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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:15 pm Post subject: The Force and Falling Damage |
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It has come up in another topic that Force users have some mechanism to mitigate or eliminate falling damage. Rather than hijack OP's topic, let's move the discussion here.
I see several avenues to achieve this result, all based on or extrapolated from other powers:1) Telekinetically slowing the character's fall to manageable speed.
2) An obscure Absorb/Dissipate variant that works on gravity, effectively reducing the effective of gravity on the character without altering its mass.
3) An expanded version of Absorb/Dissipate Energy that works against kinetic attacks and impact energy (falling damage). Discuss.
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RyanDarkstar
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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From the Zabrak thread:
| RyanDarkstar wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | Maul is always going to be a special case on account of his Force skills. Honestly, I'm surprised there's no SWU equivalent of Featherfall for Force Sensitives to reduce falling damage; it seems an obvious evolution of basic TK. |
There was an episode of The Clone Wars, Landing at Point Rain, where Anakin and Ahsoka destroy a wall to continue their assault on Geonosis. After dropping explosives, Rex is Force-pushed over the side and the Jedi soar passed the screaming clone commander. At the last moment the Jedi flip and Force-push Iron Man-style to land on the ground. Rex is then caught with telekinesis and lowered safely to the ground. |
I like keeping this as another aspect of telekinesis from what was shown in The Clone Wars. TK's augmentation of jumping which Qui-gon and Obi-wan used when they hopped down from the ducts to stow aboard the battle droid transports could be a different way to achieve the same goal.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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The problem I see there is that super-jumping under the RAW is handled by Enhance Attribute, which to me implies the Force super-charging the Jedi's muscles (Strength) to "push" harder and further. TK doesn't have much to do with that.
Also, not to nit-pick, but the use of Force Push against the ground doesn't seem to occur in the films; Jedi simply drop to the ground from a great height with little or no effort. Not saying that it couldn't be used like that, but that it doesn't appear to be the "normal" method, so to speak.
Making the power TK-based raises another question; since TK is an Alter power, the Jedi wouldn't be able to use TK on themselves since Alter's portfolio covers affecting things outside of themselves. Based on the RAW, any such power would have to use Control. But then the question becomes, would a TK-based power focused solely on one's self require TK as a prerequisite, or would it need to be ret-conned as a prerequisite for TK?
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Whill
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I think a Force power of this nature might seem reasonable. Just keep in mind that Lucas clearly wanted it to be possible that Force characters could still die by falling. |
I'd say the solution there is that, while a Force character can fall from great heights, what they fall into matters. Palpatine falling into a ray shield of some sort on his way down the shaft on the DS2 would be a decent explanation (seeing as how, in RotS, it's shown that Force users can't just ignore ray shields, either).
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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In The High Republic Jedi are now essentially super-heroes, ala the Avengers. They can now fall literally 1,000s of meters and land light as a feather. Other than just shaking my head no, I did create a Force power for it in my [i]The High Republic: Light of the Jedi Sourcebook". Maybe it will help with what you are trying to do.
| Quote: | Force Controlled Descent
Control Difficulty: Very Easy 3-6 meters, Easy 7-12 meters, Moderate 13-18 meters, Difficult 19-30 meters, Very Difficult 31-50 meters, Heroic 51+ meters.
Effect: The Jedi uses the Force to lessen the pull of gravity allowing them to fall from great heights, floating to the ground and landing light as a feather.
Source: Stats by Emperor Ollie
Appearance: N. The High Republic: Light of the Jedi |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think it depends on the fall. I notice that in the movies, they don't appear to fall any slower than free fall, so I don't think the power should be telekinetic.
I used to simply interpret it as Reduce Injury at the moment of impact, but that doesn't seem like something Jedi would do as often as purposely jump down from heights that would seem fatal or nearly so.
I'd be inclined to make it an effect of enhance attribute while also adding that enhance attribute allows a user to surpass normally achievable limits. That is, for an athletic feat, there is no limit to how much can be performed, provided the roll is high enough.
