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pulphummock
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Joined: 04 Feb 2023
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 Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:04 am Post subject: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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Hello everyone,
I've been reading these forums for a long, long time (...a long time), but it was only recently that I decided to join the Rancor Pit. I gotta say: it's so exciting to see that there is still a large fan-base of all things D6 system! A big thank you to the moderators and site managers for keeping this thing going all this time.
My first post is a hypothetical question: assuming an alternate universe where West End Games still had the license to make the Star Wars RPG, what would a true 3rd edition of the game look like? What changes would you recommend to the 2nd edition Revised & Expanded in order to bring it up to speed to match modern game design principles and truly make it a "new edition"?
May the Force be with you!
PH
P.S. I have never seen this question directly asked before anywhere in the forums here, but if this has already come up and I missed it, my sincere apologies!
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Sutehp
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Joined: 01 Nov 2016
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Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:29 am Post subject: |
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Welcome to the Pit, pulphummock!
The closest thing I've seen to a "3rd Edition" of SWD6 would have to be the REUP, the Revised, Expanded and UPdated Corebook done by Womp Rat Press, available for download at the d6 Holocron website, made by fans for fans. It's Legends oriented, but it's still worthwhile.
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Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10296
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:08 am Post subject: Re: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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| pulphummock wrote: | | I've been reading these forums for a long, long time (...a long time), but it was only recently that I decided to join the Rancor Pit. I gotta say: it's so exciting to see that there is still a large fan-base of all things D6 system! A big thank you to the moderators and site managers for keeping this thing going all this time. |
Thank you and you're welcome!
| pulphummock wrote: | | My first post is a hypothetical question: assuming an alternate universe where West End Games still had the license to make the Star Wars RPG, what would a true 3rd edition of the game look like? |
Although D6 Space is often regarded as the unofficial 3e of Star Wars D6 system, I don't think that is necessarily what we would have gotten if WEG had retained the Star Wars game license. It probably wouldn't have been designed by Nikola Vrtis as WEG probably would have retained some of the prior WEG authors so it would be understandably different. It still might have had an in-depth ADSA system, but maybe not.
It's hard to speculate on the what if, but I think it is safe to say that a WEG 3rd edition would have come out in the 1999-2005 time frame, probably closer to earlier in that timeframe than later, to strike while the iron is hot and Star Wars in the theaters. There would be new Force powers, new species, new ships, etc. There would maybe be some tweaks to the game system, but as far as the evolution of published D6, it is really hard to say. Maybe they would have come up with some of the fan house rule innovations posted here. I doubt they would have done much of anything to change the combat round from 2eR&E though, which had gone through some drastic evolution over the versions of the game, simplifying it each time. If they had thought of the R&E combat round for the 1e core, they would have done it back then.
| pulphummock wrote: | | What changes would you recommend to the 2nd edition Revised & Expanded in order to bring it up to speed to match modern game design principles and truly make it a "new edition"? |
That is quite a loaded question. So let me break this down to address it.
| pulphummock wrote: | | What changes would you recommend to the 2nd edition Revised & Expanded... |
We propose changes to R&E all the time here. It's mostly what we do here. See rancorpit.com/forums/ for more. But the purpose of the proposed changes are to just make it work better for those of us already playing this dead game.
| Sutehp wrote: | | The closest thing I've seen to a "3rd Edition" of SWD6 would have to be the REUP, the Revised, Expanded and UPdated Corebook done by Womp Rat Press, available for download at the d6 Holocron website, made by fans for fans. It's Legends oriented, but it's still worthwhile. |
Closest maybe as far as 'the most popular fan edition of the game' goes but REUP is quite intentionally by design not a 3rd edition. For all intents and purposes it is the same exact game system as 2eR&E. It updates very little, like a few tweaks to stats (Twi'leks stats come to mind). It expands the game by adding an optional ADSA system, a lot of material from other WEG sources, and fan created stats for prequel material (and yes more up-to-date EU material also).
There is a fan edition called "3rd Edition" and that changed a lot more and that would be closer to a 3rd edition than REUP is, but this 3rd edition is not nearly as popular as REUP. I actually thought that so-called "3rd Edition" is what this thread was going to be about at first.
| pulphummock wrote: | | What changes would you recommend to the 2nd edition Revised & Expanded in order to bring it up to speed to match modern game design principles and truly make it a "new edition"? |
In this scenario it is safe to say a "3rd edition" would have come out 20+ years ago, so it would would have been a "new edition" at the time still without being "modern." This hypothetical reality could have also had a WEG SW 4e before "modern" times.
Based on the history of the game, what would technically define it as a new edition would be some different stats in use, like there was between 1e and 2e. The two official revisions to 1e updated some rules while using the same stats blocks, and the same can be said between Blue Vader and R&E. If they were able to make changes without altering the stats, then it may have only been a further revised and further expanded situation and still technically 2e.
Now that doesn't speak to my personal definition of what updates qualify it as a new edition, but that is the WEG precedent we have. I consider my personal house system to only be a tweak of R&E, but I do change some of the stats so WEG would consider my system another full edition. WEG seemed to base edition definition on product compatibility, a very practical standard.
| pulphummock wrote: | | What changes would you recommend to the 2nd edition Revised & Expanded in order to bring it up to speed to match modern game design principles...? |
Outside of the Pit I recently read about a gamer that has never played any edition of Star Wars D6 but hates "90s game design" so much that he refuses to even try the game, which to me comes across as full on prejudice. What if Star Wars D6 is different than the 90s games that he's had a negative experience with? Is it really the case that all RPGs of certain eras share game mechanical aspects that gamers may like or dislike? My 42 years of roleplaying experience may be considered extremely sheltered by some gamers because I am very far from someone who has come anywhere close to even trying every flavor of the month. But in the relative handful of games I have played, the decade or era similarities between two sharply different game systems is almost non-existent.
