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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | I was saying that, as a reason WHY in the films, they never seemed to worry about replacing power packs etc. NOT a reason for why WE shouldn't worry about it..
BUT we did see R2 get recharged Several times.. SO obviously THERE IS issues with fuel/power to worry about. |
The question then becomes, is "seeing a droid recharge" so essential to the story that the GM has to take the time to track it round-by-round, or is it something that can be done in the background or "off-screen" and only become a factor as the story requires it (such as making it a potential complication on a Wild 1)? I mean, it's assumed that PCs eat, sleep and go to the bathroom, too, but is that something you feel the need to track so you can tell each character precisely when they need to "take a break"?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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As an aside, I think we can all accept that Jetpacks provide little or no Cover (maybe 25% from the rear) and are probably a little fragile. But the interesting thought is, can a character provide Cover for the Jet Pack, and if so, how much? It'd make sense, after all, if a character is wearing a jet pack on their back, and being shot at from the Front, very little of the actual jet pack will be exposed to weapons fire, and any shots that do hit would have to penetrate through the character (as well as whatever armor the character is wearing) to hit the jet pack.
I don't have any rules for this, but the thought just occurred to me. Discuss.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Not only do they provide less cover for "passengers" as other vehicles, damage to them can seriously harm wearers. They are simply dangerous, and thus not well suited to extended travel. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | As an aside, I think we can all accept that Jetpacks provide little or no Cover (maybe 25% from the rear) and are probably a little fragile. But the interesting thought is, can a character provide Cover for the Jet Pack, and if so, how much? It'd make sense, after all, if a character is wearing a jet pack on their back, and being shot at from the Front, very little of the actual jet pack will be exposed to weapons fire, and any shots that do hit would have to penetrate through the character (as well as whatever armor the character is wearing) to hit the jet pack.
I don't have any rules for this, but the thought just occurred to me. Discuss. |
Yes, please do discuss.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Dredwulf60 wrote: | I do it pretty much as CR describes. Running a mando game, a few characters have jet packs.
Because in my game, I routinely (and sacrilegiously) use dice other than the D6 for certain things, I assign a die type as a durability/endurance for certain makes and models of jet and rocket packs.
Each round of flight prompts a roll on that durability/ endurance die. A '1' result on the roll is a warning. The user ow knows there is a potential issue.
The endurance die is now 1 class worse. (ie a D6 has a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a 1. After rolling a '1' for a warning, it would automatically go to a D4; now a 1 in 4 chance of rolling a 1 each round of continuing flight.)
Another '1' result means the jet pack stops working. Immediately.
Thus after the first warning, most characters will land unless the story factors are urgent enough to risk it. |
Polyhedral sacrilege, yes, but a progressive increase of chances for jet pack disfunction, check...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | I recall you mentioning the use of non-D6 dice in the ammo discussion I linked above. I can see the same system working with D6 dice by increasing the Difficulty 1 step for every Wild Dice result, then give the packs a D rating with which to roll against it.
Say a jet pack has a Fuel rating of 1D, with Difficulty starting at 0. The jet pack operator gets a Wild 1, but since the Difficulty is 0, it's an automatic success. However, the Difficulty for the next roll is increased to 5, which the pack has only a 1/3 chance of tieing or beating. |
Now we're talking...
| Dredwulf60 wrote: | For those failures that occur on the first round of flight...
Well...it can happen.
I rationalize it with the assumption that it's not JUST about fuel. When is the last time there was maintenance on it? What other factors might have gone wrong? When was the last time the characters actually made sure it was topped up?
One of those negative factors for why not everyone uses them is the reliability.
