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Attributes & Skills
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Rerun941
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
Didnt know it was an optional rule (like its important Laughing ). I think its 5 CPs for a force power if you dont raise a skill (is it double with no teacher, or is it not possibly by the RAW?).


Ok, that's what I was thinking of... the 5 CPs to gain a Force power without raising Skill. I know for sure that the Tales of the Jedi Companion book had a sidebar or paragraph talking about spontaneous uses of Force powers.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rerun941 wrote:
ZzaphodD wrote:
Didnt know it was an optional rule (like its important Laughing ). I think its 5 CPs for a force power if you dont raise a skill (is it double with no teacher, or is it not possibly by the RAW?).


Ok, that's what I was thinking of... the 5 CPs to gain a Force power without raising Skill. I know for sure that the Tales of the Jedi Companion book had a sidebar or paragraph talking about spontaneous uses of Force powers.


The 'simpler' forcepowers I usually let players use spontaneously but at higher difficulties. Seeing further, hearing better, blocking out pain etc.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
The 'simpler' forcepowers I usually let players use spontaneously but at higher difficulties. Seeing further, hearing better, blocking out pain etc.


I've tried a few variations on rules reflecting instinctive use of Force powers untrained, but never came across one that I really liked. IIRC, the RAW allows it as a GM tool. As I'm writing this, though, I've thought of a possibility. You could make a rule that allows the Force Sensitive to use powers instinctively, at the cost of CPs (for lower level powers) or FPs (for the higher end stuff). It would be for one time usage per point expended, and the duration would be variable, either for the action, the round, or the scene, depending on the scenario.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
ZzaphodD wrote:
The 'simpler' forcepowers I usually let players use spontaneously but at higher difficulties. Seeing further, hearing better, blocking out pain etc.


I've tried a few variations on rules reflecting instinctive use of Force powers untrained, but never came across one that I really liked. IIRC, the RAW allows it as a GM tool. As I'm writing this, though, I've thought of a possibility. You could make a rule that allows the Force Sensitive to use powers instinctively, at the cost of CPs (for lower level powers) or FPs (for the higher end stuff). It would be for one time usage per point expended, and the duration would be variable, either for the action, the round, or the scene, depending on the scenario.


i prefer to raise the difficulty and only allow it when suitable..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
i prefer to raise the difficulty and only allow it when suitable..


I can see your point with regards to persons who have training. My suggestion was more with regards to instinctive Force use by characters who are Force sensitive, but are untrained.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
If I were to use this rule, I would base the hash marks on the skills of Control, Sense and Alter, but I would either double the cost of hash marks to purchase a CP, or I would increase the target number from 4x to 5x.

My theory here is that, through regular use of the Force skills (not just the powers), the character gains a greater understanding of the Force in general, and so opens up his mind to new possibilities, which are presented in-game as new powers.


That's entirely up to you. I prefer Force Powers to be difficult to attain and I'd rather that you had to consciously spend your limited supply of character points to do so. I might consider doing things differently if the game were set in some sort of Golden Age of the Force (say long before the birth of Yoda) when Jedi were plentiful and the Empire not even considered but not in the Era of the Rebellion. Knowledge of the Force has been actively stomped out (not entirely but even so) so Force Skills and powers should take active effort (IE character points) to gain.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
As I understand it (and I might be way off base) every pip you increase a force skill gives the character another power. I don't like the idea that a character can use one force power over and over and learn an entirely different power from it.


Plus your force potential (skill level) is something you have to actually earn, where as regular skills can increase via experience... hence the skills can be 'hashed' upwards, but the force skills must still get CPed..
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Quote:
Regarding the proposal to use hash marks in WEG SW. Sounds like waaay too much book keeping Sad to me.


I think you underestimate how rabidly interested in bookkeeping a player will become if it involves a method of increasing their character's skill level faster. Naturally, depending on your campaign, the GM may have to double-check occasionally and apply appropriate punishment if he finds that someone has been cheating.

Some players will go to great efforts to increase the character's skill. Some are less concerned. You appear to GM for many of the former. I have a number of the latter. But really I meant it sounded like too much book keeping for the GM. I'm a lot less interested in complicated rules and a lot of book keeping than I was 10 or 20 years ago. My players tend to be even less interested in complicated rules and book keeping than I am. Different strokes for different folks.

