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atgxtg
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 Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | I would add that Jedi should also raise other skills- not just focus on the force and combat abilities.
If a Jedi is not raising other skills, then he should have to do some things he is weak in- nothing more humbling than that. |
I just wish WEG kept to that line of reasoning when writing up stats for the various Jedi and Sith. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Having said that I feel theres a need to make Jedis less powerful in combat. More along 1st ed rules, or perhaps slightly more powerful than that after all... |
I always thought that the solution was to handling LS Combat in a manner similar to how the Rules Upgrade/Companion fixed dodges in 1st Edtion. Substitution rather than addtion.
If Sense and Control were substituted for Lightsaber Skill and Damage, it would probably help a bit. At least in the low to mid power levels. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Having said that I feel theres a need to make Jedis less powerful in combat. More along 1st ed rules, or perhaps slightly more powerful than that after all... |
I always thought that the solution was to handling LS Combat in a manner similar to how the Rules Upgrade/Companion fixed dodges in 1st Edtion. Substitution rather than addtion.
If Sense and Control were substituted for Lightsaber Skill and Damage, it would probably help a bit. At least in the low to mid power levels. |
Just handle it like normal combat, raise the basic damage to 8D (and it stays that way). Skip the 'Lightsaber Combat' power. If the Jedi want to raise his ability, there is always combat sense.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | I always thought that the solution was to handling LS Combat in a manner similar to how the Rules Upgrade/Companion fixed dodges in 1st Edtion. Substitution rather than addtion.
If Sense and Control were substituted for Lightsaber Skill and Damage, it would probably help a bit. At least in the low to mid power levels. |
Interesting idea and I think there may be something there, but it needs tweaking I think. So if a Jedi has lightsaber at 6D, Sense 6D, and Control 5D. Then lightsaber combat either does nothing (Sense attack 6D substitutes for Lightsaber 6D and Control 5D substitues for normal damage 5D) except I guess allow a not very good chance to parry blasters or actually crocks the Jedi via the additional MAPs?
I don't think this fixes low to mid power Jedi at all (or else we have a very different view of what low - mid power means); but it would limit the large dice pool of high power Jedi. Though you would probably need to restat existing Jedi NPCs since it would be pretty redundant (and basically a waste of CPs) to have lightsaber at 10D as well as Sense and Control at 10D.
Since this weakens any Jedi who was formerly able to get a bonus from LS combat, it does add an additional justification for lightsaber including both parry and attack unlike melee attack and parry which are two separate skills. Since eventually the lightsaber skill is superceded by Sense and Control and then becomes a CP sunk cost dump. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
(1) Only allow concentration if the Jedi can really clear their mind. Make them take one or more rounds to focus and get calm (which is pretty problematic in the midst of combat). We enforce a willpower roll with difficulty based on how calm the Jedi is to start and how peaceful the circulstances. |
I have actually had a gm use that in a con game before.. Had to make willpower rolls (diff was 25 for being in combat, 15 normal times iirc), to try and meet it to 'clear your mind'.
| Bren wrote: |
(2) Only allow concentration to affect actions that can be completed in one round, similar to using a FP. [I don't actually like this one since it moves concentration more in the direction of being a miny force point. |
I have always done this. No using it to affect multi round skills (such as repair..
| Bren wrote: |
(3) Only allow concentration to effect force powers, not ordinary skills or actions. |
Not liking this one.
| Quote: | I always thought that the solution was to handling LS Combat in a manner similar to how the Rules Upgrade/Companion fixed dodges in 1st Edtion. Substitution rather than addtion.
If Sense and Control were substituted for Lightsaber Skill and Damage, it would probably help a bit. At least in the low to mid power levels. |
So if C/S was higher than LS or the 5d damage of the LS, you use it, otherwise use the base skill and LS damage (5d)?
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Interesting idea and I think there may be something there, but it needs tweaking I think. So if a Jedi has lightsaber at 6D, Sense 6D, and Control 5D. Then lightsaber combat either does nothing (Sense attack 6D substitutes for Lightsaber 6D and Control 5D substitues for normal damage 5D) except I guess allow a not very good chance to parry blasters or actually crocks the Jedi via the additional MAPs? |
I agree, there is a problem with lightsaber skill becoming nearly useless. It certianly needs tweaking. If LSC remains a power then the skill has some merit, since it would work all the time, and is cheaper than raising Sense. But as a "default" ability, it does make Lightsaber skill less appealing. Maybe if having a higher Lightsaber skill gave you an extra die? That and the reduced cost compared rto Sense, might make it viable.