If a character went out of his way, just before a mission that he knew flight was going to be important, and made sure to tell me as GM that he was doing maintenance and topping up the fuel cells, then I'd probably let him ignore the the first 'warning' result and let him keep his original durability die class until he rolled another '1'. |
I've always had this sort of mentality in general. I don't want to deal with consumable resource accounting so much that I presume characters replenish their ammo when back at the ship/base, without the players telling me they did or even precise accounting for ammo packs. But for wild die complications, ammo packs can still go dry, even if it is early in the adventure. Maybe the character forgot this time. If the player says, "But I even mentioned my PC replenished ammo even though you don't require us too," after the battle is over I might reply that the PC then notices a microfracture in the ammo case or the ammo cartridge was jammed slightly out of position, so there must have been a slow leak of blaster gas.
The same thing could apply to flight packs, and other things could certainly go wrong early in adventures to account for the random game mechanics. Maybe there could even be a slow leak of fuel because the fuel port was slightly askew, but I would be concerned with what form the fuel is in (liquid, etc.) and the properties it might have (flammable, etc.). But for the sake of my disbelief suspension, I prefer that there is an increase in chances of the fuel running out the more it is used without refueling.
Maybe to also represent the overall volatile nature (and risk) of flight packs in general, something bad happening with a roll of 1 on the wild die every single round they are in use is the way to go. I still might also keep track of rounds for fuel because it really wouldn't be a burden for me to do so as flight packs are not common in my game. But maybe it is not a firm end of use when the time comes and the odds of fuel running out go up every round after a point.
Thanks, guys.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Not only do they provide less cover for "passengers" as other vehicles, damage to them can seriously harm wearers. They are simply dangerous, and thus not well suited to extended travel. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | As an aside, I think we can all accept that Jetpacks provide little or no Cover (maybe 25% from the rear) and are probably a little fragile. But the interesting thought is, can a character provide Cover for the Jet Pack, and if so, how much? It'd make sense, after all, if a character is wearing a jet pack on their back, and being shot at from the Front, very little of the actual jet pack will be exposed to weapons fire, and any shots that do hit would have to penetrate through the character (as well as whatever armor the character is wearing) to hit the jet pack.
I don't have any rules for this, but the thought just occurred to me. Discuss. |
Yes, please do discuss. |
Well, having a Jetpack blow up on a Destroyed result seems perfectly reasonable. The rules for penalizing damaged weapons (2R&E pg. 95) seem like a decent starting place.
As far as using # of charges remaining to calculate damage, this isn't always the case. Sometimes, having less fuel actually makes something more volatile. Case in point: gasoline tankers are actually more hazardous when they're close to empty, as the fuel-air vapor is a lot more likely to explode than a full tank (fuel+air+spark). I'd probably just go for a set value and be done with it; something suitably dangerous to the wearer that it becomes part of the trade-off for wearing such a "convenient" propulsion system.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
become a factor as the story requires it (such as making it a potential complication on a Wild 1)? |
Why do you seem to think everything needs to be 'related to rolling a 1 on the wild die'??
| CRMcNeill wrote: | As an aside, I think we can all accept that Jetpacks provide little or no Cover (maybe 25% from the rear) and are probably a little fragile. But the interesting thought is, can a character provide Cover for the Jet Pack, and if so, how much? It'd make sense, after all, if a character is wearing a jet pack on their back, and being shot at from the Front, very little of the actual jet pack will be exposed to weapons fire, and any shots that do hit would have to penetrate through the character (as well as whatever armor the character is wearing) to hit the jet pack.
I don't have any rules for this, but the thought just occurred to me. Discuss. |
90% or better from the front. 0 protection from the flank/rear!
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Why do you seem to think everything needs to be 'related to rolling a 1 on the wild die'?? |
I won't speak for him, but wild die is rolled for every roll so it is already there. It's convenient.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | As far as using # of charges remaining to calculate damage, this isn't always the case. Sometimes, having less fuel actually makes something more volatile. Case in point: gasoline tankers are actually more hazardous when they're close to empty, as the fuel-air vapor is a lot more likely to explode than a full tank (fuel+air+spark). I'd probably just go for a set value and be done with it; something suitably dangerous to the wearer that it becomes part of the trade-off for wearing such a "convenient" propulsion system. |
I agree. Multiplying the damage per charge remaining is harsh.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Well, having a Jetpack blow up on a Destroyed result seems perfectly reasonable. The rules for penalizing damaged weapons (2R&E pg. 95) seem like a decent starting place. |
I didn't make a dedicated system for damaged flight packs. I've got armor/powersuits, and a general object damage based on the weapon damage rule. I'll consider if it needs its own or not.