From a system standpoint, what Esoomian proposed sounds reasonable and functional if one is willing to do the player book keeping and GM auditing.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
That's entirely up to you. I prefer Force Powers to be difficult to attain and I'd rather that you had to consciously spend your limited supply of character points to do so. I might consider doing things differently if the game were set in some sort of Golden Age of the Force (say long before the birth of Yoda) when Jedi were plentiful and the Empire not even considered but not in the Era of the Rebellion. Knowledge of the Force has been actively stomped out (not entirely but even so) so Force Skills and powers should take active effort (IE character points) to gain.


Yeah, I tend to be a lot freer with Jedi and their abilities than in the RAW, but I counterbalance it by having heavier in game restrictions on the Jedi's behavior, especially during the Rebellion era. After some trial-and-fail (sometimes spectacularly so), most of my players tend to steer clear of Jedi characters unless they are specifically looking for a roleplaying challenge.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:31 am    Post subject: Re: Attributes & Skills Reply with quote

WARNING: Extreme Thread Necromancy Ahead.

Watch your shoes.


CRMcNeill wrote:
I'd like to suggest a more real world version of improving attributes and skills.

Quote:
My problem with this rule is that, in real life, a person with higher natural aptitude tends to learn faster than a person who is not so naturally inclined. In real life, I am relatively smart, and tend to find learning new things relatively easy. Conversely, someone who is athletically inclined will tend to pick up physical activities much more quickly than a fatbeard like me.

I think the rules for Skills and Attributes should be changed to reflect this real life truth.

Okay, giving this a bump because I had a new thought on it.

Short version, when improving a skill a full D, provide a CP bonus equal to the number of Attribute Dice (rounded down) for the skill in question.

For example, say a character with a Dexterity of 3D+2 wishes to improve his Blaster skill from 5D to 6D. Normally, that would cost him 15 CP (5 for each pip). However, because of his Attribute (3D+2), he receives 3 bonus CP, which reduces the price to 12 CP. The bonus CP may be applied in any order the player wishes (all on a single pip or split between them), but once they are used, the player receives no more until he improves his skill to the next full D number. In this case, if the player spent all 3 of his bonus CP on improving from 5D to 5D+1, he would have to pay full price to improve from 5D+1 to 5D+2, and from 5D+2 to 6D. Once he reached 6D, he would 3 more bonus CP to spend on advancing from 6D to 7D.

Again, the idea is that a character with a natural aptitude for certain things will be more likely to improve his skill more quickly than someone who lacks that natural aptitude.

It's also possible to give the bonus CP every time the character improves a pip, but that ultimately just ends up rephrasing the original concept...

Anyway, let me know what you think...
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nuclearwookiee
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your proposal certainly accomplishes what you set out to do. That said, I disagree with the premise that a higher attribute implies a faster rate of advancement. Natural aptitude could just as easily be thought of as the amount of work/training required to reach a certain benchmark. High-attribute characters naturally require less work/training to reach benchmarks than low-attribute characters. A character who starts with 4D in Dexterity will not only reach, e.g., 6D in Running much sooner than someone who starts with only 2D in Dexterity--he'll already spend 15 fewer character points doing so (27 vs 42 by my count). So I don't think I would give the high-attribute character further advantage.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logical rule. How would it look like if applied to Force Skills? What would be the reference attribute?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Logical rule. How would it look like if applied to Force Skills? What would be the reference attribute?

A Force Attribute.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:16 am    Post subject: Re: Attributes & Skills Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Again, the idea is that a character with a natural aptitude for certain things will be more likely to improve his skill more quickly than someone who lacks that natural aptitude.

It's also possible to give the bonus CP every time the character improves a pip, but that ultimately just ends up rephrasing the original concept...

Anyway, let me know what you think...


It's an intriguing idea, but i would still like some hard cap.. Whether its say "once your skill reaches twice your attribute" or "this bonus degrades each Die above the skill you go up"..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say the hard cap is that the number of bonus dice stays fixed (linked to the Attribute) while the number of CP required to level up to the next full D keeps increasing. Using the previous example, a character who gets 3 bonus dice will be paying 12 CP instead of 15 to level up from 5D to 6D. However, at 8D to 9D, he's still only getting the same three bonus CP, so his 21 instead of 24.

Another way to do it would be to base the bonus CP off of the number of dice above "average", or 2D...
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