For example, in this recent post I go into my personal history with D&D. I can say that 1970s D&D has more in common with 2000s D&D than 90s WEG Star Wars has with 90s D&D. So I'm not getting the era categorization of game systems at all. The two game system are starkly different across all eras that I am familiar with. What are some specific examples of common pre-modern general game mechanical trends and modern ones that appear in games?
The existence of "modern" game mechanic innovations has been intimated here before but I have never really gotten a satisfactory explanation for what this means, so it comes across to me as a baseless criticism of D6. What specific aspects of R&E are considered outdated, that "modern" game systems do better, and what are the specific rules of which games/systems that are better. In what ways is R&E not "up to speed" with "modern game design principles"? This seems to be a vital qualification to get any specific answers to your question.
I would very must appreciate any elucidation you can provide. Thank you.
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pakman
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Joined: 20 Jul 2021
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting question - and honestly - while maybe it has not been DIRECTLY asked (or has it?) - snippets of it get talked about all the time, at least in my perspective.
Before we start - this can be it feels like a sensitive topic at times - and even though some of my perspectives and opinions may differ from others - I do not disrespect their perspectives, even when different from my own....
A few specifics to your post....
| pulphummock wrote: | | assuming an alternate universe where West End Games still had the license to make the Star Wars RPG, what would a true 3rd edition of the game look like? |
I think the third edition would look somewhat ike D6 space - or rather, a blend of d6 space and Metabarons (an IP based on a sci-fic comic setting, coming our right after star wars and rules that are VERY close).
I don't think it would be a carbon copy - but would inherit a few things.
A few specific things I think we would get in a 3.0
Force as an attribute, and Control sense and alter as skills.
This just makes sense -and for many here on the pit is a consideration in house rules. In metabarons their "force" type ability is an attribute, as it is in later versions of d6.
Clean up of force powers - too many too messy, too many similar.
I think they would move to a single roll, system - and get rid of a lot of duplicate powers.
Skill reduction
Skills in later d6 are out of control - over 100 skills. way too many in my opinion. There is a good reason most house rules change a lot of skills...but honestly, I think this is a side affect of not having enough advanced skills.....
Revision and Expanding of Advanced Skills
This was already happening in d6 star wars - the idea of advanced skills granting lists of abilities (manuvers, moves, techniques, what ever we want to call them) with martial arts in later d6 books. In d6 legends and a few other documents, we see examples of this as well. I think this is a good path - as it gives more options for non-force users - other than just having blaster at 9d.
What I am not sure of
Action Steps or round by round?
One of the things that got dropped in later versions of d6 was action steps - things just went round by round. Honestly - I am not sure if this would be kept or not. I can see some advantages to it - but not sure. Clearly they were thinking about it....
Removing Dodge as a Reaction
This is kind of linked to the previous one - personally, I think they go hand in hand. If feels like this is needed, but not sure.
Adjusting the force power curve
Right now, force powers are pathetically unusable in the beginning, and way too powerful at the end. This needs to be normalized (this is not as difficult as it seems - but more on that later). I suspect they would get to this eventually - as you can see them standardizing powers in later versions.
3.1 or 3.5 would be the important one...
Honestly, I don't think it would be 3.0 we would see the biggest change (although some of what I listed above would be big), but later editions - especially in responding to new star wars content, and more modern game elements (yes, I know....).
A few examples.
Another force power limiter than dark side and dice.
Right now the balance for force powers is that they are hard to do at lower level, and that jedi are almost treated like paladins to limit them. I think we would see a more relaxed moral code - and instead see some sort of other limiter - either like fatigue, or vitality etc.
Better Support for more era's of play
We have had incredibly popular games like knights of the old republic by now, and the prequels - this would lead to players considering more eras - ones needing rules support - and the biggest - eras with jedi being common (this ties into needing more limits on jedi powers - as hiding from inquisitors is not a thing in the high republic).
Clean up and unification of many tables and terms.
Things are all over the place - in the game - tons of inconsistent terms, too many tables, etc. I think we would see a LOT of clean up.
this is one example of changes in more modern systems - keywords, consistent terminology, unification of concepts and terms etc.
More character building options
Or rather - a structured approach for making templates for experienced players. We would see a mix of "homeworld + first job + archetype = template" type thing. Where you could mix say an "outer rim settlement" - "explorer" + shy = "laconic scout". type thing. I would see a blend of content say form dnd5e background, cyberpunk life paths, with Force and Destiny homeworlds, with then something like MythicD6 personality archetypes. Of course, making it elegant would be the challenge....
Teamwork rules
D6 is sorely missing quantified rules on teamwork - players working together - no, not the officer leading troops - but one player helping another - everything from cover fire to helping with a medpac. Yes, many gm's do house rules like this - but I mean quantified within the rules structure.
More social encounter rules
Again, from more modern games - different social skills being useful for bolstering your own team to hinder the other. This might not come out until the 4.0 rules - however....say if weg was still going by the mid 2012 or so. I mean, star wars is very cinematic - and one of the most common movie tropes is the "trash talk" phase in a scene....
Anyway, this is starting to get long - but one thing is abundantly clear - while everyone here loves this decades old game - clearly, but looking at the incredibly active house rules topics - we can all see ways in which we would change it.
A new edition...
| Quote: | | What changes would you recommend to the 2nd edition Revised & Expanded in order to bring it up to speed to match modern game design principles and truly make it a "new edition"? |
I love d6, so much that after 30 years of playing various versions of star wars, my group has decided to come back to d6 again. However, we also realize as many others do, the experience certainly would benefit from house rules.
As inspired by my past experiences in d6 (had a bunch of house rules in the 90s), other versions of star wars, many other games (star wars and others) and of course, the incredibly supportive and innovative community here at the pit - our d6 game has a LOT of house rules.
I started having so many changes (or renaming of things) that instead of a big house rules document - that I am just writing a new version - based on all the inputs. My goal is 250 pages, I have about 100 pages done...