https://rancorpit.com/jotw/damage.html
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Why do you seem to think everything needs to be 'related to rolling a 1 on the wild die'?? |
The only person saying that I think that is you. I have even stated in this very topic that using Wild Dice as an ammo/fuel limiter should not be applied to everything.
Why do you seem to think that everything should be sublimated to bean counting?
| Quote: | | 90% or better from the front. 0 protection from the flank/rear! |
There is no 90% under the RAW, just 75% and 100%. Of the two, I'd be more inclined to go with 100%/Full from the front.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Just add a notation to the Jetpack stat that, on a Destroyed result, the pack explodes, inflicting #D damage. |
Should probably also include a rule allowing a Dexterity check of some kind to ditch the pack before it blows up (as seen in AotC).
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:33 pm Post subject: Jump Packs and Flight Packs |
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Cool.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I've discussed this elsewhere, by proposing splitting them into Flight Packs and Jump Packs, where the Flight Pack operates like a vehicle with vehicle stats, and the Jump Pack is more in line with the existing Jet Pack rules, and allows the character to make point-to-point jumps. The Jump Pack can cover more distance in a single round, but the Flight Pack has greater top speed and effective range. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | It is true that small droids are shown using repulsorlift tech, presumably without having to constantly recharge. This probably should be a key to Star Wars flight pack technobabble. But in my mind flight packs having repulsorlifts would still need to also have a second power for fast movement. |
Agreed. My take is that repulsorlifts provide lift only - it even says so in the name - and that thrust must come from a different source. However, if a jet pack also incorporates repulsorlifts, the jet (or rocket, as the case may be) no longer has to provide both lift and thrust, which takes a lot of the load (both power output and fuel consumption) off of the thruster. |
I've decided to officially adopt this nomenclature with these concepts. No matter if they are jet or rocket-based technologies, in my SWU the defining difference between jump packs and flight packs is the absence or presence of a repulsorlift generator. Jump packs don't have repulsorlifts, and flight packs do.
In accordance with this, both packs can still be operated by my zero-g/freefall/flying dexterity skill, but Flight Packs can also be operated by repulsorlift operation. (I've done away with the jet/rocket pack operation skill). Likewise, Flight Packs an be repaired with the repulsorlift technical skill.
The lift provided by the repulsorlift in a flight pack does allow for the thruster to operate with lower fuel consumption, but that still won't give them infinite fuel. And there is still a higher element of personal danger with using jump or flight packs, so it is safer to use these technologies while wearing armor, like jumptroopers and Mandalorians do.
As a related tangent, I'll go ahead and mention here that I also envisioned a 'repulsorlift parachute' as existing in Star Wars: an emergency harness (possibly single-use) that will decelerate someone's decent if falling out of a space or air vehicle, from up to a standard gravity/atmosphere' terminal velocity to close to zero. It works best from a fall above 50 meters, but it can still reduce falling damage from a lower height.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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Some precedent. WH40K 1E has a device called a Gravity Chute that is exactly like what you describe. It's called a Gravity Chute and is essentially a repulsorlift backpack that allows a character to "float safely to the ground from any height...either from low flying aircraft or from the upper atmosphere."
