The Rancor Pit :: View topic - Would it be evil of npcs to shoot medics?

Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

FAQ :: Search :: Memberlist :: Usergroups :: Register :: Profile :: Log in to check your private messages :: Log in

Would it be evil of npcs to shoot medics?

The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Gamemasters -> Would it be evil of npcs to shoot medics?

Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

Grimace
Captain
Captain

Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:18 am Post subject:

See, it's threads like these that I see as rather pointless. It usually devolves into "this camp" vs. "that camp". So our community, which is already small in terms of game community interest, gets even smaller when people think that their ideas are not accepted, or looked at as though they're doing it wrong. shakes head

Zarm R'keeg
Commander

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 481
Location: PA

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:12 pm Post subject:

vanir wrote:

There is a system of justice for PCs doing psychotic, antisocial and life threatening behaviour. It's called dark side points.

Nicely put. Smile

_________________
Star Wars: Marvels, the audio drama: www.nolinecinemas.com

Hard core OT, all the way!

KageRyu
Commodore

Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:39 pm Post subject:

Grimace wrote:

See, it's threads like these that I see as rather pointless. It usually devolves into "this camp" vs. "that camp". So our community, which is already small in terms of game community interest, gets even smaller when people think that their ideas are not accepted, or looked at as though they're doing it wrong.

*shakes head*

Yes, this is true. It also gets ever harder to recruit new players into the system as it has been Out Of Print for so very long now, and is seen as a Dead System (especially now that WEG is no more - something that happened in my absence from the RPG world and I missed...though only by mere weeks from the look of it). After my development group broke up in early 2008 I didn't try to put together a new group again for over a full year and all I heard was "D6? That's a dead system. Why would I play it?" Even much of the D6 material once on the SWRPG site is long gone now (some items still remain, but they once had much more).

It's a shame too, as I feel this incarnation of a Star Wars Role Playing Game was the best.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra

garhkal
Sovereign Protector

Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14341
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:03 pm Post subject:

Quote:

What, you're suggesting your ambulances have installed weapons? That the hospital has AAA on its roof? You know they don't, but if they did (rumours persist in warfare of combat vehicles disguised as ambulances and the like), they can be legitimately targeted, you know this too, being military.

The Ambulances, no other than an occasional top mounted firehose to knock people back. The mobile hospices, yes. though nothing on top of the tents themselves..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

Zarm R'keeg
Commander

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 481
Location: PA

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject:

KageRyu wrote:

It's a shame too, as I feel this incarnation of a Star Wars Role Playing Game was the best.

Yes! No matter what our dissagreements may be, i think we can all at least agree on this! Very Happy

_________________
Star Wars: Marvels, the audio drama: www.nolinecinemas.com

Hard core OT, all the way!

Fallon Kell
Commodore

Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:12 pm Post subject:

vanir wrote:

Quote:

Why not award them an artillery barrage, rather than a DSP? My philosophy is let them, then punish them however society would. If you're using the threat of DSPs to keep your players in line, you are forcing metagaming.

Firstly the Force is metaphysical, but at least it's part of the gaming rules and setting.
What you're talking about, using your GM role to play the role of God's Hand of Justice within a game is metagaming. First you're introducing the concept of an omniscient divine justice into a gaming world which has no conscious deities. Secondly why introduce an abstract manner of doing what the rules and setting already incorporate, using the powers of GM as a substitute for the gaming system.

You mistake my meaning.

I live in Parkland, WA. A couple years ago, a non-force-sensitive man walked into a Forza coffee shop a mile or two from my home and shot four off duty police officers execution style. Later that week, a rookiee cop found the man sitting in a car. He fired two warning shots, killing the criminal instantly. The people cheered. That is the kind of consequences I'm talking about.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier

Complete Starship Construction System

KageRyu
Commodore

Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:53 pm Post subject:

Fallon Kell wrote:

I have often used this method/type to an extent. However, even then I personally feel when even a non-Force Sensitive character commits sufficient agriegous acts, it warrants a Dark Side Point. I'm not saying your point or interpretation of the RAW is wrong, I personally feel I am still in the spirit of the rules and the context of what Dark Side Points represent. I don't like comparing it to real world, because, well, it's not, it's Star Wars, it's long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away. I do feel that saying giving a DSP is no different than using an artillery barrage, however, is over-extreme (though artillery barrages are not nescessarilly out of the question in some cases).
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra

Bren
Vice Admiral

Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Would it be evil of npcs to shoot medics?

