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ThrorII
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 12 Jul 2019
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 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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1e user here. I'm a fan of combining Melee attack and Melee parry in to one skill, and Brawling attack and Brawling parry in to one. I can't imagine a case where "I have 7D in brawling attack, but only 2D in brawling parry". Combat training is a mix of learning offense and defense.
I am not a fan of combining melee and brawling. One is Strength based and one is Dex based. They are different applications of 'close combat damage'.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: |
Other Factors
Also - it is important to have brawling as its own skill - why?
Because otherwise - it is too easy to be good at both parrying when you have a weapon, and when you don't. I feel this is important.
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That is one of the other big IMO reasons, NOT to combine so many skills..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Combining skills |
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| Whill wrote: | | Well, combining melee attack and defense into the same skill eliminates the problem with Dueling Blades only using a single roll. Just saying. |
It certainly does, but it starts to break down when you want to add more variety to different combat forms. I ran into this when making my Dueling Sabers rules, in that combining attack and defense into a single skill makes it much harder to represent a form that prioritizes one over the other, such as Form III Soresu, or an unarmed form like Aikido (which historically began as a way for unarmed samurai to defend against armed attackers).
My thinking at the moment is to allow two opposed attack vs defense rolls, one for each side, and then compare the degrees of success on the Dueling Blades chart (or some variation on it). So, if A's Defense roll beats B's Attack roll by 5 points, while B's Defense only beats A's Attack by 3 points, A would 'win' the round by 2 points, which would then be applied to the Dueling Blades chart for a positioning result.
Obviously, if one side loses their Defense action, they take Damage and skip the Dueling Blades chart entirely.
| Quote: | | That being said, I'm mainly only interested in using Dueling Blades for lightsaber duels (strictly lightsaber vs lightsaber). Other melees (lightsaber v non-lightsaber, both non-lightsaber melee weapons, unarmed brawling, etc.) never last long and I never really want them to, so I'm good with using RAW as I have tweaked it for those. |
It's a fair point, but I think a universal combat system will make it a lot easier to game out asymmetrical or non-standard combat pairings, like a blind guy with a stick against a dozen effectively unarmed stormtroopers.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | | As someone with experience in both hand to hand, and melee weapon (martial arts, some boxing, actual strip fencing, historical combat, and stuntwork/stage combat) I feel while there are similarities - (foot work, reading an opponent, balance, etc.) but they are very different (forms, movement, reach, parrying methods, blocking, blade control etc.). |
I agree, but we have other skills that cover a pretty broad range of skill sets.
What I'm leaning toward is a compromise on realism in favor of playability and the "cinematic feel", in that tabletop combat needs to be fun and fast-paced, and that streamlining the rules and skills used is of great benefit in that. Look at the Chirrut Imwe fight scene in Rogue One, for example. He's very clearly wielding a Melee Weapon, but also mixing in Brawling Attacks, and doing so pretty seamlessly. Plenty of lightsaber fights also feature Brawling attacks or grapples made at opportune moments.
I recognize that there are notable differences between armed and unarmed combat; my point is more that close combat as presented on screen blurs the line between the two, and that in order to best simulate on-screen combat in the game, the line between Melee and Brawling should similarly be blurred.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | While yes, there are Martial Arts forms that specifically train in the use of weapons, This would be an aspect of game mechanics not in D6 or Star Wars. Those Martial Arts that are solely for weapons combat I would point out would still be the Melee skill by another name. I would also point out that the RAW core rules have no Martial Arts skill at all - this was generally handled by Brawling or by house rules (or by the rules in supplement book). |
At the moment, my plan is to make Martial Arts into an Advanced Skill, with the various Attack and Defense skills as prerequisites depending on the specifics of the particular form. A purely unarmed combat form, for example, would have Brawling and Brawling Parry as prerequisites, while a broader, weapon-oriented form would add Melee Combat and Melee Parry (assuming they haven't been combined into other skills) to the mix.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | Also - it is important to have brawling as its own skill - why?
Because otherwise - it is too easy to be good at both parrying when you have a weapon, and when you don't. I feel this is important. |
However, the RAW already allows for a degree of overlap between Melee Parry and Brawling Parry, in that they can both be used to defend against either Melee Combat or Brawling, subject to modifiers (as I noted when I wrote up my Defense skill that combines the two).
| Quote: | | Finally - what is the value proposition of the change? |
To better represent combat as seen on screen, where armed and unarmed combat are intermixed, and to do so in a streamlined fashion as part of a more universal close combat system that covers as many of the "bases" as possible.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ThrorII wrote: | 1e user here. I'm a fan of combining Melee attack and Melee parry in to one skill, and Brawling attack and Brawling parry in to one. I can't imagine a case where "I have 7D in brawling attack, but only 2D in brawling parry". Combat training is a mix of learning offense and defense.
