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Anti-Ion Hardening
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:46 pm    Post subject: Anti-Ion Hardening Reply with quote

So, shielding against electromagnetic fields has been a thing for nearly 200 years (the Faraday cage was first invented in 1836). Any thoughts on applying this to devices to protect against ion weaponry?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say the big thing would be mass and redundancies.

Mass, of course, somewhat comes in the Hull Rating (and scale modifier)... a big ship can absorb and dissipate a lot more energy. If they've got some sort of energy sinks (filling capacitators, probably), that would also buffer an ion surge.

For the rest? I imagine hardening comes from redundancies... while the ship usually uses AB, CD is a viable secondary route.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the thing, though. A Faraday Cage allows for electromagnetic energy (which is essentially what an ion blast is) to be redirected around whatever is contained within it. It's not just mass and redundancy; it's physically possible, with the tech we have today, to protect electronics from this effect.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mybe in SW, ion energy, is not the same as EMP like energy... So they can't shield against it.?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
That's the thing, though. A Faraday Cage allows for electromagnetic energy (which is essentially what an ion blast is) to be redirected around whatever is contained within it. It's not just mass and redundancy; it's physically possible, with the tech we have today, to protect electronics from this effect.


Sure, to an extent. But what happens when you need to connect outside the cage? I might be able to keep some systems inside the cage, but those systems need power. Ok, then, I put the power in with the system. But, wait, I have to be able to access those systems. Ok, the access is inside the cage, too. But now the systems need to connect to other systems.

The only way you can avoid this is to turn your entire ship into a Faraday cage... but then you need a Faraday cage that can survive turbolaser hits, AND some way to send and receive comms and sensor signals.

You MIGHT see something like this in Heir to Empire, where Thrawn's ships had "blank spaces" in the sensors for the mole miners... sensor systems can't get in, meaning you can't read what the ships are carrying, even though the ships, themselves, are visible on scanners.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Tech
As someone who has actually worked with them - (I used to work as an electronics tech and radio signals - we had to shield an entire building against very low power interference) they are usually designed around specific applications.

Now, I would say - and maybe this is not the best answer;

I have found, with most tech in sci-fi and gaming - to not try and define it in too much detail - as things get complicated and a ton of real world "what if" scenarios pop up (kind of like the old days of infravision in dnd).

I would just say if you want something like that - it just works.


Ion Weapons in Star Wars
Space combat in general, and Ion weapons in particular have been around a long time, and are really really dangerous.

if there was a way to easily protect against them - it would have been done in the last several thousand years and every ship would have them.

But since ion weapons do work, clearly this was not easily done.

Note - I said "easily".

The reason could just be cost - or other harmful side effects to explain why they are not prevalent.


Potential Solutions
In one of my games years ago (either a d6 or d20....don't recall, been like 15 years) we came up with "ion dampeners".
Basically, these were devices that could be installed on a ship - and could absorb so much ion damage before overloading. (like - ion shields).

The crew would have to "turn them off" before they absorbed too much, or they would explode. I made them heavy any expensive, so they would not be widely used.

It was something like 10 tons per D of ion damage absorbed or something like that .... but you get the idea. Then had even more advanced versions where they could draw power from them later, etc. etc. etc.

This enabled the tinker'ers, outlaw techs and smugglers and folks who did not mind crazy or experimental devices to have them, but gave a reason why they were not standard issue on military ships and droids.

(too risky, too much maintenance, etc.).

Anyway - more importantly than the science behind the tech - is why they are not in common use. But I think that is a great way to balance them out.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HOw much did they explode for?
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pakman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
HOw much did they explode for?


I don't recall. I think it was for either how much they had absorbed, or how much they had absorbed over the limit.

My apologies for not having more details - but regardless of the tech for the mechanism - I think that MC's idea is a valid one - there should be some type of better defense against ion attacks.

The key is - it need to not be too powerful, or too easy - again, otherwise ion weapons would be useless.

Here is a very simple version: Basically, shields in a 360 degree arc vs. ion weapons. (note: I just whipped this up between work meetings, so it has not been very deeply thought out).

Ion Dampeners
Large capacitor like devices with connections to the ships hull designed to reduce the affects of ion weapons against ships.