It is obviously still d6 star wars - the core is the same (some things have been renamed, or changed a bit here and there) and a lot of things have been added - but also a lot of things have been unified and streamlined.
While I have posted many questions and snippets of rules here and other places over time, I am finishing up my "Core Rules" or bare bones section now - and I will be posting my first couple of chapter soon for feedback.
While I am 100% certain that many will not care for it as a package, I do hope that some will find parts that they can use in their games.
Best of luck in whatever anyone may do in their games!
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Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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pulphummock
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Joined: 04 Feb 2023
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | Welcome to the Pit, pulphummock!
The closest thing I've seen to a "3rd Edition" of SWD6 would have to be the REUP, the Revised, Expanded and UPdated Corebook done by Womp Rat Press, available for download at the d6 Holocron website, made by fans for fans. It's Legends oriented, but it's still worthwhile. |
Thanks so much for the warm welcome, Sutehp! I really appreciate it.
Yes, I am a big fan of REUP. But if I'm not mistaken, it was more of a "repackaging" of R&E, correct? (Am I wrong about that? I had thought it was a re-organization of the R&E rules. But it has been a few years since I read up on the origins of that very cool project.)
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pulphummock
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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Hi Whill,
Thank you so much for the in-depth answer! And yes, my sincere apologies: it is a bit of a loaded question, isn't it? Ha! I certainly did not mean to suggest that any of you esteemed members of this great body should have to retrieve every single suggested house rule/system improvement ever posted in the forums in any significant detail, especially for a young cadet like me, ha!
I guess what I meant to ask was more like, "If you had to give a quick list of issues that you see come up the most often in this forum (or in your own home game), what would they be in your estimation?"
It's such a lovely system already that I am quite fond of! But I have my own working list of improvements and I was interested in hearing what all of you "system experts" think off-hand about this subject, again, because I have never seen a "formal" list anywhere in a single thread.
| Quote: | We propose changes to R&E all the time here. It's mostly what we do here. See rancorpit.com/forums/ for more. But the purpose of the proposed changes are to just make it work better for those of us already playing this dead game.
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A dead game you say, Whill? Ah! But that depends greatly on our point of view!
| Quote: | | Closest maybe as far as 'the most popular fan edition of the game' goes but REUP is quite intentionally by design not a 3rd edition. For all intents and purposes it is the same exact game system as 2eR&E. It updates very little, like a few tweaks to stats (Twi'leks stats come to mind). It expands the game by adding an optional ADSA system, a lot of material from other WEG sources, and fan created stats for prequel material (and yes more up-to-date EU material also). |
Ah, yes. I thought so. Thank you for addressing this.
| Quote: | There is a fan edition called "3rd Edition" and that changed a lot more and that would be closer to a 3rd edition than REUP is, but this 3rd edition is not nearly as popular as REUP. I actually thought that so-called "3rd Edition" is what this thread was going to be about at first.
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Oh, really? I have actually never heard of that. Interesting. Going to have to Google it now and take a look. Let me see if I can find it.
| Quote: | | In this scenario it is safe to say a "3rd edition" would have come out 20+ years ago, so it would would have been a "new edition" at the time still without being "modern." This hypothetical reality could have also had a WEG SW 4e before "modern" times. |
Yes, I guess it has been that long, hasn't it? (Rather tragic when you realize there could have been a 3rd, 4th, even 5th edition by now!)
| Quote: | Based on the history of the game, what would technically define it as a new edition would be some different stats in use, like there was between 1e and 2e. The two official revisions to 1e updated some rules while using the same stats blocks, and the same can be said between Blue Vader and R&E. If they were able to make changes without altering the stats, then it may have only been a further revised and further expanded situation and still technically 2e.
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Okay, this is exactly what I was hoping for! I had never considered what it was that made each edition "different." Thank you for sharing your insight on this. That is extremely helpful.
| Quote: | What are some specific examples of common pre-modern general game mechanical trends and modern ones that appear in games?
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Ah, forgive me! I did not mean to suggest that the game is outdated. Perhaps I could have chosen my words more carefully. (Again, my sincere apologies!) I only meant to suggest that the game has not been updated in a long time and would have certainly seen some modifications from edition to edition, given the hypothetical scenario that WEG was still releasing it and re-releasing it over the last 20 years, as you pointed out.
I guess when I say "modern" design principles, I mean things like "bounded accuracy" (5E principle) where the huge modifiers were reined in tightened up to produce a smaller band of die results using the d20. In a similar way, would WEG have tightened up the die code pools to a more manageable level, considering that I often hear a common criticism that the large fistfuls of dice can get unwieldy. Just as an example.
| Quote: | This seems to be a vital qualification to get any specific answers to your question.
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Yes, I seemed to have stepped in it a bit, haha! More clarity on my part would have been much more helpful for such a big ask.
So, based on my own experience with WEG Star Wars, here are some of my own observations about the system--tweaks I would consider making myself.
1. Math issues. What I mean here is that there seems to be a lack of codification with various math systems throughout the game. For example, the wound level ranges are not as "neat" as, say, the way that 3 pips always equals 1D. Or like the difficulty number ranges are not always equal to each other: some are between 1 - 5 (5-point spread, which is easy to remember), but others are between 21 - 30 (10-point spread). Does that make sense? (I'm not sure if it does writing it out! Lol.) It seems that there are some odd choices from time to time in certain systems throughout the game where the math is a touch strange. Maybe this has to do with a d6 averaging out to 3.5. But I would wonder if a new edition might clean some of that up. Make things a touch more uniformed throughout, and therefore, easier to memorize.
2. Static defenses, from all accounts. Seems like a lot of people find this Mini-Six innovation to be very popular. And it definitely seems to speed up the game.
3. Making wound levels a touch easier to understand for new players. While those with system mastery seem to get it just fine, it also seems like new players can get a bit confused (and have trouble understanding) the wound charts as they are presented in the game rules.
