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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Same reason colonized peoples could get the hang of rifles in a jiffy. It doesn't exactly take an Einstein. Using a gun is strictly empirical knowledge. It takes practice, but if you already use projectile weapons it doesn't require a major intellectual revolution like say, comprehension of finance & insurance when you don't know what money is. |
Right. If someone were to implement this rule, I'd suggest doing a tier system as to what skills will be harder to pick up (represented by CP costs). Most firearms and blasters are going to be relatively low cost, but complex things like Business or Capital Ship Piloting should take more time and energy.
Also worth mentioning is the Know-How skill from D6 Space, which allows characters to attempt tasks they don't have experience in purely through observation.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'd say instead go with a list of skills that Primitive Cultures can't use without spending CP to improve a skill first. However, I'd want to do it in a way that incorporates the character's natural aptitudes (Attributes) to represent how quickly the pick up the information. Say, a flat cost of 10 CP, minus the character's number of dice in an Attribute. Suppose there are two characters, each from the same primitive culture, but one has a Mech of 2D, and the other 4D. Neither can pilot a speeder without putting Dice in it, but one (the one with 4D) only has to spend 6 CP to learn, as opposed to the other's 8 CP. |
If they are so primitive, why could they have a blaster skill though? |
Same reason colonized peoples could get the hang of rifles in a jiffy. It doesn't exactly take an Einstein. Using a gun is strictly empirical knowledge. It takes practice, but if you already use projectile weapons it doesn't require a major intellectual revolution like say, comprehension of finance & insurance when you don't know what money is. |
Right. If someone were to implement this rule, I'd suggest doing a tier system as to what skills will be harder to pick up (represented by CP costs). Most firearms and blasters are going to be relatively low cost, but complex things like Business or Capital Ship Piloting should take more time and energy. |
I agree it would be much easier for a primitive person to pick up blaster skills than technical skills, but this is going off the rails. NPCs don't need character advancement rules because there are no balancing factors. They can be as skilled or unskilled as needed and their stats are merely poofed into existence at the time they are created. If an NPC is a reoccurring one and the GM feels their skills should grow over time to reflect experience gained, the GM just decides how the skills increase without advancement rules because NPCs do not earn CPs like PCs do. WEG has many examples of film characters whose stats change in this way, by pure author handwave. A sensible GM will run primitive NPCs according to abilities they should and shouldn't have, regardless of game stats. To try to address all points of this discussion...
(1) Unskilled attribute defaulting is inherent in the game system.
(2) Because of this, it is not actually possible in RAW to play a truly primitive PC.
One way to address it is to have a list of skills the primitive PC can't even try, but this would seriously nerf primitive PCs. Having a list of skills that cost more CPs to learn is even worse. This spits in the face of game balance.
Another way to address this is to house rule unskilled rules where skills either can't be used at all by any characters if not improved, which is radically different than RAW, but would allow a primitive character that is severely skill limited but a game balanced PC (likely pretty uber in primitive skills). This would be awful for non-primitive characters.
Another way to address it would be to have an unskilled penalty for all characters. This is a step in direction of realism for primitive PCs, but still really wouldn't be enough so you could still have characters near-defaulting in skills they shouldn't really have a clue in.
Another way to address it is to not allow truly primitive PCs. Sure, being primitive can still be a part of the PC's background, but at the start of play, the character has been around the galaxy enough to be minimally acclimated to it.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Also worth mentioning is the Know-How skill from D6 Space, which allows characters to attempt tasks they don't have experience in purely through observation. |
I fold the basic concept of the know-how skill into the base attribute of Perception.
To address any characters attempting to do complex actions unskilled where they shouldn't be able to straight default to attribute, D6 Space has an untrained rule that adds a situational penalty to difficulty numbers. I apply this but even to skilled rolls where unfamiliarity may provide a temporary penalty, like a character with piloting skill but the flying a new type of ship unlike anything they've flown before. It is a temporary factor.