They come in ratings similar to shields (1D, 2D) etc.
When a ship is attacked with an ion weapon, add the Ion Dampener array die code to the ships hull to resist.

Any shields blown as a result of the attack, damages and reduces the array.
For each Controls Ionized result above the array's current value - there is a chance they will overload and explode.

The mechanics check is damage of the attack which got past the dampener.

The cost is 2000 credits, and 2tons per scale die code of the device x the rating.

So, 1D worth of Ion Dampeners on a starfighter would be;

1D x 2000 x 6D(scale code) = 12,000 credits, and 12 tons.

(again, this needs adjustment - but this keeps it very simple).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea I was leaning toward for starships is Static Discharge Vanes, which are mentioned in The Far Orbit Project (pg. 28) but only get a basic description:
    These vanes are used to bleed off any dangerous energy build-ups in the engines. They are not necessary for daily operation, only under certain conditions, such as combat or ion storms*. If somehow lost, the engines might wind up building dangerous amounts of energy, causing a reactor melt-down (assuming the fuel system doesn't explode first).

    *emphasis mine.
The Static Discharge Vanes pair with an optional rule (Shielding In Combat) on pg. 31 that reads as follows:
    If Shield Dice are lost due to a Shields Blown result on the Starship Damage Table, the shields may overload; the shield operators in the deflector module must compensate or risk further damage. Roll 1D per shield lost to determine how difficult it is to shunt the shield overload into the static power buffer (the attempt uses the Capital Ship Shields skill).

    If successful, the energy is transferred to the static buffer and discharged, resulting in nothing more serious than ionization of controls (unless the discharge vanes have been destroyed, in which case engineering has a problem). The Controls Ionized result is serious but recoverable.

    If unsuccessful, or if the discharge vanes are not operational, the shields overload; roll the number of shield dice lost against the ship's hull dice. The result is taken as normal damage as the energy shoots through the connected systems. If a critical failure occurs (a 1 on the Wild Die) or if the starship damage table result indicates Shields Lost, the shield module itself explodes.
The way I see it, the big obstacle to ionization hardening is what to do with the excess. Something that's in contact with the ground has a simple solution because the electromagnetic effect will do just that: ground. In space, it gets a lot stickier; it's in a vacuum, so there's nowhere for the ionization to go.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Maybe in SW, ion energy, is not the same as EMP like energy... So they can't shield against it.?

Only if physics is completely different. The more I dig into it, the more interlinked EMP and ionization become. If I'm reading it right, a real world EMP weapon (the orbital-detonated electrical grid-killing nightmare scenario kind) starts as ionization that converts to electromagnetic energy when it impacts on the atmosphere.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
But what happens when you need to connect outside the cage? I might be able to keep some systems inside the cage, but those systems need power. Ok, then, I put the power in with the system. But, wait, I have to be able to access those systems. Ok, the access is inside the cage, too. But now the systems need to connect to other systems.

Unless the system is self-contained with its own portable power supply, which would be the case for hand-held items like lightsabers, or wearable systems like body armor. And such systems would have the added bonus of being able to ground out any electrical fields and the like by virtue of being in contact with the ground.

Quote:
The only way you can avoid this is to turn your entire ship into a Faraday cage... but then you need a Faraday cage that can survive turbolaser hits, AND some way to send and receive comms and sensor signals.

Well, if you're taking turbolaser hits, you've got plenty of other problems, beside. And like pakman was saying, this stuff is usually designed around specific applications, so you tune it specifically to counter ionization effects, while still leaving windows for sensors and comms to work.

Quote:
You MIGHT see something like this in Heir to Empire, where Thrawn's ships had "blank spaces" in the sensors for the mole miners... sensor systems can't get in, meaning you can't read what the ships are carrying, even though the ships, themselves, are visible on scanners.

That was a cloaking device, but mounted internally. It bends electromagnetic energy around the field, but ion particles should still be able to pass straight through.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The way I see it, the big obstacle to ionization hardening is what to do with the excess. Something that's in contact with the ground has a simple solution because the electromagnetic effect will do just that: ground. In space, it gets a lot stickier; it's in a vacuum, so there's nowhere for the ionization to go.


I agree with you on that one MC.
That is why I made mine giant energy storage devices (capacitors) - hence, why they explode if they don't get turned off when they are full.