Zarm R'keeg wrote:

Bren wrote:

Shooting a spouse or child to make the survivor talk - maybe a DSP, but probably a DSPip.

This is a MAYBE??? I'd call it a 2 or 3-DSP-and-probably-evidence-that-the-character-is-already-ON-the-Dark-Side! (Okay, no, I wouldn't actually hand out multiple DSPs at one time- but I would place the player on 'high risk for getting another' status for the foreseeable future...)

Yes it is a maybe. There are two reasons for that:

because the rules specifically state that a non-FS gains a DSP only if he uses a FP while committing an evil action so since nothing in the description mentioned use of a FP maybe there is no DSP or DSPip; and
I want turning to the Dark Side to be something rare for non-Force Sensitives. Not something that will become so common that it will result in every veteran Stormtrooper, Imperial Officer, or ruthless and fanatical Rebel freedom fighter being turned to the Dark Side. If most, if not all, Imperials have succumbed to the Dark Side that makes it too easy for the “good” guys to justify killing the “bad” guys. I want the morality to be just a bit less black and white.

For those that want to give DSPs out more frequently or easily –

Do you see most rank and file Imperials who have seen action having 1 or more DSPs? What percentage of them do you see as having turned to the Dark Side?
What about Stormtroopers? How many DSPs, what percentage have turned?
What about the officers?
How about senior leaders like the Moffs, Generals, and Admirals?
What about the Imperial Court and the Grand Moffs and Grand Admirals?
What about Evazan and Ponda Baba - those two mooks in the Mos Eisley Cantina who harras Luke in ANH? One has the Death Sentence in 12 systems. That must mean he has at least 12 DSPs. So has he turned to the Dark Side?

The following comments are general and not directed at Grimace. I am only using Grimace's quotes as a starting point for my points.

Grimace wrote:

Would you rather the GM tell you that your character is being jailed, sent to trial in a couple years, found guilty, and being locked away for the rest of its life - make a new character? Or would you rather see that your character is getting more DSPs and getting closer and closer to falling to the dark side and making them an NPC - make a new character?

I'd go with neither. If the character engages in acts that are illegal in setting, then consequences will occur, but just telling a player that you are caught, jailed, tried, and convicted out-of-game and with no chance for the player to cover their trail, escape, or go on the run is far too rail-roady for my preference. Though I don't know that you meant to skip straight to the punishment rather than gaming out the consequences.

Grimace wrote:

You don't have to specifically be a Jedi to fall the Dark Side. Non-jedi can do it, and even non-force sensitive characters can do it.

But we don't see Imperial soldiers and officer falling to the Dark Side right and left. I don't have his stats handy, but I don't think even Grand Moff Tarkin's stats list him as fallen to the Dark Side. And I don't recall any DSPs appearing on a normal Imperial or Stormtrooper stat or template - I may recall this incorrectly, if so anyone please feel free to correct me. I agree that a non-force sensitive could conceivably fall to the Dark Side - but for me that is a character who is clearly evil, effectively some sort of psychopath, and probably displays outward and visible signs of madness. It is not something that happens to the typical Black Sun assassin, Hutt Crimelord, Imperial Tie Bomber pilot, or even those guys in the funny helmets who pulled the levers to destroy the planet Alderaan. YMMV.

One final comment - we don't play villains when we play Star Wars, but that is an out of game choice of the group not something I, as the GM, try to enforce in game. PCs who are ruthless sociopaths or psychopaths don't fit in my Star Wars game. Avoiding those sort of PCs is an out-of-game problem that I resolve by discussion and expectation setting with the players and judicious choice about who I play with. Or to put it more succinctly, you can't fix out-of-game problems with in-game solutions.

Grimace
Captain
Captain

Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Would it be evil of npcs to shoot medics?

Bren wrote:

I cut most out because I only wanted to address one aspect of this.