I've called for perception rolls if the character has a chance to observe a task before doing it, and the degree of success may determine how quickly the unfamiliarity penalty end.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:34 am Post subject: |
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To extent it's also about immersion in the Star Wars universe. Hi and low technology exist alongside each other and "primitives" like Ewoks or Sand People are pretty common in the movies.
I just feel like it's unnecessarily complicating a ruleset whose main selling point (to me) is simplicity. I'd rather just leave it up to the GM to call higher difficulty numbers for primitives.
My two neighbors have never played an RPG before and I am think Star Wars D6 is still the best starter ruleset for players. Though I actually think it's kinda harder to be a GM for, cause the simplicity of "orc and pie" adventures don't exist. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | To extent it's also about immersion in the Star Wars universe. Hi and low technology exist alongside each other and "primitives" like Ewoks or Sand People are pretty common in the movies. |
The issue here is not the existence of high and low tech existing side by side in the universe the game is set in. The issue is specifically PCs being primitive characters. In RAW according to game mechanics, truly primitive PCs effectively do no exist, so the fluff that says it does is lying.
I don't think I've ever fully statted out Sand People (with attribute ranges, etc.). They aren't a default PC species, but if I ever had a player that had a cool concept for playing one, I'd develop that with them. They seem more archaic than primitive to me. They might have KNO and TEC ranges with the low ends in the 0D range, but I would probably have those max attributes a bit above 2D if I had a player that wanted to play one. But sure, a PC would be a more galactic acclimated member of their species than the typical, but that is true of a lot of PCs in the game.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | I just feel like it's unnecessarily complicating a ruleset whose main selling point (to me) is simplicity. |
I completely agree. The game's simplicity in design has attribute default, 2D as a galactic average ability, and very easy tasks (the lowest difficulty) include the use of galactic technologies. Look at very easy technical tasks, like Computer Programming/Repair. It is hard to imagine primitive characters doing that outside of a comedy game, like in those old Gieco caveman commercials. The simplicity in game system assumes galactic acclimation of characters because most in the galaxy are. Primitive NPCs are easy because the GM just won't have them do things that by game mechanics they could actually accomplish. The problem only really comes in with PCs who are not controlled by the GM. The easiest way to not complicate the ruleset with primitive PC rules is to not have truly primitive PCs. My ruleset is not complicated by primitive PC character rules at all.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | rather just leave it up to the GM to call higher difficulty numbers for primitives. |
Higher difficulty numbers does two things. First, it allows a truly primitive character to try things they really shouldn't be able to do at all (like do a very easy google search). Secondly, higher difficulty numbers for everything that truly should be more difficult for primitive characters severely nerfs the character compared to other PCs. If the GM and player are both ok with that, then that might work. Even if I had a player who was ok with that (I haven't yet), I probably wouldn't be ok with it. But maybe you are.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | My two neighbors have never played an RPG before and I am think Star Wars D6 is still the best starter ruleset for players. |
I completely agree. Do they want to specifically play truly primitive characters?
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Though I actually think it's kinda harder to be a GM for, cause the simplicity of "orc and pie" adventures don't exist. |
I completely disagree. Orc and Pie is parody of a trope in RPGs. Star Wars D6 is no exception to having these kinds of simple adventures, but it probably won't be actual orcs and actual pies in Star Wars. But even if it was, it still works without the PCs being primitive characters.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | To extent it's also about immersion in the Star Wars universe. Hi and low technology exist alongside each other and "primitives" like Ewoks or Sand People are pretty common in the movies. |
Sure, but they are very much the exception to the rule when it comes to PCs. A primitive PC is rare enough to be noteworthy and require special rules to set them apart. Having an appropriately balanced Story Factor that limits Primitive characters in some situations while giving them an advantage in others is appropriate.
| Quote: | I just feel like it's unnecessarily complicating a ruleset whose main selling point (to me) is simplicity. I'd rather just leave it up to the GM to call higher difficulty numbers for primitives.
