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Fallon Kell
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 Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | dadofett wrote: |
-Using the Force in Pure Emotion: player specifically states character is feeling fear, anger, hatred, pride, jealousy, greed, vengeance, etc.
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What about love or happiness? |
How about editing it to say "Dark Emotion", rather than Pure Emotion?
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I'd say it should have more to do with losing self control to the emotions then with the emotion itself. The thing your anger is telling you to do can be the right thing to do.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:51 am Post subject: |
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That's not backed up by the film evidence. Nowhere in the films is it stated that a Jedi must be wary of positive emotions, just the "dark" ones; anger, fear, aggression, etc.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | That's not backed up by the film evidence. Nowhere in the films is it stated that a Jedi must be wary of positive emotions, just the "dark" ones; anger, fear, aggression, etc. |
Well there's that whole attachment is wrong thing in the prequel period. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | That's not backed up by the film evidence. Nowhere in the films is it stated that a Jedi must be wary of positive emotions, just the "dark" ones; anger, fear, aggression, etc. |
Well there's that whole attachment is wrong thing in the prequel period. |
That's reaching. Attachment may be a primary conduit for strong emotions, but it does not explicitly exclude them. IMO, avoiding attachment and strong emotions were nothing more than the Jedi version of "hedge laws", which ban activities that are not actually evil so as to protect a person from even the possibility of evil.
Here's a thought. We know there is a lot of conflict between Jedi doctrine of the prequels and that espoused by Yoda and Obi-wan in the OT. What if the OT doctrine is an end result of 20 years on contemplation on the part of Obi-wan and Yoda, taking a critical view of Jedi philosophy as a whole and discarding everything but the true core values, and it is those values that are seen in the OT. In ESB, Yoda counseled Luke against the attachment of running off to rescue his friends, but he never explicitly expounded the dogma of attachment being forbidden. I'm thinking of this as I'm writing it, so I haven't had a chance to dwell too thoroughly on it, but what if that is the answer to the doctrinal conflicts? What if the catastrophe of the Clone Wars forced the remaining Jedi to take a good hard look at themselves and make some essential changes?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
| Quote: | | dadofett wrote: |
-Performing a questionably evil act: killing or allowing killing of a blatantly evil character. |
This should read "murdering", since killing him in combat is a minor transgression, if even that. |
I agree. We'd have a lot of PCs in trouble if that were the case. |
That depends. Is he already out of the fight (eg surrendered, stuned out cold)?
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | That's not backed up by the film evidence. Nowhere in the films is it stated that a Jedi must be wary of positive emotions, just the "dark" ones; anger, fear, aggression, etc. |
So if you murder someone because they're bullying your nephew, that's okay, so long as you did it because you love your nephew, not because you're angry with the bully?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | That's not backed up by the film evidence. Nowhere in the films is it stated that a Jedi must be wary of positive emotions, just the "dark" ones; anger, fear, aggression, etc. |
So if you murder someone because they're bullying your nephew, that's okay, so long as you did it because you love your nephew, not because you're angry with the bully? |
That example is so far off base I have difficulty wrapping my head around it.. Murdering someone, regardless of the motivation, would fall under the category of Major Transgression, which always gets a DSP. Acting on pure emotion falls under the category of Common Transgression, which may get a DSP depending on intent. And don't forget that even though the act in question does not differentiate between positive and negative "pure" emotions, all of the examples cited fall under the aegis of dark emotions (fear, anger, hatred, pride, jealousy, greed, vengeance, etc.)
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
That example is so far off base I have difficulty wrapping my head around it.. |
That's because it was exaggerated for the purposes of making a point. (Enlarged to show texture  !)
So what if we reverse it? What if the Jedi comes across the lynching of an innocent man, and in his anger cusses out and chases off the would-be murderers? What if he's on a lawless world, and comes across a child molester in the act, killing him, angered by the injustices against the innocent?
I say if you're angry for a good reason and you act in that anger, but don't lose self control, you're not doing anything wrong. If you're happy for a bad reason, act in that happiness and lose self control, isn't that wrong?
I expect I have a reputation for trying to reconcile what we see in the films and physics as we understand it, even against long odds. Even I, however, have abandoned trying to reconcile the morality we see in the films to any morality we would recognize. Morality in the films is foundationally self-contradictory and illogical. How you're feeling has as much to do with right and wrong as what you're doing. Probably more. Schizophrenics may get a DSP for making a cup of tea, but not for kicking his dog!
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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I was just making the point that not all strong pure emotions are deserving of a DSP. I am not going to inflict a DSP on a Jedi character because he went to a great show at the local comedy club and was rolling in the aisles laughing (i.e. experiencing a powerful, pure emotion). As for your example, Fallon, I think that, regardless of the intent or the result, the Jedi who acts as you describe will, if not gain a DSP, then certainly open himself to the influence of the Dark Side at some future point.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Urban Spaceman
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:01 am Post subject: |
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"Giggling is the path to the dark side. Giggling leads to tittering. Tittering leads to chuckling. Chuckling leads to laughing. I sense much laughter in you"
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:07 am Post subject: |
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I'm saying that because emotions are both amoral and motivating, it should be a matter of what the Jedi does, rather than why he did it.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I'm saying that because emotions are both amoral and motivating, it should be a matter of what the Jedi does, rather than why he did it. |
But that's not the way Star Wars is. If it were, Yoda would've been telling Luke that it was perfectly fine for him to get angry, just so long as he made sure to make the right choices while he did. Instead, Yoda specifically cautioned Luke to beware of the emotions themselves.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Urban Spaceman wrote: | | "Giggling is the path to the dark side. Giggling leads to tittering. Tittering leads to chuckling. Chuckling leads to laughing. I sense much laughter in you" |
LMAO
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | I'm saying that because emotions are both amoral and motivating, it should be a matter of what the Jedi does, rather than why he did it. |
But that's not the way Star Wars is. If it were, Yoda would've been telling Luke that it was perfectly fine for him to get angry, just so long as he made sure to make the right choices while he did. Instead, Yoda specifically cautioned Luke to beware of the emotions themselves. |
And we get maybe 3 minutes of Jedi ethics and philosophy per movie. Which is less than half the contact time of my first intro to philosophy course. Thus we are left to fill in the gaps to create a usuable ethical system. I will start a separate thread to address this. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | I'm saying that because emotions are both amoral and motivating, it should be a matter of what the Jedi does, rather than why he did it. |
But that's not the way Star Wars is. If it were, Yoda would've been telling Luke that it was perfectly fine for him to get angry, just so long as he made sure to make the right choices while he did. Instead, Yoda specifically cautioned Luke to beware of the emotions themselves. |
Could be Yoda just didn't trust Luke to make the right choices in his anger.
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Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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