This can also explain the fall survival. Enhancing strength would enhance damage resistance. It could explain why Qui-Gon doesn't blow out his knees when he jumps down off the platform after knocking Darth Maul down (who should have been killed or seriously injured by that far of a fall, but also was not). It is reasonable that both of them had activated enhance attribute to maximize their chances in the fight.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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That would seem to fall in line with the Absorb/Dissipate Energy option I mentioned above. I've suggested the possibility elsewhere of allowing Absorb/Dissipate to be used against kinetic energy, so this would be a pretty simple extension of that.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | That would seem to fall in line with the Absorb/Dissipate Energy option I mentioned above. I've suggested the possibility elsewhere of allowing Absorb/Dissipate to be used against kinetic energy, so this would be a pretty simple extension of that. |
I suppose so. The way I read the power is that specifically excludes kinetic energy (and is meant more for radiated type of energy--which, by the "spirit" of the rules, would include blaster bolts and other "energy" weapons).
So I guess expanding it to just be energy in all forms could work.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:34 am Post subject: Re: The Force and Falling Damage |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | It has come up in another topic that Force users have some mechanism to mitigate or eliminate falling damage. Rather than hijack OP's topic, let's move the discussion here.
I see several avenues to achieve this result, all based on or extrapolated from other powers:1) Telekinetically slowing the character's fall to manageable speed.
2) An obscure Absorb/Dissipate variant that works on gravity, effectively reducing the effective of gravity on the character without altering its mass.
3) An expanded version of Absorb/Dissipate Energy that works against kinetic attacks and impact energy (falling damage). Discuss. |
For ME< i lean to 1.. Make it something they learn AFTER they get TK. NOT just another 'aspect' to ab/dis energy..
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | I think a Force power of this nature seems reasonable. Just keep in mind that Lucas clearly wanted it to be possible that Force characters could still die by falling. |
I'd say the solution there is that, while a Force character can fall from great heights, what they fall into matters. Palpatine falling into a ray shield of some sort on his way down the shaft on the DS2 would be a decent explanation (seeing as how, in RotS, it's shown that Force users can't just ignore ray shields, either). |
Windu also died from falling!!
| Naaman wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | That would seem to fall in line with the Absorb/Dissipate Energy option I mentioned above. I've suggested the possibility elsewhere of allowing Absorb/Dissipate to be used against kinetic energy, so this would be a pretty simple extension of that. |
I suppose so. The way I read the power is that specifically excludes kinetic energy (and is meant more for radiated type of energy--which, by the "spirit" of the rules, would include blaster bolts and other "energy" weapons).
So I guess expanding it to just be energy in all forms could work. |
If they can absorb kinetic energy, then they'd never need fear brawling damage, falls, firearms, grenades explosives etc.. Which to ME seems way too much.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | If they can absorb kinetic energy, then they'd never need fear brawling damage, falls, firearms, grenades explosives etc.. Which to ME seems way too much. |
I'm actually with garhkal on this one. Expanding the absorb/dissipate energy power to include kinetic energy is OP.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Just keep in mind that Lucas clearly wanted it to be possible that Force characters could still die by falling. |
I'd say the solution there is that, while a Force character can fall from great heights, what they fall into matters. Palpatine falling into a ray shield of some sort on his way down the shaft on the DS2 would be a decent explanation (seeing as how, in RotS, it's shown that Force users can't just ignore ray shields, either). |
It would. It makes a lot of sense that there would be ray shields there. Even though DS-II was still under construction, it wouldn't make sense that there be this uncovered gaping hole between the throne room and the reactor core. But this would mean that ray shields don't just stop physical matter from passing through — they actually damage living matter hitting it. We would need rules for that.
| Naaman wrote: | I think it depends on the fall. I notice that in the movies, they don't appear to fall any slower than free fall, so I don't think the power should be telekinetic.
I used to simply interpret it as Reduce Injury at the moment of impact, but that doesn't seem like something Jedi would do as often as purposely jump down from heights that would seem fatal or nearly so.
I'd be inclined to make it an effect of enhance attribute while also adding that enhance attribute allows a user to surpass normally achievable limits. That is, for an athletic feat, there is no limit to how much can be performed, provided the roll is high enough.
