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| How to force imperial troops to surrender? |
| Command |
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5% |
[ 1 ] |
| Con |
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20% |
[ 4 ] |
| Intimidate |
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30% |
[ 6 ] |
| Persuation |
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20% |
[ 4 ] |
| Blaster |
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25% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 20 |
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| Author |
Message |
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Agreed. I would have gone with con or intimidation. Though i can remember somewhere saying that stormies (not army troopers) are imune to certain skills...
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:08 am Post subject: |
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I seem to remember that as well... Bribery comes first to mind.
*waves hand* Republic credits will do fine... 8) |
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Volar the Healer
Jedi
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 664
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| Krapou wrote: | | Quote: | | One must remember that stormtroopers are not people. They are biological robots. |
Huh ?
Could you devellop your opinion ? |
Stormtroopers are not people. The best example I can think up off the top of my head is the one Skyler gives: The clone commander returns Obi-Wan's lightsaber to him, then 15 seconds later fires upon and kills Obi-Wan (or so he believes) because he receives orders to do so - no hesitation, no remorse, no humanity. He went from "When have I ever failed you?" to "Did you find the body?" instantly.
Or to put it another way, remember the clone master who said "They are completly obiedient, accepting any command. We've modified their genetic structure to make them that way." Completely obiedient - Does that describe any human being you know?
What is the difference between how the Trade Federation battle droids carry out their commands and how the Republic clones/stormtroopers carry out theirs? From a humanities standpoint, I don't see any. Hence my statement, stormtroopers are not people, since they appear to have no free will. They're biological robots carrying out their programming.
So, I suspect the only way to get them to surrender is to place them in a position where their programming/training tells them they should surrender. This is why I chose 'blaster' as the proper skill to convince stormtroopers to surrender.
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Or to put it another way, remember the clone master who said "They are completly obiedient, accepting any command. We've modified their genetic structure to make them that way." |
Here's the major difference: The clone troopers came genetically altered. They were hard-wired to accept certain orders without question, but were also made from a highly intelligent source. They HAD to be able to think for themselves to some degree to be able to adapt to mission parameters in the field. But at any moment, certain orders triggered genetically coded shifts that guaranteed specific results.
| Quote: | | What is the difference between how the Trade Federation battle droids carry out their commands and how the Republic clones/stormtroopers carry out theirs? From a humanities standpoint, I don't see any. Hence my statement, stormtroopers are not people, since they appear to have no free will. |
While the troopers do follow orders pretty precisely, the Trade Federation droids were controlled by a central transmission ship. Their orders were being constantly piped to them, so they were basically nothing more than a physical remote extension of the central command ship. Troopers, on the other hand, take advantage of the human factor. If communications are jammed, troopers still function; battle droids just fall over or stand there, motionless.
In Episode I Qui-Gon tried to bluster his way past the droids in the hangar, and was promptly informed he was under arrest. You could definitely bluster your way past stormtroopers, if your Con roll is good enough. You'd have to do better than Han on the Death Star, but it can be done. Hence the argument against them being "biological robots." |
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:03 am Post subject: |
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I believe some distinction has to be made here. Clonetroopers are not Stormtroopers. Stormies aren't clones in the Rebellion era, and so, though they are still heavily indocrinated and conditioned, there's a possibility that some individuals will take a bribe or even be persuaded to go renegade. I'd say a Clonetrooper's "genetical modifications" really make them quasi-droids, though they are certainly much more flexible.
And on a side note, Clone Wars battle droids were not centrally controlled anymore, they had independant motivators.
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Ah, yes. Point conceded to Gry about the droids. I'm having a brain cramp this morning, and was just thinking Episode I. 
