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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Points would be more complicated than dice, and Tactics re-rolls due to the shifting combat situation would be much easier with fewer conversions from points to dice and vice versa.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Points would be more complicated than dice, and Tactics re-rolls due to the shifting combat situation would be much easier with fewer conversions from points to dice and vice versa. |
That would depend on how you run it. What I was thinking of was rolling tactics once and then having those points to spend for the encounter, not rolling every round.
A new tactics roll would require a change of situation, or some new element, and the new roll would be at a higher difficulty, kinda like calling on the dark side. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16400
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Points would be more complicated than dice, and Tactics re-rolls due to the shifting combat situation would be much easier with fewer conversions from points to dice and vice versa. |
That would depend on how you run it. What I was thinking of was rolling tactics once and then having those points to spend for the encounter, not rolling every round.
A new tactics roll would require a change of situation, or some new element, and the new roll would be at a higher difficulty, kinda like calling on the dark side. |
I can agree with mid-combat rolls being higher difficulty, but suppose a character makes a very good tactics roll in mid-combat and causes the advantage to shift (unlikely, but possible)? What you propose might work if you allowed continual rolls (i.e. continuous opportunities to expand the point pool) representing how well a commander's choices affect the ebb and flow of combat. Points could also be used to neutralize an opponent's tactics points...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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I can see both sides of this. I can see two commanders making moves and counter-moves on the fly as the situation changes.
I can see it two says:
1) Each commander makes rolls as he sees fit (at increasing difficulty, or MAP) to show the back and forth battle of wits,
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2) Each commander makes 1 roll. This represents each commander's tactical knowledge for the entire combat.
Both would work, as long as the multiple roll system was balanced to prevent too many rolls.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:01 am Post subject: |
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I'd say it should be
1) each commander makes a base roll
This determines the side that has a starting advantage
IF something shifts (reinforcements, one side gets to a critical zone and controls it, losses on one side) then they roll off again, with penalties/bonuses for one side or the other.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
I can agree with mid-combat rolls being higher difficulty, but suppose a character makes a very good tactics roll in mid-combat and causes the advantage to shift (unlikely, but possible)? |
Yes, but such things do happen. Generally such as result means the Commander came up with some really clever idea that really caught the opposition off guard. Just what they might be would depend on the actual situation and is somewhat difficult to represent in the abstract.
Perhaps the character should have to explain it somehow to justify the bonus.
| Quote: |
What you propose might work if you allowed continual rolls (i.e. continuous opportunities to expand the point pool) representing how well a commander's choices affect the ebb and flow of combat. Points could also be used to neutralize an opponent's tactics points... |
Yes, and yes, although if TPs work like CPs it probably would be more effective to use the points to augment rolls than to cancel other TPs.
Another possibility might be to spend the points to invoke some sort of temporary advantage or use the terrain in some manner. For instance spending a TP to make a nice asteroid field that you can then add to your chase, or maneuvering in so close to a capital ship that it might not be able to bring all the guns in the proper fire arc to bear. Or maybe even attaching to the enemy's hull without being noticed.
I once wrote up a space combat game for another RPG so we could handle big ship battles without having to use the full RPG rules for each ship and came up with a "tactical advantage" idea. Basically the side the with advantage could spend the TA points to bend the rules a little. For instance using a TA point to interrupt the initiative order to act. That could port over well to D6. If the side with the advantage could get two attacks off in a row, or interrupt the enemy to get a shot off before they moved out of a firing arc it could be quite helpful. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: |
Yes, but such things do happen. Generally such as result means the Commander came up with some really clever idea that really caught the opposition off guard. Just what they might be would depend on the actual situation and is somewhat difficult to represent in the abstract.
Perhaps the character should have to explain it somehow to justify the bonus.
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I can agree with that. Write it out or say what your group is going to do, and with a good tactics roll, you get the bonuses..
| atgxtg wrote: |
Another possibility might be to spend the points to invoke some sort of temporary advantage or use the terrain in some manner. For instance spending a TP to make a nice asteroid field that you can then add to your chase, or maneuvering in so close to a capital ship that it might not be able to bring all the guns in the proper fire arc to bear. Or maybe even attaching to the enemy's hull without being noticed. |
Not my cup of tea. I have heard of some GM's allowing the PCs to physically alter their surroundings in their favor when they spend a FP, such as by bringing up foliage that was not there before for concealment, or craters to make travel more problematic when they were on a flat surface..
Things like that i just can't see as being plausible.
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Not my cup of tea. I have heard of some GM's allowing the PCs to physically alter their surroundings in their favor when they spend a FP, such as by bringing up foliage that was not there before for concealment, or craters to make travel more problematic when they were on a flat surface..
Things like that i just can't see as being plausible. |
Yeah, things like that fit better into many of the narrative RPGs that have come to prominence in recent years. I like them (for those games), but am a little hesitant to allow too much of PCs doing things like changing the described terrain (or the like) in Star Wars.
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vanir
Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:39 am Post subject: |
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Long time ago our gaming group started using tactics in a simple, off the cuff method for affecting combat. You can substitute appropriate tactics specialization for the Perception roll to initiative of the combat round, until the combat situation changes.
eg. you're fighting in squads in an urban combat environment, you've a PER 3D but a KNO/Tactics:squads 5D. At the beginning of your engagement with say a squad of stormtroopers you roll opposed tactics and use this value as optional substitute for your intiative rolls every combat round.