4. Huge fistfuls of dice slowing the game down. I saw that Eric Gibson came up with that chart in the back of D6 Space that limited rolled dice to 5D + an averaged modifier with the rest of a roll's die code. But I wonder if the answer would be something akin to 5E's "bounded accuracy," limiting die codes to smaller pools as a hard limit to mortal abilities.
5. High attack rolls not really affecting the damage rolls in any meaningful way, as written. For example, if Han Solo blasts a stormtrooper and beats the trooper's Dodge roll by 25 points, that doesn't affect his damage roll with the heavy blaster at all. Han might conceivably roll lower than the trooper's "soak" or "damage resistance," doing absolutely nothing to the trooper at all. This became enough of a problem at my table last game I ran that I decided to institute an AMV (Attack Margin-of-Victory) house rule: whatever amount an attack roll beats a target's defense gets added as a bonus to the attacker's damage roll (for example, if Han beats a trooper's dodge by 4 points, he adds 4 points to his heavy blaster's damage code). My players loved this rule and it sped combat up!
6. Massively huge skill list being streamlined and tightened up. (Also seems to be a common complaint.)
7. Coming up with an elegant, fun, and cinematic way to do lightsaber duels like in the movies.
8. Cleaning up some of the rules terminology a bit. My favorite example: a "difficult" "difficulty number" (lol). Just touching up some terminology so that it is a bit clearer from time to time, you know what I mean?
9. Wild Die mods. I see that Mini-Six dropped the "1" being subtracted with another die from the total roll. And then Zorro RPG made it where "1" might be replaced with a complication, while also making it so that a "6" did not explode if the roll already succeeded: instead, it gave a reward of some kind.
10. Character points being used to improve skills while also being used to improve rolls. (Basically, encouraging players to spend their "XP" reward to win in the moment. I think you suggested once in a post that it would be a simple matter to separate those two things.)
11. The "Dodge" skill tax. (Everybody needs it!)
Etc.
I guess I'm just wondering what "working list" of rule mechanic adjustments/revisions or even outright replacements would be on the examination table under the redesign team's microscope, if that makes sense! Again, this is just a fun exercise to see what all you impressive people consider to be ways to improve the beloved system.
And for clarity: In no way do I mean this post to sound like an accusation that the game is poorly designed or anything to that effect! Quite the opposite! It's a wonderful system and it needs to come back!
Again, I appreciate the thoroughness of your answers, Whill. This is a fun site and I'm very honored to be on here speaking with all of you.
Very Best,
PH
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fogger1138
Lieutenant
Joined: 25 Feb 2021
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Location: Maine
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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| pulphummock wrote: | | Wild Die mods. I see that Mini-Six dropped the "1" being subtracted with another die from the total roll. And then Zorro RPG made it where "1" might be replaced with a complication |
Just FYI, both of these were already Wild Die options in RAW, as per page 74 of R&E.
For the first roll only, if the wild die comes up as a 1, the player must tell the gamemaster. The gamemaster can choose one of three options:
- Add up the dice normally.
- Total up the skill dice normally to see if the skill roll succeeded, but a "complication" occurs.
- Subtract the one and also subtract the highest other die. |
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pulphummock
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Joined: 04 Feb 2023
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Pak!
| pakman wrote: | I think the third edition would look somewhat ike D6 space - or rather, a blend of d6 space and Metabarons (an IP based on a sci-fic comic setting, coming our right after star wars and rules that are VERY close).
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Ah, I remember Metabarons! Very cool book.
| Quote: | Force as an attribute, and Control sense and alter as skills.
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Okay, I have seen this suggested a lot myself. And it does seem like a “hole” even when you look at the character sheet. I like that idea.
| Quote: | Revision and Expanding of Advanced Skills
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Interesting. I have never heard of this before. That’s kind of cool!
| Quote: | Action Steps or round by round?
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I’m a big fan of “no initiative” (players always go first as a side unless they get ambushed) or the way that REUP does “side” initiative. Less is more when it comes to starting combat! Get right to blasting, ha!
| Quote: | Adjusting the force power curve
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Yes! This seems to be the same problem D&D has with its wizards and clerics, ha!
Reaction dodges: I’m a fan of the Mini-Six static defenses that seems to resolve this, for sure. It sped up the game in my home campaign last time I ran it. Definitely innovative.
Force power limiters: hmmmm. Something to think about.
Era’s of play: Yes, I do agree with this. Don’t they always seem to just focus on the classic trilogy? (Not that there is anything wrong with those, of course! I grew up on them, after all, ha! But it would be fun to see more books on all of the various era’s and TV shows, etc.)
Character building: yes, it does seem like even the “advantages/disadvantages” system added in REUP still doesn’t really do it for me and my players. Whatever one thinks about D&D and games like it, there does seem to be something to that whole “class”-based style of game. Each class feels unique, in other words. But sometimes in SW it can seem like every Jedi/Non-Jedi character is very similar. I wonder what the solution would be. More abilities, like feats? A few “core abilities” that you only get a character creation? Hmmm. Nobody wants their Star Wars to be like D&D, by any means! Lol. But still, is there anything that can be brought in from other systems or even the source material that might help distinguish PC from PC a bit more? Questions to ask ourselves!
| Quote: | While I have posted many questions and snippets of rules here and other places over time, I am finishing up my "Core Rules" or bare bones section now - and I will be posting my first couple of chapter soon for feedback.
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Oh, that’s really cool! I’d love to read through them if you ever care to post them. It’s fun to see what other players do in their home games. (You can find some real gems that way!)
Thanks so much for taking the time to give me such a detailed reply.
_________________
"Dungeon Master, what is good in life?"
"To crush your PC's, see their character sheets pile before you, and hear the lamentation of the players!"
Last edited by pulphummock on Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pulphummock
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Joined: 04 Feb 2023
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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| fogger1138 wrote: | Just FYI, both of these were already Wild Die options in RAW, as per page 74 of R&E.