Another, more versatile option from FASA's Renegade Legion setting is the Bounce Pack, which not only does the above, but serves as a mobility enhancement once on the ground by negating most of the character's weight. Move Speed is tripled - presumably by use of a bounding action - and (while this isn't clearly spelled out) most likely allows the character to make very long jumps to clear obstacles. It's not a jet pack, but it makes for a great mobility enhancement for infantry.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:04 am Post subject: |
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Cool. I honestly have zero experience with WH40K and had no idea that even existed. It seems a natural extension of repulsorlift technology, especially if flight packs have it to make them more credible. I actually first thought of the deceleration harness last December when I was creating Star Wars D6 Damage webpages, which included falling damage and crash landings. But unlike repulsorlift vehicles which keep you aloft up to a certain flight ceiling, the deceleration harness only slows down the last 50m of your fall (it must have sensors to sense the ground). That's what makes me feel like this is a single-use thing.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Cool. I honestly have zero experience with WH40K and had no idea that even existed. |
There are a few cool pieces of anti-gravity tech in WH40K. The main one I want to introduce is called a Suspensor, which is basically just an anti-gravity generator a little larger than a hockey puck (10cm in diameter). It's attached to heavy and/or bulky pieces of equipment in order to off-set any weight penalties. The only reason I haven't introduced stats for it already is because I'm still hung up on a decent rule for Encumbrance.
| Quote: | | It seems a natural extension of repulsorlift technology, especially if flight packs have it to make them more credible. I actually first thought of the deceleration harness last December when I was creating Star Wars D6 Damage webpages, which included falling damage and crash landings. But unlike repulsorlift vehicles which keep you aloft up to a certain flight ceiling, the deceleration harness only slows down the last 50m of your fall (it must have sensors to sense the ground). That's what makes me feel like this is a single-use thing. |
Maybe that could be a setting, instead? Allow the character to select at what point it kicks in, so they have the option of a leisurely drift to the ground, or something equivalent to a HALO jump. I was thinking something more complex, with the ability to move laterally ala HAHO jump parachuting, but the RAW already has rules for it in the Gliders (see Rules of Engagement, pgs 51-53). If nothing else, I imagine the wearer would want to initiate a "test slowdown" just to make sure his device is working, as opposed to finding out the hard way a few thousand meters later.
I suppose the straight gravity chute would be more akin to an emergency backup chute or fast-roping out of a helicopter, although the single-use aspect of it bothers me. Given a choice, I'd much rather incorporate the function into a more multi-purpose device like the Bounce Pack, as opposed to something that could only be used once then either discarded, or lugged around uselessly afterward.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:01 pm Post subject: Emergency Deceleration Harness |
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Full personal disclosure for this discussion: I've suffered from acrophobia my whole life. I happen to have an experienced skydiving cousin whose parachute failed from 100 feet up, and he luckily survived his fall (with severe injuries including brain trauma with temporary amnesia). He once asked me if I wanted to watch his fall on video and I said no thanks! And for the first time in 15 years, I just recently flew on a plane.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | It seems a natural extension of repulsorlift technology, especially if flight packs have it to make them more credible. I actually first thought of the deceleration harness last December when I was creating Star Wars D6 Damage webpages, which included falling damage and crash landings. But unlike repulsorlift vehicles which keep you aloft up to a certain flight ceiling, the deceleration harness only slows down the last 50m of your fall (it must have sensors to sense the ground). That's what makes me feel like this is a single-use thing. |
Maybe that could be a setting, instead? Allow the character to select at what point it kicks in, so they have the option of a leisurely drift to the ground, or something equivalent to a HALO jump. I was thinking something more complex, with the ability to move laterally ala HAHO jump parachuting, but the RAW already has rules for it in the Gliders (see Rules of Engagement, pgs 51-53). If nothing else, I imagine the wearer would want to initiate a "test slowdown" just to make sure his device is working, as opposed to finding out the hard way a few thousand meters later.
I suppose the straight gravity chute would be more akin to an emergency backup chute or fast-roping out of a helicopter, although the single-use aspect of it bothers me. Given a choice, I'd much rather incorporate the function into a more multi-purpose device like the Bounce Pack, as opposed to something that could only be used once then either discarded, or lugged around uselessly afterward. |
You are thinking of reusable military applications, and you have a much better grip on those things since that seems to be the applications in the source setting you are familiar with. My main feedback for that is my general concern for introducing all new tech to the SWU: Does it feel Star Wars? So have at it, and like anything else, the rest of us can either take it or leave it.