Using your example, the only advantages to raising LSC would be the ability deflect and or redirect blaster bolts. Something that cannot be done with Lightsaber skill. But, if the power didn't apply the MAPs it does in 2E, it would be quite viable.
| Quote: |
I don't think this fixes low to mid power Jedi at all (or else we have a very different view of what low - mid power means); but it would limit the large dice pool of high power Jedi. Though you would probably need to restat existing Jedi NPCs since it would be pretty redundant (and basically a waste of CPs) to have lightsaber at 10D as well as Sense and Control at 10D. |
I not sure if I agree. For one thing the Jedi in the above example (what I would consider low -mid level) is no longer rolling 9 dice in combat (12D-MAPs). Instead he is rolling a die total closer in line with the other characters with 5-6D in thier skills.
We might need to tweek the existing stats slightly.
| Quote: |
Since this weakens any Jedi who was formerly able to get a bonus from LS combat, it does add an additional justification for lightsaber including both parry and attack unlike melee attack and parry which are two separate skills. Since eventually the lightsaber skill is superceded by Sense and Control and then becomes a CP sunk cost dump. |
Somewhat. The underlying problem is that by allowing Jedi to add two skills together, they wind up outmatching anything else in the game, but at the expense of being able to walk and chew gum while doing so.
The advantages of 1E were that it was much simplier, and Jedi weren't much more skilled as the restof the group.
THe advantantage of 2E is that wielding a lightsaber is treated as a power, just like all he other Force powers. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, going with ZzaphodD's idea of +1 pip per D for a moment...
Maybe the bonus should be kept as a fixed bonus (like the +6 from Emptiness) rather than converted to dice? That woul have a few benefits:
1) It would cut down on Jedi having accidents with thier lightsabers and hitting themselves. (someone with +10 from Sense probably isn"t going to beat the target difficulty by 10).
2) It would keep the number of lightsaber action down (4D+6 isn't the same as 6D as far as MAPs are concerned).
3) Jedi would get very consistent damage results, repsneting greater Control, instead of just rolling more dice (with the corresponly wider spread, and thus less control).
4) Spending a FP wouldn"t "throw" a lightsaber duel. Going from 5D+7 to 5D+14 doesn't have the same potential as going from 7D to 9D.
5) It's easier to do the math. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | ...I don't think this fixes low to mid power Jedi at all (or else we have a very different view of what low - mid power means); but it would limit the large dice pool of high power Jedi. Though you would probably need to restat existing Jedi NPCs since it would be pretty redundant (and basically a waste of CPs) to have lightsaber at 10D as well as Sense and Control at 10D... |
I not sure if I agree. For one thing the Jedi in the above example (what I would consider low -mid level) is no longer rolling 9 dice in combat (12D-MAPs). Instead he is rolling a die total closer in line with the other characters with 5-6D in thier skills.
We might need to tweek the existing stats slightly.
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We don't seem to agree on what constitutes low-mid power level. The Jedi in my example lightsaber 6D, sense 6D, control 6D is not low level from my POV, but solidly mid level. Given either the RAW (or our house rules mod for LS combat) this Jedi consistently scores 16+ to hit and parry and does significant damage on any successful hit.
I tend to look at Force abilities (control, sense, alter) as being more the equivalent of an attribute, not a skill. Since 4D is the human attribute max and for most species and PCs somewhere around 5D tends to be the typical attribute max, therefore a character with force skills of 5D or above to me is always at least a moderate power character since in some ways they equal or exceed anythiing a non-force user can do with their attributes.
From a skills perspective I assume force abilities of N dice are at least equivalent to skills of N+2 to N+3 dice, so for the example Jedi: lightsaber 6D, Control 6D, Sense 6D, and Alter 5D for me this is on a par with a non force user having around two skills at 8D, one at 7D, and one at 6D or even a non-force user with two skills at 9D, one at 8D, and one at 6D. Which to me is not at all a low powered character. Obviously, YMMV and if you are trying to balance a set of 5-6D force abilities against starting character max skills of 5-6D I see why you like the rules mod you mentioned. That just is not the balance point that I am looking for. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: |
1) It would cut down on Jedi having accidents with thier lightsabers and hitting themselves. (someone with +10 from Sense probably isn"t going to beat the target difficulty by 10).
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Interesting idea.. I can get behind that.. Hows about a tiered bonus though..
1d to 5d sense. +5. 6d-10 sense, +10, and so on.. So at least there is some benefit for having better stats..
| atgxtg wrote: |
2) It would keep the number of lightsaber action down (4D+6 isn't the same as 6D as far as MAPs are concerned). |
That is a good point.
| atgxtg wrote: |
3) Jedi would get very consistent damage results, repsneting greater Control, instead of just rolling more dice (with the corresponly wider spread, and thus less control).
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I like..
| atgxtg wrote: |
4) Spending a FP wouldn"t "throw" a lightsaber duel. Going from 5D+7 to 5D+14 doesn't have the same potential as going from 7D to 9D.
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Actually throwing a FP there would take you from 5d+7 to 10d+14, where as if you had 7d, it would go to 9d. Or were you on about the Light sabers base damage (5d)?
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
| atgxtg wrote: | uot;]
4) Spending a FP wouldn"t "throw" a lightsaber duel. Going from 5D+7 to 5D+14 doesn't have the same potential as going from 7D to 9D.
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Actually throwing a FP there would take you from 5d+7 to 10d+14, where as if you had 7d, it would go to 9d. Or were you on about the Light sabers base damage (5d)? |
Lightsaber Damage. Sorry. I should have clairfied. The max damage roll (barring wild die) goes from 37 to 44 ( a 7 point shift) rather than from 42 to 54 (a 12 point shift). |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Bren]We don't seem to agree on what constitutes low-mid power level. The Jedi in my example lightsaber 6D, sense 6D, control 6D is not low level from my POV, but solidly mid level. Given either the RAW (or our house rules mod for LS combat) this Jedi consistently scores 16+ to hit and parry and does significant damage on any successful hit. [/quote]
No we don't. IMO those with less than 6 or 7D in the Force skills aren't Jedi. I believe there is a throwaway line somewhere in one of the rulebooks about the the skill levels it takes to qualify for Jedi Knight.
[quote="Bren]
I tend to look at Force abilities (control, sense, alter) as being more the equivalent of an attribute, not a skill. Since 4D is the human attribute max and for most species and PCs somewhere around 5D tends to be the typical attribute max, therefore a character with force skills of 5D or above to me is always at least a moderate power character since in some ways they equal or exceed anythiing a non-force user can do with their attributes. [/quote]
Interesting. But I don't think I buy the comparison. Force skills are skills and are used like skills with a difficulty scale that is like the one used for skills. I think a 2D aatribute is much more useful than a 2D Force skill.
[quote="Bren]
From a skills perspective I assume force abilities of N dice are at least equivalent to skills of N+2 to N+3 dice, so for the example Jedi: lightsaber 6D, Control 6D, Sense 6D, and Alter 5D for me this is on a par with a non force user having around two skills at 8D, one at 7D, and one at 6D or even a non-force user with two skills at 9D, one at 8D, and one at 6D. Which to me is not at all a low powered character. [/quote]
THat seems to contradict your "like atributes" statment. As for the comparison, I'm not sure. It is a hard comparsion to make, since most of the Force powers do not direclty compete skills. It is hard to quantify Sense 6D against, Search 8D
I'd even say that comparsion isn"t so simple as N+x. Force skills at low dice often compate at N-. For example, according to RAW, Lightsaber Combat is nearly useless to those with Control and Sense below 3D.
In my experence it is like a race. The Jedi start out behind everybody, slowly catch up with the pack, pass them, and then kickinto overdrive.
| Quote: |
Obviously, YMMV and if you are trying to balance a set of 5-6D force abilities against starting character max skills of 5-6D I see why you like the rules mod you mentioned. That just is not the balance point that I am looking for. |
True. I suppose it begs the question "Just where do the character's balance?". In a campaign, over time, I'd expect the various PCs to have approximately the same CPs to spend wheather they were Jedi or not. In my campaign I'm not seeing the non-Jedi rasing thier skills much higher than the Jedi. They did start out with higher skills, thanks to the Jedi haivng to divert attribute dice to Force skills, |
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | We don't seem to agree on what constitutes low-mid power level. |
No we don't. |
That's progress at least we know that. 
| atgxtg wrote: | | IMO those with less than 6 or 7D in the Force skills aren't Jedi. I believe there is a throwaway line somewhere in one of the rulebooks about the the skill levels it takes to qualify for Jedi Knight. |
I don't recall such a quote. I'd be very interested in the source. As I said elsewhere, we set the bar at about 5D-6D average across the 3 force abilities.
| Quote: | | Bren wrote: | | I tend to look at Force abilities (control, sense, alter) as being more the equivalent of an attribute, not a skill. |
Interesting. But I don't think I buy the comparison. Force skills are skills and are used like skills with a difficulty scale that is like the one used for skills. |
It's not an equivalence, but each force ability has many powers which act kind of like skills. There are more ways to use Sense than there are to use Search. Due to the multiple force powers under each ability, force abilities are more flexible than skills.
| Quote: | | I think a 2D aatribute is much more useful than a 2D Force skill. |
True. A 2D force ability is not very useful since most powers require better than an easy roll after including modifiers. But I'd say a 2D Sense may be at least as useful as a 2D search.
| Quote: | | Bren wrote: | | From a skills perspective... |
THat seems to contradict your "like atributes" statment. As for the comparison, I'm not sure. It is a hard comparsion to make, since most of the Force powers do not direclty compete skills. It is hard to quantify Sense 6D against, Search 8D |
It wasn't my intent to contradict myself, only to point out that having sense of 6D allows success with force powers such as magnify senses, receptive telepathy, life sense, and life detection that allow abilities that an 8D search cannot simulate. The variety of powers is part of why I see a 6D sense as more powerful than a 6D search.
| Quote: | I'd even say that comparsion isn"t so simple as N+x. Force skills at low dice often compate at N-. For example, according to RAW, Lightsaber Combat is nearly useless to those with Control and Sense below 3D.
In my experence it is like a race. The Jedi start out behind everybody, slowly catch up with the pack, pass them, and then kickinto overdrive. |
I agree it is not a simple comparison. Also I agree that LS combat is not too useful by the RAW for 3D force users. That was, in fact, a common whine of beginning Jedi who had a lightsaber. We altered the LS combat rules to make it more useful at low D and less useful at high D.
| Quote: | | Bren wrote: | | Obviously, YMMV and if you are trying to balance a set of 5-6D force abilities against starting character max skills of 5-6D I see why you like the rules mod you mentioned. That just is not the balance point that I am looking for. |
True. I suppose it begs the question "Just where do the character's balance?". In a campaign, over time, I'd expect the various PCs to have approximately the same CPs to spend wheather they were Jedi or not. In my campaign I'm not seeing the non-Jedi rasing thier skills much higher than the Jedi. They did start out with higher skills, thanks to the Jedi haivng to divert attribute dice to Force skills, |
That's why I found it useful to see where you where you were trying to balance. We might agree on a process or mechanism, but because we are looking for a different point of balance we will disagree on the details.
Regarding your last point, one factor may be that since skills increase in cost as they rise, some players will spend points to raise low D skills and diversify, which may prevent accumulation of one-shot wonder skills. Because force abilities allow Jedi to gain new force powers and better use the powers they already have adding points to Control, Sense, and Alter may be more cost effective than adding it to skills, thus allowing the Jedi to stay level or near level with Control, Sense, & Alter to the other PCs' best skills.
In our campaign the players of the Jedi self-limited their character's increases in Force ability (beyond the limitations provided by lack of access to teachers) just so that their characters did not become unplayable compared to the other non-Jedi PCs. I realize that not all players are willing to do that.  Personally (as on of the players) I see such self limitation as an elegant form of mini-maxing.  |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Lightsaber Damage. Sorry. I should have clairfied. The max damage roll (barring wild die) goes from 37 to 44 ( a 7 point shift) rather than from 42 to 54 (a 12 point shift). |
No prob..
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | That's progress at least we know that. |
Yeah. We are going for the same thing but aiming at differernt spots on the target.
| atgxtg wrote: | | IMO those with less than 6 or 7D in the Force skills aren't Jedi. I believe there is a throwaway line somewhere in one of the rulebooks about the the skill levels it takes to qualify for Jedi Knight. |
I don't recall such a quote. I'd be very interested in the source. As I said elsewhere, we set the bar at about 5D-6D average across the 3 force abilities. [quore]
I'll see if I can hunt it down. I think it is from 1E.
RE; Force Skills vs. Other skills.