For the first roll only, if the wild die comes up as a 1, the player must tell the gamemaster. The gamemaster can choose one of three options:
- Add up the dice normally.
- Total up the skill dice normally to see if the skill roll succeeded, but a "complication" occurs.
- Subtract the one and also subtract the highest other die. |
Oh, look at that, ha! Sounds like someone (me) needs to go back and re-read his R&E book! I probably mixed up my editions. Been reading a lot of 1E lately, Mini-Six, and REUP.
Thanks for pointing that out.
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"Dungeon Master, what is good in life?"
"To crush your PC's, see their character sheets pile before you, and hear the lamentation of the players!" |
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pakman
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Posts: 384
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:08 am Post subject: |
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Great conversation....
We all love D6 here, and there are TONS of ideas for improving our beloved 30 year old game (Whill has some awesome damage and skill re-writes, and wait till you see CRM's stuff - he is way more crunchy than I perfer - but his stuff is well thought out and I gain insights from it.... garkhl as some great ideas -- but I diagress - if I start mentioning everybody - I won't get to my post!).
In regards to your comments - here are some of the things I am doing in my house rules;
| pulphummock wrote: | | 1 - Math issues.... |
I have normalized and standardized my difficulty levels - there are ten of them, and they have set difficulty numbers of 5 per level. They have most of the familiar descriptions, but are primarily referenced by their difficulty level.
Example;
Difficulty Levels, abbreviated DL1 – DL10, have descriptions to describe how challenging they are, from Very Easy to Impossible.
The DL (Difficulty Level) and Difficulty Numbers are related – each level translates into adding 5 for the Difficulty Number.
DL Description Difficulty Number
DL1 Very Easy 5+
DL2 Easy 10+
DL3 Moderate 15+
DL4 Difficult 20+
DL5 Very Difficult25+
DL6 Extremely Difficult 30+
DL7 Heroic 35+
DL8 Legendary 40+
DL9 Insane 45+
DL10 Impossible 50+
This has an added benefit of being able to quickly shift difficulty level in nomenclature - for example, an affect (cover, speed, etc.) instead of messing with dice (unless the gm really wants to) can just shift a difficulty level - +1DL, +2DL, or -1DL etc.
Additionally, the set numbers also allow for the concept of what I call "Measure of Success" (known as result points in later editions). how well a player did.
Basically, it is the idea, of with set linear values, you can very easily calculates how much better a character did with a skill.
Need a DL3 (15) but rolled well enough for DL4 (20) - that means you not only succeeded but got 1 Measure of success over. This terminology allows for very quickly doing bonuses, or effects of things. Like saying a skill does something to an opponent, and lasts an additions round per Measure Of Success. Or a force power gives a bonus of +1, with an additional +1 per Measure of Success. In actual play, this makes a lot of things much simpler to remember, and execute.
| Quote: | | 2 - Static Defenses. |
Later editions just say the base difficulty of hitting is 10, and things modify that. (base defense). I call it DL2. 
I do everything in difficulty levels - thus if a player rolls dodge, and gets at 17, we dont' even do math - that is DL3, thus they are DL3 to hit.
(this will make more sense on your #4).
| Quote: | | 3. Making wound levels a touch easier to understand for new players. |
I have reworded things, such that the "wound" and "second wound" are just "light wounds", and you can take a number of light wounds. Bigger creatures, can take more (like a wampa or rancor).
Also, every single damage chart - vehicles, star ships, objects, characters - uses similar terminology, and levels. Also, there is no "Stun".
The first level is "Shaken". that way there is zero confusion for new players (yes, the old salty crowd here knows the difference between stun and stun...er...).
Also, STUN weapons - use the exact same damage chart and rules - no separate chart, or terms, etc.
Except, they are temporary and wear off. So a character who gets a "light wound" result with a stun weapon - suffers the same -1D as a wounded character - just that light wound wears off.
I give players tokens for damage (poker chips). The permanent ones, for damage - are red or orange - the stun ones - are blue. A few other temporary affects - are yellow.
At the end of an encounter - they give back the blue and yellow. They have to heal the red and orange, etc. easy peasy.
| Quote: | | 4. Huge fistfuls of dice slowing the game down. |
Now, some folks - are VERY fast at reading dice and math. (personally, I am - years of wargaming ....). However, many people are not (including most of my players).
My house rules re-write includes the option for "success dice" where each die above a certain number counts as a success (4+). We even used colored dice, which are blue for the successes, and red for fail - they are incredibly fast to read - even with like 8 or 14 dice on the table (had a massive group effort past session - they had 14 dice...).
Each success - matches one Difficultly Level (see above) - so it is incredibly fast to see "I got 4 successes, thus I hit DL4".
Again, everything in my rules work with additive dice, but we had used success based dice in other systems, and use it well in my game. (if other say "we don't need them..." that is great - don't use them - to each their own).
| Quote: | | 5. High attack rolls not really affecting the damage rolls in any meaningful way, as written. |
My house rule is similar to yours - each DL (difficulty level, see above) above the target difficulty, is +1 pip to damage.
Some special situations or advanced skills can modify this, but you get the idea.
| Quote: | | 6. Massively huge skill list being streamlined and tightened up. (Also seems to be a common complaint.) |
I have 48 skills. A LOT Of effort went into my list.
(whill has a great skill document on this as well.).
| Quote: | | 7. Coming up with an elegant, fun, and cinematic way to do lightsaber duels like in the movies. |
I am working on my advanced lightsaber skill - have to say -not an easy task to keep it simple. Now, my friends and I are mostly theater people - so we get really cinematic in our descriptions - but my lightsaber forms are still in beta....
| Quote: | | 8. Cleaning up some of the rules terminology a bit. |
Yes, absolutely - I have ruthlessly gone through and cleaned up many terms. I even have a list of keywords and proper noun terms (and a defined list of them) - this incredibly helps. I also rationalized many force powers, and martial arts traits and combat options. They may have different fluffly names - but a lot of them do common things.
