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garhkal
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 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:49 am Post subject: |
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He'd still need to be making piloting rolls for the trench, and since they were going all out for speed would be very difficult.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Mojomoe wrote: | I'm seeing really good responses here.
First off, I hadn't thought to use Willpower - I don't think I've checked that skill once in my entire D6 career  . That's a really good one.
What I'm hearing is very telling. The general responses are, find something for them to roll. Willpower, Search, Stamina, etc. As that reflects my original question, it looks like there isn't an easy way to build that type of tension without having them roll - this game just isn't designed for that sort of thing, which is a totally valid answer. I was curious if anyone out there was having lots of success with non-rolling solutions, so I think that answers that. |
It's not the rolls hat build tension, it's the countdown. Basically you need some way to "show" to the players that things are getting worse and that time is running out. A clock running down is one method; closing walls in another; rising water levels is a third; a lowing pendulum with a blade on the end is a fourth. It doesn't matter just what method you use, just as long as you get the points across that:
A) The situation is getting worse
B) There is a limited amount of time to fix it.
You don't need dice rolls per sey, but you do need to give the players a way to do something about the situation. If you have them just sitting there doing nothing and then kill them all they won't be happy about the campaign. Since most actions in D6 are resolved with die rolls, it usually makes sense to present the players options in terms of die rolls.
| Quote: |
To focus on the Trench Run for a moment, what would you say would be a good way to run that one? |
The key thing there, IMO , is the countdown. In the film every so often we get cutaways of the Death Star or the rebel base showing a graphic and a timer displaying how long until the Death Star can fire on the rebel base. Since the has already been established that if the Death Star fires on the rebel base the rebels are finished, it's the countdown that is primarily responsible for the increasing tension.
A secondary factor here is the loss of rebel fighters. As the rebels lose Y and X-Wings the audience realizes how tough the mission is and with each loss that it just got tougher.
| Quote: | Take Gold Leader for instance. I suppose one way the "almost there!" scene could have played out would be multiple rounds of Gold Leader rolling his (whatever - Starfighter Gunnery?) skill to get a target lock, or rolling to keep the XWing flying straight to make his target lock acquire faster, while Vader and the TIEs were rolling Starfighter Piloting each round to close the distance, and then their Starfighter Gunnery to acquire targets.
Does that sound about right? Each round the TIEs would get a little closer, and Gold Leader would have a little more of a target lock. |
Yeah, although there is probably even more to it. If I were running the trench run scene, I'd:
1) Mention a timer with a countdown to give the PCs a sense of urgency. I'd probably keep a running timer in rounds and drop it every round to ramp up the tension.
-Note: It's important that the Death Star doesn't actually manage to blow up the rebel base, so if time ran out I'd delay the actual firing for a few rounds to let the PCs finish off their trench run. In the film it looks like Luke gets an extra round or so while the Imperial make preparations to fire.
2) Make them spend a few rounds "running the gauntlet" against the gun towers.
3) Give them a few rounds of being tailed by TIE fighters while they try to acquire the target.
4) Let them make the attack when they get within proton range (1/3/7). Considering the difficulty of hitting the exhaust port, they would probably want to fire when right on top of it.
5) Use the attack roll to see what happens. In the film only a precise hit would do the job, so it would probably take a heroic attack roll to pull it off.
Ultimately, you want the PCs to think that things were very tough and that they barely succeeded, but in reality you want to set it up so that their success is practically a given. The trick is in making the situation look much tougher than it actually is. |
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lurker
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Atg
Rgr on your post.
The key thing is to build the tension, and as the GM you have lots of tools to do that ... If they are flying the trench, describe the trench walls closing in, zooming past them and then the tension building in the character nerves, mouth getting dry, palms sweaty, having no room to maneuver much less mess up a skill roll. Now, the AA guns have stopped firing ... why ? Oh no, TIEs coming in, but you can maneuver, can you go faster, its soooo tight a space, more dry mouth. How far away is the target, are you going fast enough to make it?
Just keep building the tension in your description, and soon the rolls are just background noise until the key roll that is success or failure (those leading up to it are just a key in building the tension)
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Though what happens when they 'fail' that dramatic final role? Fudge? Change the diff #? Give them a 2nd roll??
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: | Atg
Rgr on your post.