I am not a fan of combining melee and brawling. One is Strength based and one is Dex based. They are different applications of 'close combat damage'. |
I moved Brawling to Dexterity a long time ago. Damage is still dependent on Strength, but to my way of thinking, it doesn't matter how strong you are if you lack the reflexes and coordination to hit something that doesn't want to be hit.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Darklighter79
Captain
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 529
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | Darklighter79 wrote: |
Call of Cthulhu on the other hand:
1) Each ranged weapon has a different skill.
2) Unarmed attacks divided into separate skills: fist, kick, head, grapple. |
There is a Cthulhu D6 version? Could you point me to it? |
No. Sorry I did not mentioned that. Just wanted to point out this unlikely situation: one the one hand a cloak-and-dagger setting where dueling is common. Yet, here we have a few combat skills.
On the other hand we have a horror setting focused on investigation and mystery. Combat is the last resort here and if it occurs, it usually ends bad for players as their chances against monsters are...slim at the best. Quite a lot of combat skills.
But then we also have a classic: Warhammer Fantasy - basic two combat skills: ranged and melee.
In my SW I use Brawling, Melee in DEX for both attack and defense, just like Lightsaber is used.
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | pakman wrote: | Also - it is important to have brawling as its own skill - why?
Finally - what is the value proposition of the change? |
To better represent combat as seen on screen, where armed and unarmed combat are intermixed, and to do so in a streamlined fashion as part of a more universal close combat system that covers as many of the "bases" as possible. |
Well, with all due respect - it is often impossible to model everything we see on screen - as it is often a highly intertangled mix of so many things (camera work, multiple angles, special effects, choregraphed moves etc.).
There has to be some form of abstraction -
Now, this is a admirable goal - and honestly, as lot of that I would either handle a few ways with existing rules;
1 - Actions
Player: "my first action is to attack with my vibro blade"
GM: "roll melee combat"
then later
Player: - "my second action is to punch him!".
GM: "roll brawling".
Done.
2 - Narratively.
Player: My first action is to use my virbo blade.
GM: Roll melee combat, your difficulty is 23..
Player: Ok (grabs pile of dice) - I got a 30!
Now roll damage - (a bit of dice later) he is incapacitated
GM: "After diving into the fray with the purge trooper, you swing your vibro blade in an unexpected arc and catch him off guard staggering him a bit. Closing in on this opportunity, you step within his guard, and deliver a quick elbow to under the helmet - he falls backwards - unconscious!"
Players : "Dude, awesome!!!".
Don't get me wrong - I think players should always be able to do "cool" things - just we don't need a rule always for every cool thing.
Martial Arts methods
Or... just use the martial arts.
Let them use any of them as follow up moves to a successful melee attack.
Or heck, that is just the second action.
I am adding two new techniques;
Weapon Kata - lets do extra damage with a melee weapon, represents mixing martial arts and melee - (similar to elbow smash).
Gun Fu - lets mix martial arts and very close range shooting with a pistol - (still working on mechanics on this one - trying to keep simple).
The gun fu is inspired because most of the players love the jon wick series, and like the idea of some highly skilled guy doing that with a DL44....
So....
For my game, I like the segregation of skills - it also allows for more character differentiation (I have five players in my group....).
We will just use a combo of existing skills, narrative descriptions and for the highly skilled, martial arts techniques mixed with melee.
Now, I know your game is a lot more detailed than some- which is a good thing - after all - your detailed and well thought out insights are very useful for the rest of us in our house rules considerations. 
If this works for your game and players - sounds good.
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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My main issue with breaking up melee and brawling is that logically you defend and attack.
I learned some basic HEMA swordfighting and I leared both and used both in the fight.
So to me Melee Combat and Melee parry is the same skill, and this goes to Brawling and Brawling Parry.
Boxers do Parry, is why they have the guard etc.
to keep things simple I would keep Brawling under Strength, even though imo a high strength has little to with the chance to hit, I see chance to hit to be more related to mobility, but to keep things imple I would keep Brawling (combined Bralwing and Brawling Parry) under Strength and Melee Combat (combined Melee Parry) kept under Dex mostly for the weapon aspects.
We can still I suppose argue that with the presence of Brawling Weapons, uisng the brawling skill, but technically no longer unarmed, we do cross into melee territory, but I still feel that brawling and melee should both be combined with the respective Parry Skills, but kept as 2 skills Brawling and Melee (Combat) |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | | Well, with all due respect - it is often impossible to model everything we see on screen - as it is often a highly intertangled mix of so many things (camera work, multiple angles, special effects, choregraphed moves etc.). |
This is true, and I'm not expecting to perfectly model everything we see on screen. What I would like is something that better approximates the feel of it.
| Quote: | GM: "After diving into the fray with the purge trooper, you swing your vibro blade in an unexpected arc and catch him off guard staggering him a bit. Closing in on this opportunity, you step within his guard, and deliver a quick elbow to under the helmet - he falls backwards - unconscious!"