For example, I have an affect called "Knock Back" - basically, if successful on character pushes another away from them a distance etc. About six different things can cause this affect - from martial arts "throws, sweeps etc." to brawling moves "knock back, push, etc." to combat moves "Kick" to force powers "Force Slam" and "Force Push". All do the same effect. One rule - instead of six different ones.
Covered in other places - I have added a few other terms, for different dramatic effect. 1 and 6 are still the same. I call a 1 a "mishap" and when the player gets a 1 AND they fail - a critical failure. That way I can stage effects (like a for repairs - a failure - you can try again at +1DL, but a critical failure - is worse!).
| Quote: | | 10. Character points being used to improve skills while also being used to improve rolls. |
100% separate in my game.
I give XP, xp is used to improve characters during an "Character Advancement".
During game sessions, characters get "hero dice" they are basically, CP that can be spent during the session - and are rewarded for good roleplaying etc.
These inspire a lot more cinematic moments - as they don't worry about spending their xp. (I give less xp, about 2 points per game session - most adventures are 4-6 sessions).
| Quote: | | 11. The "Dodge" skill tax. |
I WAS going to change dodge - make it when used as a reaction and adding an action at a penalty - but I decided not too. If felt too...nit picky.
A few other things...
I have also added rules for teamwork (helping other characters - very simple rules) and hindering opponents (either with social skills or otherwise).
Short version of my hinder rules;
| Code: | Hindering your Foes
Characters have more ways of affecting their adversaries than just combat. From kicking sand in the face, knocking crates in the day, or even a scathing insult or intimidating taunt.
A Hinder action is where a character is attempting to negatively affect their foe, either mentally, physically or otherwise. These are often simple opposed checks, which often have a higher chance of success than a combat-based attack.
Based on the player’s idea, the GM assigns a Skill or Attribute check based on the action, and the Attribute or Skill the target resists with; success can render a foe Distracted or Vulnerable.
Additional Details on using Skills or specific modifiers for various situations are covered in the chapter Attributes and Skills |
This was inspired by the game Savage worlds - it is a really tight system, that clearly has been inspired by d6 - but with continued advancement over the years. I still like the core of my d6 more than savage worlds - but have taken a lot of ideas from it.
Anyway - enough for now. I will post up my System Summary and New Character Quick Start - once I figure out the best way to do that (I don't like using google drive).
My "bare bones" core rule section is almost done - I will post that up for review as well.
My attributes and skills are done (except for advanced skills - still working on those) and my Force Powers re-write is done - (except light saber forms - still working on that).
At it's core - it is d6 star wars - just with some house rules - but hey, here on the pit there is NO shortage of cool ideas....(CRM still has me beat as far as quantity, and possibly quality of house rules.... .
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Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14030
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:21 am Post subject: Re: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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| pulphummock wrote: |
A dead game you say, Whill? Ah! But that depends greatly on our point of view!
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I still see this game played, but most gamers i know of personally, do 5e adnd or pathfinder, these days... Or so it seems.
| pulphummock wrote: | 1. Math issues. What I mean here is that there seems to be a lack of codification with various math systems throughout the game. For example, the wound level ranges are not as "neat" as, say, the way that 3 pips always equals 1D. Or like the difficulty number ranges are not always equal to each other: some are between 1 - 5 (5-point spread, which is easy to remember), but others are between 21 - 30 (10-point spread). Does that make sense? (I'm not sure if it does writing it out! Lol.) It seems that there are some odd choices from time to time in certain systems throughout the game where the math is a touch strange. Maybe this has to do with a d6 averaging out to 3.5. But I would wonder if a new edition might clean some of that up. Make things a touch more uniformed throughout, and therefore, easier to memorize.
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I think they did the 5 point brackets in the early diff levels, due to making it easier to GET those.. And as you go up, it makes hitting that diff, harder, as necessitated BY that difficulty...
| pulphummock wrote: | 4. Huge fistfuls of dice slowing the game down. I saw that Eric Gibson came up with that chart in the back of D6 Space that limited rolled dice to 5D + an averaged modifier with the rest of a roll's die code. But I wonder if the answer would be something akin to 5E's "bounded accuracy," limiting die codes to smaller pools as a hard limit to mortal abilities.
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Bucket o dice is why i see lots of folks playing DW d6..
| pulphummock wrote: | 5. High attack rolls not really affecting the damage rolls in any meaningful way, as written. For example, if Han Solo blasts a stormtrooper and beats the trooper's Dodge roll by 25 points, that doesn't affect his damage roll with the heavy blaster at all. Han might conceivably roll lower than the trooper's "soak" or "damage resistance," doing absolutely nothing to the trooper at all. This became enough of a problem at my table last game I ran that I decided to institute an AMV (Attack Margin-of-Victory) house rule: whatever amount an attack roll beats a target's defense gets added as a bonus to the attacker's damage roll (for example, if Han beats a trooper's dodge by 4 points, he adds 4 points to his heavy blaster's damage code). My players loved this rule and it sped combat up!
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One of the 2e books, Rules of Engagement HAD those sorts of rules.. You can do dice pooling, by taking 1d off your to hit pool, to add 1d to damage, and 2 that were in that AMOV like you suggested..
| pulphummock wrote: | 10. Character points being used to improve skills while also being used to improve rolls. (Basically, encouraging players to spend their "XP" reward to win in the moment. I think you suggested once in a post that it would be a simple matter to separate those two things.)
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I've seen some others saying "split CP" into xp and luck points (basically the spending for a d in combat etc)..
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10296
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:36 am Post subject: Re: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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| pulphummock wrote: | Hi Whill, Thank you so much for the in-depth answer! And yes, my sincere apologies: it is a bit of a loaded question, isn't it? Ha! I certainly did not mean to suggest that any of you esteemed members of this great body should have to retrieve every single suggested house rule/system improvement ever posted in the forums in any significant detail, especially for a young cadet like me, ha!