I don't believe ANY character stat, anywhere, ever mentions that a character has "fallen to the Dark Side". Some of them have DSPs. Tarkin has one, I believe (don't have my books with me at the moment). That doesn't give any indication about whether the character has fallen or not, though. So you can't simply look at a character and say "They've fallen to the Dark Side". Obviously if a character has more than 6 DSPs it's automatically assumed they've fallen, but any person with at least one could have fallen, all depending on the roll made when they got it. So it falls the individual GM to decide who has and who hasn't.

You want an officer to be that way, then he is. You want a stormtrooper to be that way, then he is. While it's difficult to imagine a rebel soldier being that way (they'd probably go rogue rather than stay with the rebels, as rebels generally attempt to do the "right thing") I'm sure if you want to have one in your game you could just do it and assume the dark side rebel soldier has reasons for sticking with the rebels. The whole point is, if you only go on the premise that you can only get a DSP (as a non-force sensative) is to use a Force Point to do it, then you either have to contend with rationalizing how all those non-FS characters with DSPs got those extra Force Points to do those evil things, or you have to hand-wave it and say that those characters really don't have DSPs if they still have Force Points.

Fallon Kell
Commodore

Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Would it be evil of npcs to shoot medics?

Bren wrote:

Because the rules specifically state that a non-FS gains a DSP only if he uses a FP while committing an evil action

I want to expand on this point.

When a man reading a paper tries to step into traffic unaware of a car racing toward him, and another person holds him back, that person has done a good thing. If instead, that man had fallen from a cliff while hiking, and the second person were to hike 7 miles with the injured party on their shoulders to an ambulance, then that person would be a hero.

The difficulty of the act, the personal sacrifice, and the commitment to success make it more good. Conversely, those same factors contribute to an evil act, making it more evil. The Dark Side Point comes from the commitment to evil, just as getting a force point back when you use one heroically comes from the commitment to good.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier

Complete Starship Construction System

garhkal
Sovereign Protector

Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14341
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Agreed. I have had several captured pcs who were most definitely guilty of crimes, and none did i go with the rail roady option of telling them
you have been tried, convicted and sentenced to jail, without any sort of chance for him or the others to get him out....
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

Fallon Kell
Commodore

Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject:

garhkal wrote:

Quote:

Same here, at least in sentiment. (My player's characters haven't been captured... Yet.) I hope no one took my suggestion to mean that you inform them they should be tried convicted and executed in one fell swoop. They should get a trial if they can be caught. If not, and if they are a large enough blip on the Empire's radar, they should have to deal with occasional airstrikes by TIE Bombers and stuff like that.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier

Complete Starship Construction System

Bren
Vice Admiral

Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Would it be evil of npcs to shoot medics?

Grimace wrote:

I cut most out because I only wanted to address one aspect of this.

It has been said that brevity is the soul of wit. Smile

I also don’t recall the stats mentioning a character having turned, though I presume a character described as a Dark Jedi or Sith is intended by the designers to have already turned to the Dark Side. I agree that the character descriptions for non-Force Users are unclear on whether or not they have turned.

page 85 R&E wrote:

When a character gets a Dark Side Point, roll ID. If
the roll is less than the character's number of Dark Side
Points, the character has turned to the dark side.

According to the rules, characters with 1 DSP do not turn since you cannot roll less than 1 on 1D6 and characters with 7 or more DSPs must have turned since you automatically roll less than 7 on 1D6. Characters with 2-6 DSPs may or may not have turned and their status is unclear.

Grimace wrote:

The whole point is, if you only go on the premise that you can only get a DSP (as a non-force sensative) is to use a Force Point to do it, then you either have to contend with rationalizing how all those non-FS characters with DSPs got those extra Force Points to do those evil things, or you have to hand-wave it and say that those characters really don't have DSPs if they still have Force Points.

I’m not sure if I am following you here. Aside from Dark Jedi and Sith, I don’t think I have seen NPC stats with more than 1-3 DSPs. So we are only rationalizing their getting (and losing) 1-3 more FPs. Rationalizing how they got enough FPs to get their 1-3 DSPs doesn’t seem any more difficult than rationalizing how an un-heroic character like Boba Fett gets more than 1 FP in the first place. And I think there are a number of NPC stats where experienced un-heroic or even villainous characters end up with more than one FP. Your idea of allowing DSP accumulation without FP use fixes the first part but not the issue of unheroic characters having more than 1 FP. So an issue is still there no matter how one accumulates DSPs.