The key thing is to build the tension, and as the GM you have lots of tools to do that ... |
Not really. Gms have about THREE tools to do that with. The first is game mechanics (die rolls and tasks), the second is some sort of counter than gives a quantive measure of the ticking clock, and the last is narrative description.
Most of your trench run stuff is just the GM telling the players what's happening and also telling THEM what THIER CHARACTERS are feeling. IMO that doesn't really work. The GM shouldn't tell the players what their characters think or feel but instead should present the scene and let the players work the rest out for themselves.
Just telling the players that the situation is tense or exciting or whatever doesn't make it so. The GM actually has to try and get the players caught up in the mood or the whole thing will fall flat. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Though what happens when they 'fail' that dramatic final role? Fudge? Change the diff #? Give them a 2nd roll?? |
Depends. For the most part I say let them fail. Most of the time the heroes can recover from a failure. For instance if the Death Star trench run went bust, and the Empire destroyed the rebel base on Yavin, most of the major story arc for the OT would have still been possible. Yeah we'd have lost Leia and 3PO, but the other major characters could have survived and joined up with other rebels. In most cases a failure just makes things tougher for the good guys.
But, a skilled GM usually rigs things so that the PCs will generally succeed. In most cases a GM can present a situation so that it appears much more formidable than it actually is. For instance a GM could probably set up the trench run scene as in the films and then run it with a handful of gun towers and TIE fighters, all manned by average troops, with the exhaust port as a standard target (easy/moderate/difficult to hit according to range). It probably wouldn't be very difficult for the PCs to accomplish but could seem to be very tough. |
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Darth_Hilarious
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Actually in the Trench Run they DID have a count down. They had to make the shot BEFORE the Death Star cleared the planet, which allowed it to fire its super laser at the moon.
The DS actually cleared the planet BEFORE Luke fired that infamous "Lucky Shot". But Lukes torpedo was faster than the firing crew. |
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lurker
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Though what happens when they 'fail' that dramatic final role? Fudge? Change the diff #? Give them a 2nd roll?? |
Bad things happen in real life when people fail (I've seen 2 helos go down in combat because they were 6" lower than they should have been for their approach, and they were flown by VERY experienced combat pilots). Sooooo bad things should happen to characters in the game when they fail the final heroic roll ...
Do they die, that is up to you ... It could be (in case of the trench flight & shot) they get the shot off, and it goes in, but their ship is so damaged it doesn't clear the trench on exit. Or, they miss the shot and exit with TIEs on their tail and hoping there is a second flight already in the trench set up for the shot in time to save the day. Or, they .... it can go on & on.
We see in the movies where "failed" rolls and character death are still resulting in a 'win'. The A-wing ramming the bridge any one ...
Now no one wants a character to die, but that is part of it & especially if you are building suspense. If they know they have script immunity, why would they be tense ... they are the hero that will save the day regardless
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Just want to add a hearty "amen" to the last few posts by atgxtg and lurker! Well said!
As far as the Trench Run, I would allow it to be possible to fail. In fact, Gold Leader might have been a PC who tried and came oh so close ("It just impacted on the surface!")
It's also worth noting that Luke decided to turn off his targetting computer (probably foregoing the Fire Control bonus) and "acted on instinct". In other words, he burned a Force Point (and probably never was one more appropriately used in a heroic context ... yeah, he used it to kill a bunch of people, but moreso he did it to save thousands of the good guys!).
I'd also add that one doesn't need to have dice rolls. They can sometimes just be used to make the players feel like they're doing something, as the situation deteriorates and gets worse. I ran a very succcessful Halloween adventure one year ago (for my supers group), and I really did alot to make things spooky. I turned out all the lights, played entirely by candlelight, borrowed my friend's horror CDs for terrifying ambient music, and even made small cones to show what the PCs were able to see with their flashlights (see picture for an example).
Then I had my son (who I asked to help me run this) cue up the sound of a chainsaw (which two of the villains were wielding) on his smartphone, and I did everything in my power to make things terror-filled (just like Ral_Brelt talked about with his Aliens game).
I had the players (who awoke in a cavernous deserted cabin) absolutely quaking, terrified beyond belief, mostly on the desriptions they were given (it didn't help that it was dream-like, they were in human form, and their superpowers didn't work).
Occasional rolls to hear creepy things or detect where danger was coming from were used simply to add to the tension. They barricaded themselves in a room, only to have one of the chainsaw-bearing horrors come through the wall for a surprise attack!