I guess what I meant to ask was more like, "If you had to give a quick list of issues that you see come up the most often in this forum (or in your own home game), what would they be in your estimation?" |
That's a very different question. Even a "quick list" would be a massive undertaking. But here is a partial list I made the last time I was asked for a concise list of minor grievances addressed by the first draft of a house rules website I created (called Star Wars D6 Damage).
| Quote: | | A dead game you say, Whill? Ah! But that depends greatly on our point of view! |
We are here so it is not dead to us. I am a member of a "Dead Games Society" were "dead" games are generally defined as being games that are 'out of print'. By that definition, WEG Star Wars is a dead game. In 2018 the 1e core and Sb temporally came back into print (technically a very similar reproduction and not a reprint), but that was a limited run that is sold out at the source now, so after a brief resurrection even 1e is back to being a dead game.
I used that terminology for emphasis because, from your first post, you didn't seem to quite "know the room" that well. Here, we are grognards devoted to a game that ceased publication in 1998. If you want to talk about the evolution of game systems and how our game is outdated, then you would have to be more specific with examples because we obviously don't feel it is that out of date. (But after your subsequent posts I feel I understand where you are coming from a lot better.)
As I tried to convey, we modify the game system primarily because it just occurs to us how things could be improved. I am certainly open to consider "innovations" from any source, including other game systems, old or new. But newer game design is not inherently superior. I have a little experience with more modern game designs and they overall suck compared to D6. (However I'm not prejudiced against all modern game systems because of my experiences.)
| Quote: | | Oh, really? I have actually never heard of that. Interesting. Going to have to Google it now and take a look. Let me see if I can find it. |
No need to google it. The "3rd Edition" fan rules document is in our library of fan documents: https://rancorpit.com/forums/downloads/index.html#Fan%20Editions
| Quote: | | Ah, forgive me! I did not mean to suggest that the game is outdated. Perhaps I could have chosen my words more carefully. (Again, my sincere apologies!) |
Apology accepted, Captain Needa. 
| Quote: | | I guess when I say "modern" design principles, I mean things like "bounded accuracy" (5E principle) where the huge modifiers were reined in tightened up to produce a smaller band of die results using the d20. In a similar way, would WEG have tightened up the die code pools to a more manageable level, considering that I often hear a common criticism that the large fistfuls of dice can get unwieldy. Just as an example. |
A few things. (1) Reducing the band of results comes with a loss of nuance that most game systems are ok with, for the sake of arithmetical simplicity. (2) There is the success-based Legend variant of D6 (still alive today in Khepera Publishing's Mythic D6). I don't use it because I feel you lose too much nuance. (3) This isn't a modern/evolution thing. I've was there. The "buckets of dice" criticism actually existed back then, propelled by WEG competitors, their loyal customers, and arithmetically challenged gamers.
Some of us actually like counting pips. It's part of the fun. In the 35 years I've been playing this game, I've been blessed with having very few players that have had any difficulty with the arithmetic. For those few players who have had difficulty, there has been a village of support and assistance. I've seen a couple players have difficulty at first and then become old pros at it as the campaign goes on.
| Quote: | | Math issues. What I mean here is that there seems to be a lack of codification with various math systems throughout the game. For example, the wound level ranges are not as "neat" as, say, the way that 3 pips always equals 1D. Or like the difficulty number ranges are not always equal to each other: some are between 1 - 5 (5-point spread, which is easy to remember), but others are between 21 - 30 (10-point spread). Does that make sense? (I'm not sure if it does writing it out! Lol.) It seems that there are some odd choices from time to time in certain systems throughout the game where the math is a touch strange. Maybe this has to do with a d6 averaging out to 3.5. But I would wonder if a new edition might clean some of that up. Make things a touch more uniformed throughout, and therefore, easier to memorize. |
A valid observation. I have adjusted the difficulty chart so that the die code ranges directly correspond to die code probabilities, so 1D does indeed equal 3.5 (so in effect the pattern is 2D = 7). This makes planning the challenge levels of NPCs and such easier. I have a bachelor degree in mathematics so I couldn't not tweak this.
As far as the die roll difference ranges on the wound chart, I've tried different things and played around with the wound system. One issue was that each level corresponded to a different sized range, and I have eliminated that but making all ranges 4. As far as that particular choice, it was a matter of finding the right deadliness level, and 4 each kept it close to RAW. For this I didn't feel it is important to be exactly 3.5 each because whatever I chose it is the same for NPCs and PCs. See the link below that goes to my wound system for more details.
| Quote: | | Static defenses, from all accounts. Seems like a lot of people find this Mini-Six innovation to be very popular. And it definitely seems to speed up the game. |
The relative popularity of static defenses is something I have observed a bit of as well. A handful here like that option. I guess I have to concede that this may be an evolution thing, but that is only based on the evolution of D6/OpenD6. From what I've seen, a lot of non-D6 game systems don't have dodge rolls, both back in the 80s/90s and now. If you say there used to be more non-D6 games that had dodge rolls like SWD6 and now there are less, I'll take your word for it. So far I personally haven't seen a need for removing the dodge rolls in my game but I am open to considering anyone's house rules for it.
| Quote: | | Making wound levels a touch easier to understand for new players. While those with system mastery seem to get it just fine, it also seems like new players can get a bit confused (and have trouble understanding) the wound charts as they are presented in the game rules. |
I've rewritten the wound system. It is probably only slightly less confusing to new people, only from being more explicit and dealing with all the edge situations. But I don't see confusion as a big concern because the nature of the game itself allows new people to join in easily. The GM and other players help out new players out and the system is simple enough that it is picked up quickly. This is only an issue because of the decades of hit points.
