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Quetzacotl
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 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:11 am Post subject: |
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Btw. a thing I forgot to ask:
When you are DS (either going over the DS Threshold or failing a willpower roll when tainted), does the PC become an NPC or can he play on, just that he's evil now?
| Tupteq wrote: | 0 to less than 1/4 DST - good, +3 LS, -5 DS (0-2 DSP)
1/4 DST to 1/2 DST - neutral, no bonus/penalty (3-5 DSP)
more than 1/2 DST to full DST - tainted, +3 DS, -5 LS (6-10 DSP)
more than DST - dark side, +5 DS, -10 LS (11+ DSP) |
Looks good to me. Tho it would still make the Dark side a little more powerful (which, depending on my question, would only be relevant for NPCs). At best you get +5 to DS. A good char could still only get +3 max. That, in the end, would make yodas words untrue, as he said that the dark side is faster, but not stronger.
Thats just my concern ^^ (I just love balance and symetry  )
@garhkal
It would look to me that in that case you would need 7 DPS for being tainted, as you need to be higher then the Threshold (which is 6), but I'm not 100% sure ^^ |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | Btw. a thing I forgot to ask:
When you are DS (either going over the DS Threshold or failing a willpower roll when tainted), does the PC become an NPC or can he play on, just that he's evil now? |
According to the RAW, the character reverts to GM control. I would disregard that rule unless the player proved incapable of playing an evil character. I have no lack of confidence in my players' ability to be evil.
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Quetzacotl
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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I was asking about Tupteq's Houserules ^^
In that case, I know the RAW |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:00 am Post subject: |
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My guess is he would allow them to be played.
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Tupteq
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So someone with say a 4d per and know needs 12 DSPs to be a darksider, and at 6 needs to start rolling willpower (10+6 would be a difficult roll) as they are tainted..? |
As Quetzacotl said, number of DSPs must exceed a value.
To be precise, acrual values I'd use for PER and KNO 4D are 13 DSPs to automatic fall to the DS and rolls starting from 7 DSPs.
Formulating rule using "exceeds" makes life easier with fractions and with division of them (at least for me).
| Quetzacotl wrote: | Btw. a thing I forgot to ask:
When you are DS (either going over the DS Threshold or failing a willpower roll when tainted), does the PC become an NPC or can he play on, just that he's evil now? |
| garhkal wrote: | | My guess is he would allow them to be played. |
It depends on campaign. Once my campaign ended with a big duel where a Jedi PC had an option to die or use DS power and fall to the DS, he decided to use DS power. I allowed him to finish the combat. After he crushed his opponents he turned against his companions (only one escaped alive). Jedi character never played again (and I was using him as NPC in other campaigns).
In my current campaign I wouldn't make my only Jedi PC an NPC for as long as he played well (only because my current campaign is quite shady). In good-guys campaign I'd probably make such PC an NPC (but I'd inform players about such possibility in advance).
| Tupteq wrote: | 0 to less than 1/4 DST - good, +3 LS, -5 DS (0-2 DSP)
1/4 DST to 1/2 DST - neutral, no bonus/penalty (3-5 DSP)
more than 1/2 DST to full DST - tainted, +3 DS, -5 LS (6-10 DSP)
more than DST - dark side, +5 DS, -10 LS (11+ DSP) |
Looks good to me. Tho it would still make the Dark side a little more powerful (which, depending on my question, would only be relevant for NPCs). At best you get +5 to DS. A good char could still only get +3 max. That, in the end, would make yodas words untrue, as he said that the dark side is faster, but not stronger.
Thats just my concern ^^ (I just love balance and symetry )[/quote]
I knew somebody will notice this asymmetry 
What about this:
0 - very good, +5 LS, -10 DS (0 DSP)
1 to less than 1/4 DST - good, +3 LS, -5 DS (1-2 DSP)
1/4 DST to 1/2 DST - neutral, no bonus/penalty (3-5 DSP)
more than 1/2 DST to full DST - tainted, +3 DS, -5 LS (6-10 DSP)
more than DST - dark side, +5 DS, -10 LS (11+ DSP)
But this looks a bit unnatural to me. Why being good is limited (you can't gain points from being good, you only may not get points for being evil)? Also, starting point of 0 DSP makes lighttsider's life easier (he doesn't need to do anything to get his bonus).
The more I thnik about this, the more I'm starting to thing about introducing Light Side Points. This way table could be truly symmetric (with zero as a base point) and being good would pay off (in LSPs, not only in not gaining DSPs). LSP and DSP would negate each other, so if user having 3 LSPs got 1 DPS, then he'd end with 2 LSPs.
My main concern about LSPs is that players could abuse them, they could gather LSPs just to negate DSPs that will come later. So very "light" character could to do lot of evil before he falled to the DS.