All of those little things I did really added to the night, and the players really enjoyed it. My son (who helped me run, so didn't even play) said it was one of his top RPing moments of all-time, and he's been playing regularly for over a decade.
I think it serves as an excellent example of how you can use other things (props, music, sound effects, etc.) as well as great narrative descriptions to evoke the right mood and feel.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Good narration and roleplaying can add wonders to the sense of tension. One of the best bits I ever did was running a Vampire. The PCs were hold up in a building and it was a "under siege" type of terror adventure.
The Vampire was taunting the PCs and dared them to "come outside and say that". One PC replied "why don't you c" then when wide eyed when he realized what he was about to say and finished with, "..uh stay out there!"
That he was nearly tricked into inviting the Vampire in did wonders towards ramping up the fear and tension. The sunrise simply couldn't happen fast enough. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: |
But, a skilled GM usually rigs things so that the PCs will generally succeed. In most cases a GM can present a situation so that it appears much more formidable than it actually is. For instance a GM could probably set up the trench run scene as in the films and then run it with a handful of gun towers and TIE fighters, all manned by average troops, with the exhaust port as a standard target (easy/moderate/difficult to hit according to range). It probably wouldn't be very difficult for the PCs to accomplish but could seem to be very tough. |
So IYO a skilled gm makes it easy to succeed, he just makes it 'seem like' failure is an option..
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So IYO a skilled gm makes it easy to succeed, he just makes it 'seem like' failure is an option.. |
Yeah, but he shouldn't make it too easy. The players shouldn't get the felling that it is a cakewalk. It more like a sleight of hand trick.
For example, I have a bit of a reputation as a "Killer DM" among my local D&D groups, because everyone knows that I have no qualms kill off PCs if they screw around or screw up. I've even admitted to it. So everyone grips, gets scared, takes things a bit more seriously, and tries a little harder not to screw up.
Now, guess which local DM has killed the least number of PCs? Yup, me. I've killed far fewer PCs that any of the other DMs. Yet everyone is more afraid of me as a DM, so they don't screw around as much, and so they don't get themselves killed as often. But I'm the "Killer DM"! |
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lurker
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | So IYO a skilled gm makes it easy to succeed, he just makes it 'seem like' failure is an option.. |
Yeah, but he shouldn't make it too easy. The players shouldn't get the felling that it is a cakewalk. It more like a sleight of hand trick.
... |
That is a great way to put it. 
The risk should be there, but straight bad luck (a single bad roll) should not be the end of the character's fate. If the player has done everything smartly and played well, then the bad roll makes it harder, but no result in instant death.
However, if they are playing stupidly, or repeatedly screw up (bad luck roll after roll after roll) then ... just hope the character's demise is heroic ...
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: |
That is a great way to put it. |
It's really what GMing is all about. A GM is not the PCs adversary.He creates and runs the adversaries, but even so the adversaries are not supposed to win. After all, the NPCs aren't the ones who are supposed to show up each game session. So what a GM is doing is creating adversaries that are supposed to be defeated by the PCs from the outset. But...if it actually felt that way, the players would get bored. The idea is to make things seem much more dangerous than they really are.
| Quote: |
The risk should be there, but straight bad luck (a single bad roll) should not be the end of the character's fate. If the player has done everything smartly and played well, then the bad roll makes it harder, but no result in instant death. |
Yup. There are a few ways to do that too. For instance if the PCs flub defusing a bomb, the GM can have the timer speed up rather than just having the bomb go boom. But again, the key is that the players must believe that they are in real danger.
| Quote: |
However, if they are playing stupidly, or repeatedly screw up (bad luck roll after roll after roll) then ... just hope the character's demise is heroic ... |
Yeah. If the PC Jedi with 4D skills decides that he wants to confront Vader, the best the GM can do is to try and give him enough information to rethink the idea, and maybe give him a chance to escape after he gets his hand sabered off. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It's really what GMing is all about. A GM is not the PCs adversary.He creates and runs the adversaries, but even so the adversaries are not supposed to win. After all, the NPCs aren't the ones who are supposed to show up each game session. So what a GM is doing is creating adversaries that are supposed to be defeated by the PCs from the outset. But...if it actually felt that way, the players would get bored. The idea is to make things seem much more dangerous than they really are. |
I woefully disagree with that assessment.. A GM's role is neutral arbitrator, neither wanting them to lose nor favoring them to win.
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