As I stated, the application I was thinking of does not operate quite the same as we see repulsorlift tech operate in the films, which is what made me think of it as for emergency use. Up to a certain flight ceiling, repulsorlift vehicles can just hover at a constant height. Landspeeders and speeder bikes hover when they seem to be off, so it really must be a low power standby mode.
In the technobabble we introduced for flight packs, we agreed that a small repulsorlift generator provides the lift, and the thrust is the jet/rocket tech. While it is in use, you can hover in place or move around, the thrusting around using more power of course. However, I do not see that when thruster fuel runs out, the repulsorlift still operates, so that it could still be used to hover in place or to float by pushing off something. That just does not seem Star Wars to me, so I see the repulsorlift generator and jet/rocket thruster using the same fuel source so whenever it is used up, it is done for both. So for me, the repulsorlift tech in a flight pack is pure technobabble to aid in disbelief suspension, and provides no additional functions.
My Star Wars version of a parachute, the emergency deceleration harness that I envision, has a small repulsorlift generator. I do not see the emergency deceleration harness as having the option to hover at a constant height. Its purpose is to get you to the ground safely like a parachute, and the repulsorlift tech serves no purpose beyond that. Also unlike the flight packs, they have no thrusters. While falling, a character's player could roll their zero-g/freefall/flying skill to attempt to somewhat direct their decent like real skydivers do. Falling through the atmosphere of an earthlike planet (a "standard planet" in Star Wars), a character would reach a terminal velocity from falls above a certain height, so the force required for the deceleration would max out at a certain point. With real world parachutes, there is minimum height that it must be deployed for it have time to decelerate you to a safe velocity when you touch down. Since the purpose is to get you to the ground safely, the harness only needs to start working at a certain height above the ground, just like a parachute.
So if falling from a great height, you reach terminal velocity at some point and the harness only needs to activate to a certain point to slow your decent to almost zero before you touch down, and thus it is only on at the end of your decent. Now a parachute can open earlier than necessary and still work, but one difference with this emergency use SW technology with limited power is that it shouldn't start working too early, or else it would use up its power too soon and you would start to free fall again. So you would not want to test it while falling, kind of like how you would not want to deploy your parachute in the plane before you jump. No tech is perfect and there is always a chance of failure, no matter how small. Maybe a GM could roll 1D and if the result is 1, roll it again and a second 1 means failure, thus a 1-in-36 chance of failure. Or maybe it would require a very easy survival roll to use.
The bottom line on the difference of the emergency deceleration harness and other repulsorlift technology is that you definitely never just hover at a certain height, and you never ascend. It only needs to decelerate your decent and nothing more, which makes me see this as an emergency tech with a limited charge, which allows me to accept this as small tech. I guess it wouldn't need to be single-use and throw away, but it should be single-use and it needs recharged before using it again. It would make sense if the harness doubles as a life jacket for water landings. The harness could be used without or without breath masks for unbreathable atmospheres or spacesuits for more inhospitable settings. This emergency repulsorlift tech does not offend my sense of SW verisimilitude. It feels like a natural extension of repulsorlift tech and a Star Wars version of an emergency parachute. Most airspeeders should carry them, and they could be in the escape pods of spaceships, as a backup to that emergency tech.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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That makes sense. My only suggestion would be that there should be a test phase during the initial stages of the drop where the repulsorlift kicks in enough to let the user know that it's working and give them a chance to fix it or activate a backup before it hits the ground. I also vaguely recall something along these lines in the Honorverse, used to deploy power-armor Marines from low-flying aircraft. Off to do some reading.
EDIT: Okay, I remembered it correctly, but it’s not as pertinent. Basically, it’s the same as what we’re looking at, but at the end of a tether.
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