I'll never forget reading the wound system in 1987 and having a big ah-ha moment that this was the better way than hit points, even 1e's multiplication-based version. 2e improved on the system quite a bit. I have ran many players new to D6 and I have never seen a player have trouble with any aspect of it over the long term. Until then, we help each other. Below are my rules, but I am certainly open to seeing the rules rewritten (even without my tweaks).
https://rancorpit.com/jotw/damage/characters_creatures.html
| Quote: | | Huge fistfuls of dice slowing the game down. I saw that Eric Gibson came up with that chart in the back of D6 Space that limited rolled dice to 5D + an averaged modifier with the rest of a roll's die code. But I wonder if the answer would be something akin to 5E's "bounded accuracy," limiting die codes to smaller pools as a hard limit to mortal abilities. |
I use that Purgatory D6 chart you are talking about sometimes. It's a good option for some rolls. I use an even more severe version for some things that I do think should have little randomness in it. For some lifting rolls, I tend to only have the wild die rolled and then the character just gets 3.5 for the rest of the dice pool.
| Quote: | | High attack rolls not really affecting the damage rolls in any meaningful way, as written. For example, if Han Solo blasts a stormtrooper and beats the trooper's Dodge roll by 25 points, that doesn't affect his damage roll with the heavy blaster at all. Han might conceivably roll lower than the trooper's "soak" or "damage resistance," doing absolutely nothing to the trooper at all. This became enough of a problem at my table last game I ran that I decided to institute an AMV (Attack Margin-of-Victory) house rule: whatever amount an attack roll beats a target's defense gets added as a bonus to the attacker's damage roll (for example, if Han beats a trooper's dodge by 4 points, he adds 4 points to his heavy blaster's damage code). My players loved this rule and it sped combat up! |
There are optional rules for a skill damage bonus in RAW. See Rules of Engagement: The Rebel SpecForce Handbook p.58. I've implemented my own version of it too. I also had a problem with soaking blaster bolts so I have a rule that specifically addresses that too.
| Quote: | | Massively huge skill list being streamlined and tightened up. (Also seems to be a common complaint.) |
Yeah, they went a little crazy with skills in 2e. Now my skill list is somewhere between 1e and 2e.
| Quote: | | Coming up with an elegant, fun, and cinematic way to do lightsaber duels like in the movies. |
Have you seen 'Dueling Blades' by WEG author Peter Schweighofer?
| Quote: | | Character points being used to improve skills while also being used to improve rolls. (Basically, encouraging players to spend their "XP" reward to win in the moment. I think you suggested once in a post that it would be a simple matter to separate those two things.) |
Kinda. I have 1e skill points and 2e character points both, and they both work they way do in their respective RAWs. SPs are the base experience points I award to PCs for adventures, and those can only be used to improve skills. CPs are the bonus points for good roleplaying, etc., and those can be used to burn in play and also as skill points (and a couple other uses). This way most of their points can only be used to improve the character, but they still have a few points to do whatever they want with.
| Quote: | | The "Dodge" skill tax. (Everybody needs it!) |
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain more please?
| Quote: | | I guess I'm just wondering what "working list" of rule mechanic adjustments/revisions or even outright replacements would be on the examination table under the redesign team's microscope, if that makes sense! Again, this is just a fun exercise to see what all you impressive people consider to be ways to improve the beloved system. |
I know this is a massive 20-year site with an incredible number of threads. I have spent a lot of time reading old threads in he past few years that I have been the site admin, but even I haven't read them all. Every item I replied to above has had multiple threads discussing them here over the years. I didn't link to them all but the forum does have a search function.
A few of us may have a concise overview list, but the downside of general posts like this is that discussions end up being about the items on the lists (which has already happened in this thread) so we just have an unwieldy thread that is talking about many different topics instead of parsing them out into discussions in applicable threads for each. You probably already observed that topic drift is an accepted reality of the format here. Discussing a lot of different rule modifications in a single thread just amplifies the phenomenon.
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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I think Whill has a great point about - an overall overhaul thread quickly becoming very busy....
Also, when I started my house rules review - his post;
https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=201921#201921
Was very insightful.
For me personally, it is not just about looking at areas where I feel there aer issues or gaps in the rules - but also in trying to keep the spirit of the rules, while coming up with as simple versions as possible.
This is the real challenge - I mean, after all - just about everyone here it seems is very passionate about the spirit of our favorite cinematic games of space wizards, but there are very differing levels of detailed desired.
For me personally - it is also a challenge - as being an old wargamer - I don't mind crunch - but at the same time - I can respect rules that are more streamlined - and absolutely my players prefer less crunchy rules overall.
Now, to just find time....
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pulphummock
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Joined: 04 Feb 2023
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | We all love D6 here, and there are TONS of ideas for improving our beloved 30 year old game (Whill has some awesome damage and skill re-writes, and wait till you see CRM's stuff - he is way more crunchy than I perfer - but his stuff is well thought out and I gain insights from it.... garkhl as some great ideas -- but I diagress - if I start mentioning everybody - I won't get to my post!).
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I am already a fan of CRM! Lol. There are several frequent posters on here who I've followed for many years, Whill included! (I'm particularly fond of his posts on wound levels. Many others, too.)
| Quote: | Now, some folks - are VERY fast at reading dice and math. (personally, I am - years of wargaming ....). However, many people are not (including most of my players).
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Yes, unfortunately, I have had more of the latter rather than the former. Lol.
These are all cool ideas. Thanks for sharing them!
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pulphummock
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Joined: 04 Feb 2023
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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| garhkal wrote: | I still see this game played, but most gamers i know of personally, do 5e adnd or pathfinder, these days... Or so it seems.
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Oh, you're totally right. I was just trying to work in an Obi-Wan quote, ha! 
| Quote: | Bucket o dice is why i see lots of folks playing DW d6..
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Haha! Yes, I'm one of them! And I can count fast. But I've played with too many players who, unfortunately, could not.
Nice to meet you, gar! Seen a lot of your posts over the years, too.
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