This way, commanders with high tactics always seem to have the initiative in their specialized form of combat. It does actually work out a genuine benefit, you're always a step ahead. All my PCs started spending CP in tactics after we started using this house rule and found how cool it was. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:52 am Post subject: |
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[quote="garhkal"] | atgxtg wrote: |
I can agree with that. Write it out or say what your group is going to do, and with a good tactics roll, you get the bonuses.. |
Yup, although often the bonus is somewhat self explanatory.
| atgxtg wrote: |
Not my cup of tea. I have heard of some GM's allowing the PCs to physically alter their surroundings in their favor when they spend a FP, such as by bringing up foliage that was not there before for concealment, or craters to make travel more problematic when they were on a flat surface..
Things like that i just can't see as being plausible. |
Plausible? That depends. it is certainly cinematic. Take a look at the films. Prior to the hyperdrive cutting out there was no mention of an asteroid field near Hoth. But suddenly one existed and was, frankly, a bit too close to the planet for comfort. Based on how long it takes for the Falcon to leave Hoth and get into the field we'd have to assume that Hoth's orbit probably crosses the asteroid field and that Hoth should be pockmarked. But it happened in the films because it enhanced the story.
Same with Bespin. The Falcon was trapped in space and the heroes were pretty much stuck in the Hoth system until they fixed their hyperdrive (or got captured). Then Han brings up Lando and suddenly there is a star system that is amazingly close enough that they can reach without a working hyperdrive. That it happens to be a fairly busy system, and that the rebels are right next to it all this time isn't very plausible.
Now the RPG retconned that the systems were remarkably close, and that the Falcon had a backup hyperdrive (hardly plausible since if it had the heroes they could have used to jump to lightspeed and escape the Empire in the movie).
Most of the clever stuff we see in the Star Wars films usually involves some character introducing some new thing or rule about how things work in the Star Wars universe that we all accept as having always been that way. So I'm not sure a plausibility argument holds up. |
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | Long time ago our gaming group started using tactics in a simple, off the cuff method for affecting combat. You can substitute appropriate tactics specialization for the Perception roll to initiative of the combat round, until the combat situation changes.
eg. you're fighting in squads in an urban combat environment, you've a PER 3D but a KNO/Tactics:squads 5D. At the beginning of your engagement with say a squad of stormtroopers you roll opposed tactics and use this value as optional substitute for your intiative rolls every combat round.
This way, commanders with high tactics always seem to have the initiative in their specialized form of combat. It does actually work out a genuine benefit, you're always a step ahead. All my PCs started spending CP in tactics after we started using this house rule and found how cool it was. |
That's actually a really cool rule, vanir. I might have to steal (err, "borrow") that one!  Although I'd probably restrict the ability to use CPs to increase it (when it's used for initiative), being as character's can't do that with their normal initiative scores.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Plausible? That depends. it is certainly cinematic. Take a look at the films. Prior to the hyperdrive cutting out there was no mention of an asteroid field near Hoth. But suddenly one existed and was, frankly, a bit too close to the planet for comfort. Based on how long it takes for the Falcon to leave Hoth and get into the field we'd have to assume that Hoth's orbit probably crosses the asteroid field and that Hoth should be pockmarked. But it happened in the films because it enhanced the story. |
Those are some really astute observations that I hadn't really realized before. I hadn't even considered the backup hyperdrive issue. Nicely done, at!
Though I would point out that Hoth did seem to be a planet with a lot of meteor activity (as they talked about when the Probe Droid hit).
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | Long time ago our gaming group started using tactics in a simple, off the cuff method for affecting combat. You can substitute appropriate tactics specialization for the Perception roll to initiative of the combat round, until the combat situation changes.
eg. you're fighting in squads in an urban combat environment, you've a PER 3D but a KNO/Tactics:squads 5D. At the beginning of your engagement with say a squad of stormtroopers you roll opposed tactics and use this value as optional substitute for your intiative rolls every combat round.
This way, commanders with high tactics always seem to have the initiative in their specialized form of combat. It does actually work out a genuine benefit, you're always a step ahead. All my PCs started spending CP in tactics after we started using this house rule and found how cool it was. |
I like this option. Almost reminds me of an 'advanced' skill i have seen someone use (South of london back in 02-03) where he had a skill known as Tactical awareness (required tactics of 5d, and a min of 3d perception). You can substitute your TA skill for your perception roll in init. TA was a separate skill for
Ground - personal combat
Ground - vehicular combat
Air
Space - fighter
Space - capital.
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | Long time ago our gaming group started using tactics in a simple, off the cuff method for affecting combat. You can substitute appropriate tactics specialization for the Perception roll to initiative of the combat round, until the combat situation changes.
eg. you're fighting in squads in an urban combat environment, you've a PER 3D but a KNO/Tactics:squads 5D. At the beginning of your engagement with say a squad of stormtroopers you roll opposed tactics and use this value as optional substitute for your intiative rolls every combat round.
This way, commanders with high tactics always seem to have the initiative in their specialized form of combat. It does actually work out a genuine benefit, you're always a step ahead. All my PCs started spending CP in tactics after we started using this house rule and found how cool it was. |
Could one use just Tactics or would one need to specialize in a specific type to be able to use it for Initiative?
I think that's a really good idea.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:45 am Post subject: |
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Specializing for each spot imo makes it cheap to take if it replaces perception for inti. Which is why the GM i mentioned turned it into an advanced skill
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Using Tactics for Initiative is okay, but IMO not that big a deal. Certainly not worth spending CPs to raise tactics skill for.
With the way combat works in D6 and characters taking multiple actions and defenses, going first usually isn't that much of an advantage. The only time it really seems to matter is with starship or vehicle combat, where the vehicles can move so fast and to get into or out of range. |
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