There is, to my mind, a flaw or gap in the rules regarding FP acquisition. Prior to turning a character can only get a FP by acting heroically while post turning a character can get a new FP by dramatically using a FP to do evil. This would seem to create a Catch-22 where would be evil doers can neither be evil enough to turn (since they can earn no new FPs without acting heroically and hence cannot use a FP to do evil) nor can they gain any new FPs by doing evil since they have not yet turned. No doubt this was overlooked or ignored by the designers since the game originally assumed the PCs would at least start out as the good guys.

Since we have run a number of Independents, as a fix I tend to house rule that using a FP at a dramatically appropriate time to do something that the table judges as cool or cinematic may result (but need not necessarily result) in gaining a FP. Something similar is probably necessary if we are to model the behavior and DSP tracking for the bad guys.

KageRyu
Commodore

Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Would it be evil of npcs to shoot medics?

Fallon Kell wrote:

When a man reading a paper tries to step into traffic unaware of a car racing toward him, and another person holds him back, that person has done a good thing. If instead, that man had fallen from a cliff while hiking, and the second person were to hike 7 miles with the injured party on their shoulders to an ambulance, then that person would be a hero.

The difficulty of the act, the personal sacrifice, and the commitment to success make it more good. Conversely, those same factors contribute to an evil act, making it more evil. The Dark Side Point comes from the commitment to evil, just as getting a force point back when you use one heroically comes from the commitment to good.

I generally agree with htis - it's about the commitment and dedication of the acts involved, even though we disagree on giving DSP to non-FS characters. This is also why I do not give the DSP until I see it is becoming a serious issue and continuing pattern of extremely malicious and heinous activity, showing the character has not only clearly embraced evil, but is dedicated to it, and enjoys it even.

Bren wrote:

I also agree here. One of the more interesting adventures in my old "Fall of the Republic" Campaign was when the player group, who at this point was accused of numerous crimes and offenses on a small world in the outer rim (even the Jedi) was brought before a council/hearing, and given chance to defend themselves as the issue regarded whether the Republic saw validation to either bring charges, or extradite the Players back to this world to face punishment. My players knew a week ahead of time it was coming, and I told them they might want to put some thought into what was going to be said. I chose the delegates (among them were Chancellor Plapetine - as the Jedi in the group had acquired some DSP, Yoda - for same reasons, and a number of other Senators from miscellaneous worlds - each I gave personality and internal motivations too). The funiest part was when everyone showed up that day the player of the Smuggler (who was notorious for rash decisions and putting his foot in his mouth) announced he had spent time and knew what he wanted to say, and I though "great, they're taking this seriously." Well, paraphrasing his words, when he was given a chance to speak (and mind you the PC's had almost talked themselves out of trouble at this point) he went before the tribunal and essentially said "I did it. I am glad I did it. I would happily do it again given the chance. I don't feel you should punish me though and ask that you dismiss these charges." The rest of the group keeled over in anguish and slapped their hands to their foreheads, realizing what he just did.

For falling to the Darkside, I have preffered a method I think was official to TotJ, or might have been a fan sourcebook, where instead of rolling just 1D6 versus the DSP total, the character rolls his Willpower. This can require longer before falling, but does give slightly more opportunity to try to redeem oneself. There were also negative and possitive personality aspects tied in to accrued DSP totals to reflect the corruption of evil upon a character.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra

Grimace
Captain
Captain

Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:42 pm Post subject:

Fallon Kell wrote:

I hope no one took my suggestion to mean that you inform them they should be tried convicted and executed in one fell swoop. They should get a trial if they can be caught. If not, and if they are a large enough blip on the Empire's radar, they should have to deal with occasional airstrikes by TIE Bombers and stuff like that.

It was your comment that I took to mean that the best way to deal with a PC who was doing evil was to make an arbitrary decision to deal with them. You even posted a little snippet about a criminal who killed people and months later was found and shot dead by a police officer.

That, to me, indicated that you were suggesting arbitrary justice being dispatched in the place of handing out a DSP.

If that wasn't your intent, I think your example may have inadvertantly demonstrated a method you did not intend.

Display posts from previous:

	The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Gamemasters	All times are GMT - 4 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next
Page 4 of 6

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum