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Neo-Paladin
Ensign
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Off on some damn fool idealistic crusade,
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 Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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While I think Vergre is dead wrong, I agree with Boomer, the Dark Side is in intent and how the Force is used. I think Injure/Kill could be used (theoretically) without incurring a DSP, if the ability is used in defense. In the end, I don't think using the Force to guide a lightsaber in defense of another is any different morally from using the Force to injure someone directly.
That said, without the help of the Dark Side such destructive abilities should be more difficult.
OK, you can start throwing things at me for my heresy now. 
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Boomer
Captain
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 688
Location: Terra Sol
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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I doubt a Paladin, or Neo, would commit heresy.
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Phalanks Balas
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 176
Location: Paris - France
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Paladin, you are ready for the dark side. if a FS character is strong enough to use a force lightning, we can easily use telekinesis to control his opponant without injury... Or he can loyally fight without force power.
The easy way leads to the dark side...
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Phalanks
A day you will be facing the guns of the Black Pearl. You will know what means damned pirates ! |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14341
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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And another good topic from the past to bring back to the forefront (that makes 3 for GMing area.. now need to go back and get 2 more each for the HR and OR sections!
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Quetzacotl
Commander
Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 281
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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I would go with:
First time: atone for 3 sessions and maybe something extra you do in the session (donating money, helping the elderly, asking the gods for forgiveness etc.).
Second time: atone for at least 9 session and it becomes mandatory to do extra stuff in the sessions (and much more then before)
Third time: there is no more atonement. The DPS will now stick forever and can't ever be removed (unless something really really exceptional happens after a long long time and you can see that the character has truly and definitely changed, but that should be a very rare exception).
p.s. I'm opting for giving garhkal the Title "Necromancer" ^^ |
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Tupteq
Commander
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 285
Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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I'm allowing my players to live with DSPs. I have much more liberal rules related to turning to the dark side and much higher threshold of automatic fall to the DS.
I adapted d20 rules about DS taint and removed many obstacles related to having DSPs. I don't see OB1 getting DSPs for teaching Anakin (who has DSPs for sure), but rules on p.140 of SWRPG R&E say that if anyone teaches a person with DSPs, gains DSP.
So, after this long introduction, I don't think atonement should be harder second time or third time. Anyone may have a bad day and kill a bunch of Tusken Raiders just because.
In my games the problem is located elsewhere. It's easy to reduce DSPs when you have many, but the less you have, the harder is to atone (and easier to gain DSP). So, DSPs reflect more generally character's attitude. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14341
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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EH>> So being more tainted is easier to get rid of than being less? that makes no sense.
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Quetzacotl
Commander
Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 281
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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So you use DSPs as an Alignment System that goes from Good (0 DSPs)) to Neutral (probably 10 DSPs?) to Evil (20 DSPs?).
That would also explain y it is easier to loose DSPs when you have a lot of them.
If you swing towards evil (11 DSPs+) little good gestures and actions change your overall rating. But becoming absolute Evil or absolute Good is very hard to achieve... or something like that. |
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Tupteq
Commander
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 285
Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | | So you use DSPs as an Alignment System that goes from Good (0 DSPs)) to Neutral (probably 10 DSPs?) to Evil (20 DSPs?). |
Exactly. Although thresholds are lower and depend on attributes (knowledge and perception). I'm calculating Dark Side Threshold as PER + 2*KNO (in dice). Character automatically becomes dark sider when he exceeds this value and is DS Tainted when he exceeds half of this value.
Example: Jedi with PER 2D+2 and KNO 3D+1 has DS Threshold: 2D+2+2*(3D+1)=9D+1. So he is tainted from 5 DSP (half of 9D+1 is more than 4D and less than 5D) and automatically DS from 10 DSP (10 exceeds 9).
When character becomes tainted, he must roll willpower to not fall to the DS (difficulty 10+DSPs), whenever he gets any DSPs.
Also, tainted character has bonus to DS powers and penalty to LS powers, which is further temptation (DS character has even bigger bonus/penalties). Of course I resigned from DSP bonus to force powers from original rules.
| Quetzacotl wrote: | That would also explain y it is easier to loose DSPs when you have a lot of them.
If you swing towards evil (11 DSPs+) little good gestures and actions change your overall rating. But becoming absolute Evil or absolute Good is very hard to achieve... or something like that. |
Something like that. I'm using rules of automatically getting DSP for certain powers or when using Force in anger, but the character with 0 DSP use Force Lightning (evil power) in anger (passion) on innocents (evil action) he will get 3 DSPs, but tainted character doing the same will get only 1 DSP (although willpower roll will have to be done to check if he didn't fall to the DS).
This way I'm allowing my players to use some DS powers, but later the taint of the DS stay for long (because it's hard to attune last DSPs).
IMO this reflects what we see in movies much better than RAW, where you have 50% to become darksider when you use Injure/Kill just once (on innocent in anger). With RAW Anakin became darksider in EII (destroying Tusken Raiders camp) or during Clone Wars (where he used tortures, killed innocents many times, used force in anger etc.).
| garhkal wrote: | | EH>> So being more tainted is easier to get rid of than being less? that makes no sense. |
For me it makes lot of sense, but it's my style of GMing, I like colorful characters doing both good and evil things, fighting evil inside of them, trying to use evil for good etc. Especially that movies (especially The Clone Wars series) show that lot of this happened to characters.
I think that Anakin had constantly few DSPs and he balanced on the edge of DS taint. Sometimes he was committing evil acts and became tainted, then he attuned (mostly thank to OB1). On the other hand Ahsoka was constantly corrupted by Anakin.
But of course it's only my point of view, works for me, but doesn't need to work for everyone. |
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Quetzacotl
Commander
Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 281
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Do you get Bonus to LS Powers when you are not Tainted? Like "Tainted Threshold - DSP = Bonus to LS and penalty to DS"?
That would make it great both for good and bad guys.
Would be similiar to how KoToR did it. If you're LS, then LS Powers cost less "Force" and DS Powers cost more while universal Powers always stayed the same and vice versa.
Im intrigued by this idea. Could you elaborate a little more on how exactly the bonus and penalties come into play and how you dicide how many DSPs you get or lose for different actions based on your current DSP?
And how did you dicide on this kind of Formular for the DS Threeshold? |
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Tupteq
Commander
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 285
Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | Do you get Bonus to LS Powers when you are not Tainted? Like "Tainted Threshold - DSP = Bonus to LS and penalty to DS"?
That would make it great both for good and bad guys.
Would be similiar to how KoToR did it. If you're LS, then LS Powers cost less "Force" and DS Powers cost more while universal Powers always stayed the same and vice versa.
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I decided to not give bonuses to LS powers for pure characters. Mostly because I didn't want to introduce Light Side Points. I just moved "base" point from 0 DSP to tainted. So, if reference point is a tainted character, then from this point of view if someone is pure, he uses LS powers easier (no penalty) and DS powers harder (no bonus).
I know it's a brutal simplification, but it works for me and it's really simple. It fits well my GMing style where it's hard to keep clean account (0 DSP), but also it's not too easy to become darksider either.
| Quetzacotl wrote: | | Im intrigued by this idea. Could you elaborate a little more on how exactly the bonus and penalties come into play and how you dicide how many DSPs you get or lose for different actions based on your current DSP? |
Tainted character has: +3 bonus to all DS powers and -5 penalty to all LS powers.
DS character has: +5 bonus to all DS powers and -10 penalty to all LS powers.
Values are converted from d20 and I'm still tuning them up (I raised them recently).
The other question is what is LS and what DS power. DS powers are easily distinguished because of warning about DSP. Worse situation is with LS powers, I'm using my judgment - all healing are for sure LS, Force Harmony is LS etc. Most powers are neutral, even TK used to push or throw enemy is IMHO neutral.
I have no fixed rates of DSPs given. I'm using my judgment, but the closer to 0 DSP character is, the easier it for him to get DSPs (and to get multiple DSPs for one action). On the other hand if the character is close to DS threshold, he rarely gets multiple DSPs even for quite evil things.
Also, as long as the character is not on the DS, he always gets at least 1 DSP for use of DS power or while using Force to harm innocent (but using Force in anger may be not an issue for tainted character). This way I'm moderating cruelty because there's no point, where character may constantly commit evil acts and not fall to the DS.
For me it nicely reflects life of Anakin (evil act, atone, evil act, atone, ..., evil act, no atonement, Dark Side).
| Quetzacotl wrote: | | And how did you dicide on this kind of Formular for the DS Threeshold? |
I converted it from d20 (roughly), in d20 Wisdom is used for this purpose and in D6 there's no exact substitution, but Wisdom is mostly Knowledge and a bit of Perception. I don't remember if I found the exact rule of converting Wisdom to D6, but this formula worked well because: gives values around 10 (similar to d20 and exactly what I wanted), favors wise characters (2*KNO), but also depends on attribute closest with the Force (PER, many force defense rolls are "control or PER"). |
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Quetzacotl
Commander
Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 281
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the Info!
But well, you don't really need to introduce LS Points.
You could simply introduce an area around the threshold (like 1 or 2 Points around it or based on the Threshold).
So if we say that the DS end would be at 10 Points (4D Knowledge, 2D Perception for example), then the Threshold for tainted would be at 5. Butting around there a little area of 1 point, it would mean that from 0 to 3 points you are "good" and get Bonus to LS, penalty to DS. 4 to 6 would be neutral (neither bonus nor penalty) and 7 to 10 would be Tainted, giving bonus to DS and penalty to LS.
The Problem I have is that it seams to be much more effective to be an Evil Person. With high enough Willpower you can stay tainted and get benefits for the DS Powers without becoming completely DS.
Because right now I don't see any benefit in trying to achieve being truly good (0 DSPs), you only need to be above tainted...
But well, this of course depends on the playstile of the group and the GM. this is just my opinion on that 
But I quite like the whole concept... maybe I will suggest something similiar to my Group.
The Formular makes sense, and it also gives a boost to the knowledge chars, which seemed to be a little... I don't want to say "useless" (and thats probably just because of our way of playing that it feels a little like that ^^), but not really that important. Giving them a boost would be a good thing |
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Tupteq
Commander
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 285
Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | You could simply introduce an area around the threshold (like 1 or 2 Points around it or based on the Threshold).
So if we say that the DS end would be at 10 Points (4D Knowledge, 2D Perception for example), then the Threshold for tainted would be at 5. Butting around there a little area of 1 point, it would mean that from 0 to 3 points you are "good" and get Bonus to LS, penalty to DS. 4 to 6 would be neutral (neither bonus nor penalty) and 7 to 10 would be Tainted, giving bonus to DS and penalty to LS. |
You are right, it makes sense. But I'd keep this "good" area very small, maybe less than 1/4 of DS Threshold (for DS Threshold 10 it would be 0-2 DSPs). And I'd keep the rest of values unchanged, so it would be (in parenthesis are values for DS Threshold 10):
0 to less than 1/4 DST - good, +3 LS, -5 DS (0-2 DSP)
1/4 DST to 1/2 DST - neutral, no bonus/penalty (3-5 DSP)
more than 1/2 DST to full DST - tainted, +3 DS, -5 LS (6-10 DSP)
more than DST - dark side, +5 DS, -10 LS (11+ DSP)
| Quetzacotl wrote: | | The Problem I have is that it seams to be much more effective to be an Evil Person. With high enough Willpower you can stay tainted and get benefits for the DS Powers without becoming completely DS. |
Note that having 10 DSPs makes willpower roll Difficult (20), which requires quite high skill to success regularly (6D or more). Bad roll will require spending CPs which is IMO appropriate penalty. And also, there is always a risk of failure, and player risks his character (as a GM I would have no mercy here).
| Quetzacotl wrote: | Because right now I don't see any benefit in trying to achieve being truly good (0 DSPs), you only need to be above tainted...
But well, this of course depends on the playstile of the group and the GM. this is just my opinion on that |
Agreed, a bonus to LS powers makes being good more attractive. I propose (by analogy) +3 to LS powers and -5 to DS powers.
| Quetzacotl wrote: | | The Formular makes sense, and it also gives a boost to the knowledge chars, which seemed to be a little... I don't want to say "useless" (and thats probably just because of our way of playing that it feels a little like that ^^), but not really that important. Giving them a boost would be a good thing |
Exactly, I have the same feeling. |
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Tupteq
Commander
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 285
Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, one more thing to consider. Should bonuses/penalties from affinity (good/neutral/tainted/darksider) be applied to roll values or to difficulty numbers.
If difficulties would be modified, then only chances of success/failure would change. On the other hand if it altered final roll value, then effect it could additionally change effect of power (e.g. damage of injure/kill).
Initially I thought I'll be modifying difficulties, but now I lean towards applying bonus/penalty to roll. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14341
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Tupteq wrote: | | Quetzacotl wrote: | | So you use DSPs as an Alignment System that goes from Good (0 DSPs)) to Neutral (probably 10 DSPs?) to Evil (20 DSPs?). |
Exactly. Although thresholds are lower and depend on attributes (knowledge and perception). I'm calculating Dark Side Threshold as PER + 2*KNO (in dice). Character automatically becomes dark sider when he exceeds this value and is DS Tainted when he exceeds half of this value.
Example: Jedi with PER 2D+2 and KNO 3D+1 has DS Threshold: 2D+2+2*(3D+1)=9D+1. So he is tainted from 5 DSP (half of 9D+1 is more than 4D and less than 5D) and automatically DS from 10 DSP (10 exceeds 9).
When character becomes tainted, he must roll willpower to not fall to the DS (difficulty 10+DSPs), whenever he gets any DSPs. |
So someone with say a 4d per and know needs 12 DSPs to be a darksider, and at 6 needs to start rolling willpower (10+6 would be a difficult roll) as they are tainted..?
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