This can also explain the fall survival. Enhancing strength would enhance damage resistance. It could explain why Qui-Gon doesn't blow out his knees when he jumps down off the platform after knocking Darth Maul down (who should have been killed or seriously injured by that far of a fall, but also was not). It is reasonable that both of them had activated enhance attribute to maximize their chances in the fight. |
I agree. To protect verisimilitude with the films, telekinesis definitely cannot be used to stop one's own falling, no matter if it seems like it should. Even Sith and Jedi Masters do not seem to fall any slower than anyone else in the films, so telekinesis doesn't seem to do that. Enhance attribute can increase strength (which includes damage resistance), and reduce injury may be used.
Maybe ray shields are particularly damaging to living beings, and the ray shields the Emperor fell into were capital ship scale. Maybe he was weakened by his own Force lightning he shot into Vader because he was touching Vader — Palpatine was very vengeance-minded so maybe he just thought, 'If I'm dying, I am taking this traitor with me.'
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | If they can absorb kinetic energy, then they'd never need fear brawling damage, falls, firearms, grenades explosives etc.. Which to ME seems way too much. |
I'm actually with garhkal on this one. Expanding the absorb/dissipate energy power to include kinetic energy is OP. |
But Absorb/Dissipate isn't a catch-all defense. Even characters who are adept at it (see Yoda in RotS) can get taken off guard and be unable to "set" themselves to take the hit. It's not like Absorb/Dissipate makes it easy, either; the Control Difficulty to absorb damage is Moderate plus the Damage roll.
| Whill wrote: | | It makes a lot of sense that there would be ray shields there. Even though DS-II was still under construction, it wouldn't make sense that there be this uncovered gaping hole between the throne room and the reactor core. But this would mean that ray shields don't just stop physical matter from passing through — they actually damage living matter hitting it. We would need rules for that. |
That's actually already part of my theory on Proton Torpedoes; the ray shields protecting the shaft on DS1 inflict damage on physical objects that come into contact with them. Thus, proton torpedoes had to be used because of their protective energy sheaths that help them penetrate. Another extant example would be planetary shields, where coming into contact with the shield inflicts damage.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I like the Absorb/Dissipate Falling Damage option... likely need a different name, but it conveys the concept of the mechanics.
While I'm all for flight via telekinesis, I don't think that's what's happening. A simple "Control roll to take a lot of the fall damage" is sufficient.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: The Force and Falling Damage |
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| garhkal wrote: | | For ME< i lean to 1.. Make it something they learn AFTER they get TK. NOT just another 'aspect' to ab/dis energy.. |
I think Whill has a valid point here: | Whill wrote: | | To protect verisimilitude with the films, telekinesis definitely cannot be used to stop one's own falling, no matter if it seems like it should. Even Sith and Jedi Masters do not seem to fall any slower than anyone else in the films, so telekinesis doesn't seem to do that. Enhance attribute can increase strength (which includes damage resistance), and reduce injury may be used. |
| Quote: | | Windu also died from falling!! |
He'd also just taken a Serious Wound (getting both arms chopped off) on top of being Force Lightning'd. It's reasonable to assume multiple penalties to his ability to survive a fall.
| Quote: | | If they can absorb kinetic energy, then they'd never need fear brawling damage, falls, firearms, grenades explosives etc.. Which to ME seems way too much. |
I think you need to reread the rules for Absorb/Dissipate. It's not a catch-all invulnerability, and per the RAW it can't be used as a reaction. As in, the character has to have a little time to prepare to use it.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Replying from here.
| garhkal wrote: | That windu jump from that box, was barely 20ft or so up. Not that difficult for someone with good strength.
Heck even at 30ft, that's barely 2d falling damage based on the fact, that in SW, falling damage is in meters.. |
That's not 20-30 ft. He fell for atleast two seconds, which if he was free-falling puts him about 20 meters up, or about 60-70ft. On top of that, he lands on his feet without performing a roll and only stops long enough to take off his robe before charging straight into battle.
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