point, which is part of the impetus for how I got thinking about Dodge as an Advanced Skill in the first place.

As written, the Dodge (A) Skill focuses solely on how to avoid being hit while also Moving. I wanted to come up with a way to include the aspect that Naaman described in the above link, but wasn't quite sure how to do it. I was primarily looking at using either a Tactics or Search roll to examine the surroundings and identify usable Cover and Concealment features (and there may still be a place for that), but it seemed like a lot of extra steps.

But then, a pretty simple idea occurred to me last night: allow the character's (A) Dodge skill level to be applied to either 1) the character's Velocity Modifier if moving, or 2) stacked with whatever partial Cover is provided by whatever form of Protection the character is behind. Thus, (A) Dodge would now represent both aspects of what Naaman was talking about: moving in a manner that maximizes the chances of not being hit, and making the best use of available Cover.

Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm warming up to the idea I proposed above, but it occurs to me that, if the new option is included, "Dodge" no longer seems like the best descriptor for everything this skill does. At the moment, I'm considering "Avoid", but I'm open to alternative suggestions.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, here's the write-up for the (A) Avoid skill, as described above.

    (A) Avoid

    Time Taken: One Round

    Specializations: None

    Prerequisite: Running 4D (Or Agility 4D, if you prefer)

    Avoid functions similarly to a "reaction skill", in that it allows characters to make themselves more difficult targets for ranged attacks. However, there are some crucial differences. Whereas other reaction skills allow the character to react to attacks that they can see, most modern ranged attacks are beyond the ability of unaugmented organic senses to even perceive, much less react to. As such, a character using Avoid is assuming that they will be attacked, and preemptively moves in a manner that makes them harder to hit.

    Avoid also allows characters to make better use of partial Cover, which is useful when looking around the edges of said cover, or attempting to fire weapons around it

    How To Use: Avoid can be used in one of two ways:

      -In combination with a Move Action, which must be declared and rolled separately. The Result of the Avoid roll is then added to the Range Difficulty of any weapon fired at the Avoiding character. Both rolls are subject to MAPs. (Optional Rule: A moving character or Vehicle adds their Velocity Modifier to the Range Difficulty, whether they are Avoiding or not.)

      -May be stacked with the Cover Modifier of any Partial Cover.

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