Hmm, my final conclusion is that I'm staying with DSPs only (and with actualized table as above), because it's not easy to abuse and seems to reflect movies in the best way (IMHO of course). I don't think it's a real problem when characters start with bonus to LS powers (gaining first DSPs just should be very easy), but if someone saw it not symmetrical, PCs might start with DSPs equal to 1/3 DST round down (although I'm not going to do this). |
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Quetzacotl
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Tupteq wrote: | 0 - very good, +5 LS, -10 DS (0 DSP)
1 to less than 1/4 DST - good, +3 LS, -5 DS (1-2 DSP)
1/4 DST to 1/2 DST - neutral, no bonus/penalty (3-5 DSP)
more than 1/2 DST to full DST - tainted, +3 DS, -5 LS (6-10 DSP)
more than DST - dark side, +5 DS, -10 LS (11+ DSP) |
Well how about this:
[-X; -1/2X[ - very good, +5 LS, -10 DS
[-1/2X; -1[ - good, +3 LS, -5 DS
[-1; +1] - neutral, no bonus/penalty
]+1; +1/2X] - tainted, +3 DS, -5 LS
]+1/2X; +X] - dark side, +5 DS, -10 LS
The "negative DSP" could be considered LSP, but it's still the same scala. You can't get more DSP then 1/2 the value and you also can't get less DSP then -1/2.
Used the normal notation for intervals... [X; Y[ means that X is included in the interval, but Y is not.
You might need to adjust the formular to kno+per/2.
So with the example of 4D both, we now had range from -6 to +6.
-6 to -4 would be very good, -3 to -2 would be good, -1 to +1 would be neutral, +2 to +3 would be tainted and +4 to +6 would be dark side.
Minimum you can have is -6, maximum is +6. |
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Dromdarr_Alark
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Joined: 07 Apr 2013
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Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | 0 to less than 1/4 DST - good, +3 LS, -5 DS (0-2 DSP)
1/4 DST to 1/2 DST - neutral, no bonus/penalty (3-5 DSP)
more than 1/2 DST to full DST - tainted, +3 DS, -5 LS (6-10 DSP)
more than DST - dark side, +5 DS, -10 LS (11+ DSP)
Looks good to me. Tho it would still make the Dark side a little more powerful (which, depending on my question, would only be relevant for NPCs). At best you get +5 to DS. A good char could still only get +3 max. That, in the end, would make yodas words untrue, as he said that the dark side is faster, but not stronger.
Thats just my concern ^^ (I just love balance and symetry ) |
I thought all of the bonuses granted by the dark side disappeared when someone fell completely over.
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Quetzacotl
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| when playing RAW, yes. But we're not talking about RAW here right now ^ ^ |
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Tupteq
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Dromdarr_Alark wrote: | | I thought all of the bonuses granted by the dark side disappeared when someone fell completely over. |
I never liked this rule. It doesn't seem to be true in movies. Also, RAW provide very big bonuses, my proposition is significantly moderated. With symmetrical bonuses no LS or DS is more powerful. |
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Tupteq
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | Well how about this:
[-X; -1/2X[ - very good, +5 LS, -10 DS
[-1/2X; -1[ - good, +3 LS, -5 DS
[-1; +1] - neutral, no bonus/penalty
]+1; +1/2X] - tainted, +3 DS, -5 LS
]+1/2X; +X] - dark side, +5 DS, -10 LS
The "negative DSP" could be considered LSP, but it's still the same scala. You can't get more DSP then 1/2 the value and you also can't get less DSP then -1/2.
Used the normal notation for intervals... [X; Y[ means that X is included in the interval, but Y is not.
You might need to adjust the formular to kno+per/2. |
Looks sensible. One question: What if character exceeded +X (or -X) DSPs? |
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Quetzacotl
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:14 am Post subject: |
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As I said:
You can't.
Once you reac those points, you won't get any more good or any more evil. At one point you simply reached the end. When you do mass genocide just because you're bored or something like that, you can't become any more evil.
If you help every single Person you see get a better life save the universe over and over again and never ever do any crime, not even for "the greater good", then you can't be any more good. |
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Tupteq
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | As I said:
You can't. |
It's a bit incompatible with some mechanics (auto gaining DSP) and you could quite (too?) easily back to light side. Both problems could be solved, but for some reason I still prefer my solution, probably just because it's mine
Also, with small vlaues (KNO=PER=2D) you have strange results:
-3-2: very good
~: good (no result)
-1-1: neutral
~: tainted (not result)
2-3: dark
My solution in this case generates slightly different ranges:
0: very good
1: good
2-3: neutral
4-6: tainted
7+: dark |
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Quetzacotl
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Well, you could also change it to a pips based formular:
Transform PER and KNO into pips (1D = 3 pips) to get your range. Minimum should then be 3 from PER and 3 from KNO which gives a 9 as a result as the minimum.
This way you would be:
-9 to -5: very good
-4 to -2: good
-1 to +1: neutral
+2 to +4: tainted
+5 to +9: dark side
And that as the bare minimum!
When we see PER 2 and KNO 2 as the average, we have a result of 18, which gives us a range from -18 to +18, which is big enough.
You only need to adjust the Amount of DPS you get from Powers and so on.
One could probably adjust it so that the dark side is +5 to open end, but seriously, at one point you are absolutely evil and you can't get any more evil then that. Using another Force Lighning isn't going to change anything at that point. Thats why I think that it's ok that at one point you simply can't get any more (or any less) DSPs. |
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Dromdarr_Alark
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I should have started reading this from the beginning...
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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With these rules coming out from you guys, its getting to where you need a calculus degree almost, to tell if someone is tainted or not...
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