Players : "Dude, awesome!!!".[/i] |
My main weakness as a GM is not being able to think on the fly like this. A lot of the rules I post are thought up as abstracts, in the sense of "well, what happens if...?", so that if such circumstances do occur at the table, I've got something on deck and ready to go. My ideal rule for any situation is a solid framework that provides a lot of specifics as to what might happen, then let the dice roll where they may, so I don't have to make something up on the spot.
| Quote: | | Let them use any of them as follow up moves to a successful melee attack. |
I'm currently leaning in the direction of the Trick option on the Dueling Blades chart, allowing the character to insert a Brawling Attack as part of a saber duel. Of course, this would require restructuring the list to put tricks before the Wound result. I haven't quite figured out how I want to work it, though.
Or heck, that is just the second action.
| Quote: | I am adding two new techniques;
Weapon Kata - lets do extra damage with a melee weapon, represents mixing martial arts and melee - (similar to elbow smash). |
I'm currently waffling between the idea suggested in this thread and having Melee Combat and Brawling as separate skills under a Martial Arts Advanced Skill that allows them to work together.
| Quote: | Gun Fu - lets mix martial arts and very close range shooting with a pistol - (still working on mechanics on this one - trying to keep simple).
The gun fu is inspired because most of the players love the jon wick series, and like the idea of some highly skilled guy doing that with a DL44.... |
Have you seen Equilbirum? That's really where it got started, I think.
| Quote: | | For my game, I like the segregation of skills - it also allows for more character differentiation |
I agree, but the system is weakest at the edges of classification, where there's a clear overlap / synergy between what the rules designate as two separate things. Mixing melee and brawling is the most obvious example.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: | | So to me Melee Combat and Melee parry is the same skill, and this goes to Brawling and Brawling Parry. |
I have tried that route, but as I said above, going with a single unified skill makes it harder to represent a form placing more emphasis on one over the other, which is a factor when trying to make rules for the various lightsaber forms.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1829
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Mamatried wrote: | | So to me Melee Combat and Melee parry is the same skill, and this goes to Brawling and Brawling Parry. |
I have tried that route, but as I said above, going with a single unified skill makes it harder to represent a form placing more emphasis on one over the other, which is a factor when trying to make rules for the various lightsaber forms. |
I am not sure I agree. if we look to laightsaber combat, and not apply the force, we have Melee combat using a lightsaber and nothing more.
Once we add the force powers and begin to use the "force power" lightsaber combat we are really into the same realm as martial arts , with various techiniques that will influence the skill defense and ofense use.
but Lightsaber combat is a force power and a martila art, much more than mere melee with a lightsaber, as you have zero benefits of a lightbaer without the lightsaber combat force power.
and if we look to Rebels, Mandalorian and other scourses I can see the lightsaber being used as a melee weapon, and only when used by jedi/Sith we see the lightsaber combat techniques used.
so to me Lightsaber combat is not melee, it is a force power, but using a lightsaiber without the force to fight is melee |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Lightsaber Combat as a Force Power is broken and myopic on multiple levels. It runs afoul of the exact problem that led me to look into this in the first place: the inability to mix brawling combat into melee combat. Not to mention that the Force somehow stops aiding the Jedi in combat if he isn't touching a lightsaber...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Lightsaber Combat as a Force Power is broken and myopic on multiple levels. It runs afoul of the exact problem that led me to look into this in the first place: the inability to mix brawling combat into melee combat. Not to mention that the Force somehow stops aiding the Jedi in combat if he isn't touching a lightsaber... |
Don't disagree with this at all.....
Uh oh - tangent alert.....
In my game, my revised version is called "Force Combat".
It is tweaked quite a bit, but basically it is for Force users in any combat situation (not just jedi with light sabers).
it gives them a bonus in combat (sense gives a bonus to defensive actions, control gives a bonus to offensive actions - no, not damage).
Slightly more detailed than that, but I digress.
Back to Brawling...
Sounds like different ideas for different games - which is just fine.
I think as long as any solution is consistent with all the other house rules in a particular game - then it will be fine.
Other thoughts - and brawling and Melee in my game
One of the last reasons I keep them separate - is as Brawling and melee combat are gateways for some of my advanced skills.
Martial Arts - Advanced Skill
- requires specialization ; Brawling-Martial Arts 5d.
- this opens up the martial arts techniques.
Jedi Lightsaber forms - Advanced skill
- requires Specialization Melee combat- lightsaber at 5d.
- this opens up lightsaber forms techniques (different moves based on the forms).
I also have about 53 skills in my game (not including advanced skills) - narrowed down from the MANY in reup.
(my force powers are advanced skills as well - they are done, just need bit more editing - there are 10 advanced skills, with about 6-10 abilities in each - just like martial arts etc. yes, I will post them once they get a bit more editing).
So, I am going to keep mine separate but - every game is different - but I can say I have gained tremendous insights from the folks here.
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