Sure, the Force Skill are much more powerful. But they are realtively easy to raise. Hard to acquire, but still easy to raise.
| Bren wrote: |
Regarding your last point, one factor may be that since skills increase in cost as they rise, some players will spend points to raise low D skills and diversify, which may prevent accumulation of one-shot wonder skills. Because force abilities allow Jedi to gain new force powers and better use the powers they already have adding points to Control, Sense, and Alter may be more cost effective than adding it to skills, thus allowing the Jedi to stay level or near level with Control, Sense, & Alter to the other PCs' best skills.
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Often they can surpass the other characters in thier best skills. One advantage that Jedi have is that they can do a lot with a handful of skills. They don't need to diversify as much as other characters. They can often just buy a new power than mimics or outclasses a high skill level.
| Bren wrote: |
In our campaign the players of the Jedi self-limited their character's increases in Force ability (beyond the limitations provided by lack of access to teachers) just so that their characters did not become unplayable compared to the other non-Jedi PCs. I realize that not all players are willing to do that. Personally (as on of the players) I see such self limitation as an elegant form of mini-maxing. |
We haven't been so fortunate. What we've seen so far is Jedi scambling to survive early on, hitting a "sweet spot" where everything works fine, and then growing to outclass the other PCs.
The worst case was the character I was running when 2E came out. I had built up Lightsaber to 7D, and Control and Sense to 5D, and the Lightsaber Combat power gave the character an unplanned for power up. The GM had a very difficult time coming up with threats that could challenge he guy with Lightsaber 12D (minus MAPs), that didn't wipe out the rest of the group. Eventually , I had to come up with a new PC and put the Jedi into semi-retirement. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Yeah. We are going for the same thing but aiming at differernt spots on the target. |
Agreed.
| Quote: | | I'll see if I can hunt it down. I think it is from 1E. |
That'd be great if you can find it. I never owned 1E, but those old 1E templates were what I first liked about Star Wars. I really liked the fact that someone bothered to talk about connection to other characters.
| Quote: | | Often they can surpass the other characters in thier best skills. One advantage that Jedi have is that they can do a lot with a handful of skills. They don't need to diversify as much as other characters. They can often just buy a new power than mimics or outclasses a high skill level. |
Agreed. That's why I would count Force abilities as worth more than a single skill of the equivalent level.
| Quote: | | We haven't been so fortunate. What we've seen so far is Jedi scambling to survive early on, hitting a "sweet spot" where everything works fine, and then growing to outclass the other PCs. |
Yes, it feels to me like the sweet spot is fairly small, say around 4D to 6D in Force abilities and around 5D - 8D lightsaber skill. (Though unfortunately the range is even smaller than it first appears as 5D lightsaber & 4D Force is too weak and 8D lightsaber and 6D Force is too strong). After that the Jedi become rather uber. We modified the LS combat skill to make it more useful at a lower level, but less useful at a higher level. The effect was to extend the range of the sweet spot a bit.
| Quote: | | The worst case was the character I was running when 2E came out. I had built up Lightsaber to 7D, and Control and Sense to 5D, and the Lightsaber Combat power gave the character an unplanned for power up. The GM had a very difficult time coming up with threats that could challenge he guy with Lightsaber 12D (minus MAPs), that didn't wipe out the rest of the group. Eventually , I had to come up with a new PC and put the Jedi into semi-retirement. |
Allowing for interesting challenges while delaying retirement was the rationale for the players voluntarily slowing Jedi progression. I think modding the LS combat rules allowed some safety at the low end to make that safer and hence more palatable to the players as well.
It took me ten years of regular and intensive play to get my Jedi (Bren) to that level. At the end of our Star Wars campaign, he had just exceeded those scores. But because of our LS combat mod, he could either have about the same attack as your Jedi or about the same damage, but not both at the same time. By lowering the damage foes with normal melee weapons could still parry or have armor+STR successfully soak a LS hit. By lowering the overall attack total it limited the number of opponents he could take on. But even with all that, the GM was feeling like it was difficult to craft opponents that were tough enough without killing anything except a Jedi. Oh yeah, and after my character used it on a few scenarios we disallowed Combat Sense since it just added to the extreme Jedi uber ness. Typically he used Danger Sense in combat to sort of replace combat sense which (unlike Combat Sense) comes with an automatic -1MAP which again cuts down on the lightsaber giant dice pool. |
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