You could add heat sinks and all sorts of other stuff, or even - if they were super high tech - they could bleed into general ships power for us in shields, weapons etc. But that feels getting a bit too powerful.

(I can neither confirm nor deny, that someone resembling pak, may have got into trouble in his vocational electronics class in high school for intentionally overloading capacitors just to see if they would explode..... ).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
That is why I made mine giant energy storage devices (capacitors) - hence, why they explode if they don't get turned off when they are full.

You could add heat sinks and all sorts of other stuff, or even - if they were super high tech - they could bleed into general ships power for us in shields, weapons etc. But that feels getting a bit too powerful.

It gets even more complicated in that, according to the lore, standard heat sink / radiators are blocked by shields, so ships that run with shields have to use neutrino radiators. Something I stumbled across from Elite: Dangerous as a piece of add-on equipment was an ejectable heat-sink, used when a ship wanted to stealth up fast. Want to immediately get rid of your ship's heat signature, either for stealth or safety reasons? Just eject the heat sink. Of course, that's only a trick that can be used so many times. Still, something similar might be usable for anti-ionization. Call it an Ejectable Static Buffer or something; feed all the ionization charge into the Buffer and dump it overboard.

Quote:
(I can neither confirm nor deny, that someone resembling pak, may have got into trouble in his vocational electronics class in high school for intentionally overloading capacitors just to see if they would explode..... ).

And I, in turn, will never confirm how I know that thermite can burn all the way through a concrete driveway.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Maybe in SW, ion energy, is not the same as EMP like energy... So they can't shield against it.?

Only if physics is completely different. The more I dig into it, the more interlinked EMP and ionization become. If I'm reading it right, a real world EMP weapon (the orbital-detonated electrical grid-killing nightmare scenario kind) starts as ionization that converts to electromagnetic energy when it impacts on the atmosphere.


I forget if it was the 2nd of the X-wing novels, or the first of the Wraith squadron novels, bu they had those "Emp-ion mines', which were NOT the same as an ion mine itself.. they fried electronics... So based on that it does seem that for SW purposes, EMP and ion are not related...

CRMcNeill wrote:

Quote:
(I can neither confirm nor deny, that someone resembling pak, may have got into trouble in his vocational electronics class in high school for intentionally overloading capacitors just to see if they would explode..... ).

And I, in turn, will never confirm how I know that thermite can burn all the way through a concrete driveway.


And i can neither confirm or deny, that during Electronics technician A school, some of us students, did similar. Charge up some smaller capacitors, and threw them hard into walls, to watch them go boom...
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
But what happens when you need to connect outside the cage? I might be able to keep some systems inside the cage, but those systems need power. Ok, then, I put the power in with the system. But, wait, I have to be able to access those systems. Ok, the access is inside the cage, too. But now the systems need to connect to other systems.

Unless the system is self-contained with its own portable power supply, which would be the case for hand-held items like lightsabers, or wearable systems like body armor. And such systems would have the added bonus of being able to ground out any electrical fields and the like by virtue of being in contact with the ground.


I mentioned self-contained systems, but was mostly thinking in terms of ships, not smaller devices.

Quote:
Quote:
The only way you can avoid this is to turn your entire ship into a Faraday cage... but then you need a Faraday cage that can survive turbolaser hits, AND some way to send and receive comms and sensor signals.

Well, if you're taking turbolaser hits, you've got plenty of other problems, beside. And like pakman was saying, this stuff is usually designed around specific applications, so you tune it specifically to counter ionization effects, while still leaving windows for sensors and comms to work.


Sure, you've got other problems, but your shields will mitigate damage from that turbolaser, while they won't do anything against an ion cannon.

Quote:

Quote:
You MIGHT see something like this in Heir to Empire, where Thrawn's ships had "blank spaces" in the sensors for the mole miners... sensor systems can't get in, meaning you can't read what the ships are carrying, even though the ships, themselves, are visible on scanners.

That was a cloaking device, but mounted internally. It bends electromagnetic energy around the field, but ion particles should still be able to pass straight through.
[/quote]

Yeah, but if you've tuned your faraday cage to sensors and comms, how does that wind up too different from the cloaking field and the blank space?
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