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Deus Ex Machina
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:34 am    Post subject: Deus Ex Machina Reply with quote

This is where the gm/dm has some uber npc (or less powerful but more numerous npcs) show up to save the pcs butts.

Who here uses this?


To me, i hate it. Cause i feel.
1) if the npcs are that powerful/numerous and already in the area, why have they not already handled the situation?
2) why would they come in to save the day, unless they owed something to the party?
3) if they don’t even know the party, or the area is one in which it would be hard to justify someone else coming in to save the day, how can you just say there they are...
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Endwyn
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The times I saw this used most was when a GM had a "favorite PC" he used as a NPC. That NPC did this alot.
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beaumont sebos
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used this tactic a little bit. But the PCs had already developed long-term relationships with the NPCs and they were on the same side.
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Argamoth
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see it being used sometimes, but only occationaly. Can't let the PCs get lazy.

NPC may be busy dealing with a bigger situation, or the PCs just got there first. NPC may have other motives for the 'quest' to be completed. They could even be evil or shady NPCs.
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Tahlorn
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The times I saw this used most was when a GM had a "favorite PC" he used as a NPC. That NPC did this alot.


I had this happen too, was in a different system. Bugged the hell out of me, because he was flashing his PCs and NPCs. They would show up "just in the nick of time", but wasn't becuase we were unable to take care of the situation on our own and needed the help, but becasue the GM set it up so it was impossible for us, and his PC or NPC would quickly save the day. I was to the point of just making my character a walker, as it was obvious that the GMs characters could easily take care of the whole campaign on thier own. Then I realized that the gm's PC would come to my rescue, so I forced myself back into where I had been 'saved' from (huge demon that the gm's PC threw himself at so we could run away from it), didn't die because the GMPC was taking all the attention, and by the rules (D&D) I ended up getting more xp than everyone else.

I have rarely used my big NPCs in missions to help, and only if the PCs have earned thier respect, which does not come easily. Also, pretty much I allow each of the NPCs only ONE large "save the PCs" action per mission, and only if the PCs put themselves into something that they can't get out of (complete dire situation).

If the players do enough stuff on thier own, and get to a point where it is obvious that to get to the next step they are going to need a LOT of help, then using a group of NPCs or one/two uber-npcs seems fine. Just dont let them linger about, waiting in the shadows to help at the last moment. This makes the game no fun for the players, as they feel useless, and also take stupid actions, as they know they will be saved if they get into deep trouble.

~Tahlorn
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tahlorn wrote:

I have rarely used my big NPCs in missions to help, and only if the PCs have earned thier respect, which does not come easily. Also, pretty much I allow each of the NPCs only ONE large "save the PCs" action per mission, and only if the PCs put themselves into something that they can't get out of (complete dire situation).

If the players do enough stuff on thier own, and get to a point where it is obvious that to get to the next step they are going to need a LOT of help, then using a group of NPCs or one/two uber-npcs seems fine. Just dont let them linger about, waiting in the shadows to help at the last moment. This makes the game no fun for the players, as they feel useless, and also take stupid actions, as they know they will be saved if they get into deep trouble.

~Tahlorn


And that, to me, is a big part of it. IF the rebels let someo9ne else know where they were, or had back up waiting, when the fit hit the shan, then yes, i can see someone else coming in to save the day. BUT if they had not, i struggle to reason why some nameless npc (at the moment) would risk his or her (or its) neck for things it does not know, just to allow them a 'save'...
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roguesquad
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't use this NPC's to save the party. If I really needed to "save the party, that's just a bad way to do it. It shows the PC's they are not really needed, and someone else can do the job.

To get the same effect, but let the PC's feel they are the result, simply have the Enemy not have full hit points. No reason that the enemy couldn't have fully recovered from the last attack, or even simply be injured, or weaker than expected.

I have to say, the game is more important than any numbers.
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Sabre
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've used NPCs to save the party before, but they're never just a mysterious stranger from out of the blue. Either they have something important to add to the plot, or they're a character the PCs have been bringing along with them for a while, or they have some motive of their own for being where they are at that particular moment.

When the party does get saved, usually they've failed to achieve some particular objective and the NPC pulling what's left of them out of the fire doesn't change that failure. I'd *NEVER* have an NPC background character defeat an NPC villain. I'll even fudge die rolls to prevent this from happening accidentally in combat. True villains are an obstacle for the PCs to take down, NPC minor characters are only there to fill in the story.

I'd say equally often, I've had NPCs show up to complicate matters for the PCs in ways they weren't expecting, sort of reversing the scales. Another villain the PCs haven't encountered before shows up suddenly and saves the villain they're about to defeat (of course there's a reason for this and it doesn't happen on a whim), or they reach their objective after fighting their way through enemy territory only to find the person they were trying to rescue has already been kidnapped/killed by someone else they haven't heard of (there'll be clues to follow of course).

Anyway, I'd never use this trick without having something else in mind beforehand. It'd cheapen the game somehow.
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Boomer
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a player who is very anal about NPCs taking any action in his character's presence.
Train Robbery
They took down a Gammorean all by themselves, had him cornered, end of story. Than some NPC Twi'Lek hits the Gammorean with a stun baton, just because he could.... the player threw a little fit at me the next day. I tried explaining since the players had the Gamorean corned, with a gun to his head, stomach, and balls, that they had won and the stun baton did not change the situation one bit.

Later, in the next train car, trying to take down a pair of weequay, some passengers seeing the fight begin decide to take down the weequay themselves. Element o' Surprise+Big Numbers=Pinned Weequay.
Now the players have to fight, coerce, and threaten the passengers, who are ready to be an angry mob, so that they don't beat the weequay to death and throw them out the window on general principle.
Somehow this was the NPCs solving the situation... I dunno about you, but that is the NPCs making an even worse situation.

...I don't put a lot of stock in what this person has to say about anything.
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roguesquad
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think those examples were good Boomer. Sometimes NPC's really do act like a PC, as the PC's don't live in a vacuum. Things will indeed happen that they can't control.
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Argamoth
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like to have a semi-powerful NPC so follow the PCs around. Either because his boss said "go take care of them" or because the NPC likes make fun of their incompetence. It lets me have some fun PC to PC interaction occationaly. Or make fun of people.
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Boomer
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Argamoth just explained why Q was so popular in Star Trek. The all powerful a-hole who doesn't really do anything other than tag along.
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Jedi Skyler
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now there's a good description of Q! Laughing
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Argamoth
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He isn't around to help the PCs, he's there because of his own agenda. (In Q's case, because he felt like it.) It's fun to watch them laugh at a bunch of PCs that have gotten arrested by troopers.
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Volar the Healer
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In games where the PCs are part of a team, say the Rebellion, I use it quite a bit. But then they always get a chance to save their rescuers at some point also. This makes the Rebellion more "real". In our current campaign, where the PCs are a free trader on their own, they're...well...on their own.
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