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garhkal
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 Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:01 am Post subject: |
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Does it still work vs escaping the blast radius of grenades or the like?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Does it still work vs escaping the blast radius of grenades or the like? |
Not conceptually, no. Right now, my dividing line between this and Defense is whether or not a character's normal senses allow them to respond to a specific attack, or if they can only assume they are going to be attacked and behave in such a way as to make themselves a more difficult target. As such, while Defense does not specifically include diving away from a thrown hand grenade, it would fall under Defense's purview.
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Dr. Bidlo
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Joined: 24 Nov 2021
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Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, the fact that you can make it easier to get hit with a poor dodge roll bothers me... I know thete is an explanation for it, but it often results in a metal game in my experience where players have to use calculus to determine if they would like to even bother to dodge and suffer the MAP or just leave it to chance with a more predictable difficulty. This can bog down the game, but also makes players think more about using cover instead of jiggle dancing unscathed to avoid 20 stormtroopers shots every round. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I'm basically working on a complete rewrite of dodging, so as to better fit with how combat works in the films. The bullet points version is:
-A stationary target's Difficulty to Hit is as-listed for the attacker's weapon range.
-A moving target may add its Velocity Modifier to the Difficulty to Hit.
-A character with the (A) Avoid skill may also add their (A) Skill Dice (subject to MAPs), resulting in Base Difficulty + Velocity Modifier + (A) Avoid.
-A Jedi who has Lightsaber Combat "up" may instead use their Defense Skill to counter ranged attacks, plus any bonuses generated from the power itself.
-Alternately, any character can hide behind whatever Cover is available, but if they try to fight around the Cover, they're only partially protected, per the Partial Cover post.
-Characters with (A) Avoid may also stack their skill dice with Cover to provide better protection.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | Yeah, the fact that you can make it easier to get hit with a poor dodge roll bothers me... I know thete is an explanation for it, but it often results in a metal game in my experience where players have to use calculus to determine if they would like to even bother to dodge and suffer the MAP or just leave it to chance with a more predictable difficulty. This can bog down the game, but also makes players think more about using cover instead of jiggle dancing unscathed to avoid 20 stormtroopers shots every round. |
Not to undermine the point of this thread which has been well-stated, but just as a quick reply to this tangential comment, there is a very simple solution to the problem stated about normal RAW dodge rules making it easier to get hit. A very slight tweak to "The new difficulty to hit is the dodge roll or the original base difficulty, whichever is higher" does the trick. Make it so reactions can only help, but not hurt.
I'm thinking about implementing this in my because it still won't always be the case that there is nothing to lose by dodging. Dodging either adds to the character's current MAP or uses one of his declared actions (if the character has any actions remaining in the round). A character may still judge that the chance of dodge helping and the level at which it is likely to help may simply not be worth its effect on other actions. Now it is true that if the character being attacked is the last action of the round, which sometimes occurs for PCs that often win initiative, it may really be the case where they is nothing to lose. However I do enforce that there has to be room to dodge, so last action or not, dodging may simply not be feasible in all situations.
But again, this is not a statement against the possible house rule of this thread. The easily tweakable rule is not alone a reason to completely alter dodge in RAW, but it is equally the case that that this slight tweak being available is not a reason to not more significantly alter dodge rules, especially if there are other purposes for that change.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:38 am Post subject: |
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On that "there needs to be ROOM to dodge". I remember one fight on a pirate's base, one of the corridors iirc, was described as barely wide enough for one man in armor to walk down. The DM said to us "due to the tight confines of the corridor, IF a fire-fight breaks out;
A) only two folks can shoot, the one in front, and the one directly behind him, over his shoulder.
B) any dodging by those in FRONT, will be penalized due to not having any room to move, but those behind him, get cover".
YET some of the other players, WHINED that "they should be able to dodge at FULL, as they never saw anything in ANY book, saying you need room to dodge...."
In a way, i understood where they were coming from, BUT I ALSO see the DM's point of view.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like a bunch of rules lawyers, honestly. I'd say your GM was in the right.
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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I've often had to remind players a DM CAN Always add in modifiers, based on the situation.. Such as one game of ADND at a con, a player b**** me out, for imposing a -4 to his save vs a dragon's breath, because he was CAUGHT IN a web spell at the time.. and he felt he "STILL should have been able to dodge it...
I thought the -4 penalty, vice just flat out saying "Since you are STUCK, you can't even DODGE it, so you get no save", was being merciful.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | On that "there needs to be ROOM to dodge". I remember one fight on a pirate's base, one of the corridors iirc, was described as barely wide enough for one man in armor to walk down. The DM said to us "due to the tight confines of the corridor, IF a fire-fight breaks out;
A) only two folks can shoot, the one in front, and the one directly behind him, over his shoulder.
B) any dodging by those in FRONT, will be penalized due to not having any room to move, but those behind him, get cover".
YET some of the other players, WHINED that "they should be able to dodge at FULL, as they never saw anything in ANY book, saying you need room to dodge...."
In a way, i understood where they were coming from, BUT I ALSO see the DM's point of view. |
Per the rules, the GM is lord and master over the rules. But the GM is suspect for that hallway in the first place. I have spoken.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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IMO, the hallway makes for a great place for a high Knowledge character to roll Tactics and discern that it's a great place for an ambush, and that they should consider other alternatives. If they're still stupid enough to try it, then they deserve what they get.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
Per the rules, the GM is lord and master over the rules. But the GM is suspect for that hallway in the first place. I have spoken. |
THe owner OF the base, deliberately set some of the corridors up, JUST for that reason.. To choke point it, for those wishing to attack him.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | IMO, the hallway makes for a great place for a high Knowledge character to roll Tactics and discern that it's a great place for an ambush, and that they should consider other alternatives. If they're still stupid enough to try it, then they deserve what they get. |
Even after the DM described the hall, AND I SPOKE UP about "hey guys, this looks like it was made this way, to mess with folks invading, SUCH AS US", i got overruled by the others.. Luckily i hung back, letting the OTHERS take the pain..
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| That is fair game. They were warned... |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:57 am Post subject: |
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Over the many decades, i've lost track of the # of times i have seen groups, who EVEN AFTER being warned of a great ambush site, or choke hold area, for the ENEMY, STILL WALKED INTO IT..
Then whined when they started geting cut into.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Over the many decades, i've lost track of the # of times i have seen groups, who EVEN AFTER being warned of a great ambush site, or choke hold area, for the ENEMY, STILL WALKED INTO IT..
Then whined when they started geting cut into. |
I have found this happens when the characters think their die codes are good enough that they need not fear any opposition. Narrow corridors and loss of equipment are two great equalizers to reset the bar from time to time. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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OR they've played under other dms, who no matter HOW Stupid they were as a group, never went in for the kill, because the DM disliked killing or even seriously wounding characters....
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