My two neighbors have never played an RPG before and I am think Star Wars D6 is still the best starter ruleset for players. Though I actually think it's kinda harder to be a GM for, cause the simplicity of "orc and pie" adventures don't exist. |
IMO, the ideal RPG ruleset consists of a simple, easy-to-use set of core rules, to which a limitless number of official or house rules can be tacked on to achieve the exact level of crunch your particular group prefers. This can then be dialed up or down as needed. In that sense, Star Wars does a better job than most.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: | | To extent it's also about immersion in the Star Wars universe. Hi and low technology exist alongside each other and "primitives" like Ewoks or Sand People are pretty common in the movies. |
Sure, but they are very much the exception to the rule when it comes to PCs. A primitive PC is rare enough to be noteworthy and require special rules to set them apart. Having an appropriately balanced Story Factor that limits Primitive characters in some situations while giving them an advantage in others is appropriate. |
And for it really to be a 'primitive society', it shouldn't really have much if anything, of future tech on the planet.. IE a Dark ages era earth like planet, recently found by the empire, but who, due to lack of ANYTHING (other than people) to "mine", they decided to just leave be.. The rebels find out about it due to hacking the 'scouting report', but what do THEY Do with that planet?? Yea sure, they may be able to find out of the way areas to hide a base in, but then it leads to big issues with 'What to do if/when the locals find out you are there!'
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | And for it really to be a 'primitive society', it shouldn't really have much if anything, of future tech on the planet.. |
In the interests of creating a uniform system, I'd say that any rule would need to conform to the Tech Levels delineated in the Planet Generation system found in GG8 and the Planet Collection, with increased restrictions on what skills a PC can access as the Tech Level decreases.
| Quote: | | IE a Dark ages era earth like planet, recently found by the empire, but who, due to lack of ANYTHING (other than people) to "mine", they decided to just leave be.. The rebels find out about it due to hacking the 'scouting report', but what do THEY Do with that planet?? Yea sure, they may be able to find out of the way areas to hide a base in, but then it leads to big issues with 'What to do if/when the locals find out you are there!' |
That's outside the scope of this conversation. We're focusing on PCs here. If a society comprised entirely of NPCs on a primitive world wouldn't be able to make use of a skill, then it's simply a matter of GM fiat to make a declaration to that effect.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Side Note: based on the odds of the Tech Level Random Table, here's the odds and approximate percentages of the occurrence of each step:Stone = 1/36 (2.8%)
Feudal = 2/36 (5.6%)
Industrial = 3/36 (8.3%)
Atomic = 4/36 (11.1%)
Information = 11/36 (30.6%)
Space = 15/36 (41.7%)
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I have recently come into a VERY large lot of spare West End SW minis off eBay. The temptation to convert one of the ewoks into a demolitions specialist is pretty bad. I'll name it Whillgray. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: | | I have recently come into a VERY large lot of spare West End SW minis off eBay. The temptation to convert one of the ewoks into a demolitions specialist is pretty bad. I'll name it Whillgray. |
I gotta see that! |
I think I'll start with the Ewok from Rebel Characters and replace his medicine bag with a satchel bomb. Not sure what to do about his hands. |
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RyanDarkstar
Commander
Joined: 04 Dec 2014
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| Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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There are some excellent YouTubers who modify miniatures, but here are a few ideas:
Some Green Stuff (aka Kneadatite) and pieces of bread clips would turn the staff into a nice gaffi stick.
Or trimming off the spikes and gluing on the upper corner of a bread clip would make an axe head. Add small beads and wire to make it a vibroaxe.
Or, with some trimming and bits/Green Stuff, you could change the staff into a blaster rifle/carbine. The Ewok would just be gripping the stock/butt at the bottom.
Or you could remove the staff altogether and glue on any weapon in the space, if you have extra that is.
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Whill
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | It's an Ewok demolitions expert, so he should be holding an explosive of some kind. |
Ideally I'd make him have a Looney Tunes style plunger detonator. But that's unlikely  |
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