As for this: | Quote: | | Clonetroopers are not Stormtroopers. Stormies aren't clones in the Rebellion era |
, that's the point I was making. Bribery may be possible, but friggin' hard. You'd almost have to have a Kyle Katarn or someone like him who'd just had a real eye-opening experience with some atrocity the Empire committed, and now they're having second thoughts about having enlisted in this great behemoth known as the Empire... which would then set them up for the options Gry mentioned. |
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Volar the Healer
Jedi
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 664
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Gry Sarth wrote: | | Clonetroopers are not Stormtroopers. |
What makes you say so? I saw nothing in the movies to support that.
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:45 am Post subject: |
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...and nothing in the movies to deny that as well. But it just makes plain sense. Why would the Empire spend money on cloning facilities when it has all the galaxy to draft into service for free? Plus, the EU supports the idea that Stormies are just regular folks indocrinated by the Empire, like the tale of Davin Felth and others...
Plus it seems to me that the CT stormies were much more "at ease" than PT Clonetroopers. "Have you heard about the new Pt-XX? I hear it's really something", sounds more human to me....
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Actually, the statement should have been: Stormtroopers (as seen in the original trilogy) are not clones. |
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Are there any stormtroopers in the Prequel Trilogy? I only ever saw Clonetroopers in those....
I went through the Official Site entry for stormtroopers, and here's what I found:
"Stormtroopers abandoned individuality in exchange for their loyalty."
To me that sounds very much like they are regular folk, not clones. Clones wouldn't "abandon" their individuality, since they never had it.
And why would Thrawn make all that fuss about Spaarti cloning tanks, if all stormtroopers were clones anyway?
And on the topic at hand, there's this little tidbit:
"Stormtroopers were totally loyal to the Empire and cannot be bribed, seduced or blackmailed."
Which I find a bit too much... but ok.....
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Volar the Healer
Jedi
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 664
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Gry Sarth wrote: | And on the topic at hand, there's this little tidbit:
"Stormtroopers were totally loyal to the Empire and cannot be bribed, seduced or blackmailed."
Which I find a bit too much... but ok..... |
THAT is part of what convinced me stromtroopers are clones. There could be some people among them, but there's no need for there to be any. Take a good look at the clonetrooper's helmets in Episode III and you'll find they're slowly changing into stormtrooper's.
I guess I understand where you're getting your ideas - mostly from the EU, but as for me; I always figured the movies are correct and the EU is rumours...what people in the Empire hear. The EU material may or may not be correct in my game. This resolves a lot of inconsistencies.
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:16 am Post subject: |
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I agree that where the movies and EU conflict, you should go with the movies. But I feel that in this issue, in the words of Vader: "There is no conflict." The movies never allude to the fact that Stormtroopers are clones, while the EU strongly reinforces the idea that they are just indocrinated people.
Just because someone is totally loyal, it doesn't mean they're clones, it just means that the Empire has a very good indocrination and propaganda system.
The info on the official site suggests Stormies aren't clones. And just because Ep3 Clonetroopers look more similar to Stormtroopers it surely doesn't mean stormies must be clones.
But I understand this is not a perfectly clear issue, so if you want stormies to be clones in your campaign, it is really easy to accept that as the truth. These gray areas is where we are each allowed to make up what is our very own Star Wars Universe.
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The movies never allude to the fact that Stormtroopers are clones, while the EU strongly reinforces the idea that they are just indocrinated people. |
Actually, the EU (especially the novels) come right out and say they weren't clones. There was a huge conscription program in place. In the Jedi Academy Trilogy, Kyp Durron's brother Zekk was at the Caridan Military Academy in the stormtrooper training program. Wasn't Kyle Katarn formerly a stormtrooper as well? And elsewhere it says that the Empire declared cloning illegal. (Couldn't have someone go and do to the Empire what the Empire did to the Old Republic and all...) So if you're using EU sources in addition to the movies, then there's ample reason to believe stormies are simply original humans.
On a side note, I love that we can have these discussions as actual discussions, not as flame wars! Thanks, all! |
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, this could so very easily turn into a flame war....
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Which is why I'm glad I'm discussing this stuff with you guys, rather than some lamoes somewhere else! 8) |
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